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Old June 12, 2005, 11:40 PM   #1
roger-ruger
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country is anarchy prone

in the event of political and economic turmoil do you feel your country is anarchy prone? in times like these, what do you think are your best weapons at hand and course of actions to take against lawlessness in the streets?
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Old June 13, 2005, 12:15 AM   #2
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Not to be trite, but my best weapon is my mind, and the best course of action, well, will be the best course of action given the circumstances.

If the SHTF in the way you seem to be driving at, it won't be anything like we imagine, and the best weapon will be a wise and flexible mind. I'll tell you this: I'm not depending on my guns to get me through an apocalypse.

The only thing I can count on is a life of dignity, courage, and honor, and when that becomes impossible, well then, a death of dignity, courage and honor. Anything else is pure speculation.
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Old June 13, 2005, 12:31 AM   #3
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I grew-up during the Cold War, duck-n'-cover with the "nuclear clock" reading five til Midnight for years. Add to that JFK's, Rob't K's, MLK's assasination (and what the heck, Geo. Wallace's too), riots--especially those in Watts--, the rise of the Black Panthers and other radicalized minority action groups, campus protests over Vietnam leading to violence like at Kent State, Berkley and Columbia; then Watergate and the collapse of a second term American presidency. I don't know if it was connected, but when formal Civil Defense programs in schools and communities went out of fashion in the 1970s, I watched the survival "fad" crank-up and continue til the fall of the Soviet Union. So, after a paltry survivalist revival with the Y2K hysteria: "do you feel your country is anarchy prone?" NO!
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Old June 13, 2005, 12:52 AM   #4
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Well said, Hayley.

We are probably more likely to see an invasion by China than a serious civil war or other kind of major civilian unrest. We're still a country where most people look out for each other when the SHTF because the know we'll pull out of it even when there are bitter divisions on the voting/political front.

Of course ... things in human history can change quick. Ask me again in 10 years.
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Old June 13, 2005, 08:20 AM   #5
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Risks of Death

As to the likelihood of widespread anarchy in the USA, I have to agree with the others - probability is not zero, but is exceedingly small.

Noone is going to invade the USA. It's not going to happen. We have the most capable military in the world and are geographically isolated from any conceivable invading nation.

One scenario I could see is local anarchy - say, in a large city - this scenario has unfolded (at the level of whole neighborhoods anyway) occasionally in an American city (think of various "riots"). Even there, I wouldn't worry so much about it. Such events have still been relatively rare, and have been shortlived when they did occur.

To me, you need to think of the cost of preparation for an event - time, money, psychological, and ask if that is worth paying for the value you get out of it (security against the likelihood/seriousness of an event). For example, we were at odds with the former Soviet Union for decades. It is definitely not inconceivable that there could have been a nuclear exchange during this time. How many people built elaborate nuclear bomb shelters that could conceivably allow one to survive (if one could get in there in time) in their back yards and stocked them with great stores of food and weapons?

The US is a prosperous country (removing some prime motivations for anarchy), with a benevolent if not beloved government (removing others, except from the most irrational and rare of persons). To keep and restore order, they have well trained police and a National Guard.

I am not being sarcastic when I say that to me the most rational course is to consult historical mortality statistics when deciding what to guard against. I haven't looked lately, but for older people, heart disease, stroke and cancer were the most prominent. For younger people, auto accidents, and in some areas of the country, violent crime were the biggies.
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Old June 13, 2005, 08:31 AM   #6
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Widespread anarchy? Are you serious? Most Americans are too comfortable in thier lifestyles to want to throw it all away. Even many of the underpriviledged are much better off than they would be if anarchy were to break out. If anything, I would think a police state is a more realistic fear than anarchy, as a large portion of the sheeple seem content with giving up thier freedoms in exhange for security.
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Old June 25, 2005, 12:10 AM   #7
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I second what ATW said
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Old June 25, 2005, 01:01 AM   #8
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Just out of curiosity, what country are you from?

+1 on what ATW525 said.
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Old June 25, 2005, 01:01 AM   #9
texas07
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I am NOT a doomsday profit, but I do read too much history...

no one will ever invade the u.s.? ha!!!
I mean, i'm full of national pride, and i sure as hell hope nobody ever does...
and if it happens, my money says texas is the first to fight and the last to fall (okay maybe among the first to fall due to strategic reasons, but hey...state pride here....)
but to say the U.S. is invulnerable to invasion is just downright foolish...do you think the romans really expected to be destroyed by invasion of germanic barbarians (viewed as savages)? the answer is no, they didnt (Rome was sacked by the way, several times).
historically speaking (i'm just addressing general western history here), superpowers swap about every eighty to onehundred fifty years....they generally do so in MAJOR wars (Iraq doesnt count, hardly the scale of which i speak), usually involving an invasion of one of the world's dominant superpower about every fifty to one hundred years.....
Let's do the math:
America has been a "superpower" for about sixty years (since the end of WWII). So speaking by the numbers (for whatever they're worth, or not) we're between not quite one half and 2/3 the way through our "superpower allotment".
We can view our last major war to be one of two options...a)WWII, sixty years ago, or b) the cold war, won more or less 15 years ago.
another factor to consider is that the last time the U.S. was really invaded was the war of 1812, nearly 200 years ago. on one hand this speaks to american defensibility, on the other, it speaks to overdueness.
whats my point? i'm really not a paranoid lunatic. just a dedicated student of history. these are all my numbers, i made them up, i am not a history professor. But while these figures may be a little rough,they are all in the right ballpark, and they demonstrate that if history really does repeat itself (and I tell you, IT DOES), then America is long overdue to get a buttwhipping on her home turf (or at least an attempted buttwhipping, my figures dont account for who wins/loses, just the fact that the invasion occurs), probably in the next fifty to seventy years by the numbers...
It is easy to think that we are so strong now that we'll always be on top but i ask you:
*Forty years ago,at the height of the cold war, who in Russia could have forseen her current pitiful condition?
*In 1940, who in Germany would have envisioned her devistating defeat in 1945?
*In 1941 (the year Pearl Harbor was attacked), who in America would have envisioned Japan's current place as a major technological trade partner?
*In 1814, when we won the war of 1812, who in america would have guessed that just over a hundred years later England would be our greatest ally in a major world war?
*In 1750, who in Britain could have dreamed that a ragtag American army of farmers would whip their a** twice in the next sixty years?

My point is, how can we possibly speculate what kind of world we will live in fifty, seventy, or a hundred years from now? The answer is we can't... but we can, in the words of Winston Churchill, "Study history, study history..."
we should also avoid such hubris as to think nobody will ever take us on....
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Old June 25, 2005, 01:06 AM   #10
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but as for weapons...

me, a remington 870 12 ga. shotgun, a remington 700 .308 deer rifle, a .357 mag S&W, and a 1911 are headed for the hills to wait it out together like one big happy family...
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Old June 25, 2005, 01:41 AM   #11
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A favorite quote of mine is: "He who ignores history is destined to repeat it"

But that said ... there's NEVER been a country/empire the physical size of the US that has been successfully invaded. Even Rome wasn't our physical size, and they weren't swallowed in a single war. It took a few hundred years of dwindling empire and bad military decisions/corruption until finally the home city finally fell.

Germany is considerably smaller than Texas, and has a population in the tens, not hundreds, of millions. Easily conquerable after they made the mistake of taking on countries with populations many times theirs (particularly the USSR, but also the US).

And can you imagine any army trying to control the armed and weapons savvy US population? Iraq has a fraction of our population in a country an even smaller fraction of our physical size, and the whole US army can't bring them under control. And if better than 100,000 US soldiers can't bring about 40 million Iraqis under control in their small country, what size army would it take to subdue the 250 million Americans in our huge country?

And American troops have body army. Can you imagine how the 3rd world armies amassed against us who do against the 30-06 hunting rifles popping out of windows?

No ... if the US ever "falls" it won't be from military seizure from without, it will be because our place in the world has been dwindling (possibly over hundreds of years like Rome, certainly over decades) and we choose to hand our soveriegnity to someone else. And while I can easily imagine that will happen someday, because the only thing constant in the world is change, I REALLY doubt it will be in my generation or my kid's generation or anytime soon.

And (hopefully) it will come in a controlled process, not anarchy, whenever it does happen.

And in terms of someone "taking us on" ... unless they can take down our huge nuclear force with some kind of amazing defensive weapon, we have nothing to fear. Even if we shrink from being the larged GDP on the planet (currently still bigger than the entire EU) and lose our overall superpower ranking, we'll still be able to clobber anybody of anysize.

The nuclear powers are like a bunch of street toughs standing around an alley, each holding a handgun of different size. Even if you've got a .44 magnum, you're not going to initiate something against the punk with the .22 LR because when he returns fire he will do some serious damage you may never recover from, and/or another street punk may decide to turn on you while wounded.

So ... don't worry about an invasion. Just stay up with politics and protect our sovereignity with your vote and your voice. If history teaches anything, it teaches us to fight corruption and keep our powerful government on the straight and narrow so it doesn't destroy our country from within.
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Old June 25, 2005, 02:28 AM   #12
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ATK525


If you put a frog in hot water... he will jump out.

If you put him in cool water and gradually increase the heat...he will remain there until his goose is cooked.

The sheeple are a lot like frogs.

How's that for mixed metafors?

There will be no anarchy... alas, the sheeple have neither the conviction nor the brass for it...

And our government leaders have learned a great lesson from King George... They are very careful not to peak the ire of the masses.
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Old June 25, 2005, 06:48 AM   #13
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As long as the government and media keep giving the people "bread and circuses" - no problem. Meanwhile the government just does whatever the hell it wants, including the latest Supreme Court decision that the government can steal someone's home and give it to a business. Face it, most of the people in this country are too busy waiting for their own government subsidy and watching "american idol", "survivor" and any other "reality" show to pay any attention to real reality.
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Old June 25, 2005, 09:55 AM   #14
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I have to agree that the Police State is going to happen before an invasion or anarchy.

But the invasion will happen after the police state is set up due to we won't have any weapons (the People) to repeal the invasion and the government military forces will be stretched too thin trying to repeal the invasion while trying to keep American hold outs under control.

America will go as Rome and other great civilizations of the world, from within.

Wayne
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Old June 25, 2005, 05:26 PM   #15
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texas07: Well, I do agree that the US will not be #1 forever - that's just a matter of time... while certainly no foregone conclusion, there are some pretty smart folks that say we are already at our zenith.

That conclusion does not imply that we will be invaded, however. While the US no doubt enforces its' will with a certain amount of economic and military aggression, this does not compare with that used in past empires, in my opinion, anyway. Further, we have a nuclear arsenal that can completely devastate any nation on earth, and there is zero doubt in my mind that we would use it to prevent a major invasion. Nuclear weapons didn't exist in the world of previous empires.

I suspect that when we go as #1, it will be gradual, and due to economic and political factors, rather than an invasion on US soil. Right now for example, our deficit is huge, our budget is completely out of whack, and we're not real popular with a lot of people out there beyond our borders... none of that is real helpful on either economic or political position, and both have long term implications.

With nuclear weapons, there is essentially too much force in militaries of superpowers for it to be rational for them to do battle. It could certainly still happen by accident/miscommunication/miscalculation... but not as a well informed, considered decision.

Terrorist groups, or some small nation that's been taken in a coup by a madman are another matter of course - can't count on them for self-preservation... but they're not invading us either. If we can identify them, we can lay waste to them, if we can't, then they're not invading us en masse.
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Old June 25, 2005, 05:44 PM   #16
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There are some real truths in this thread:
A: Invasion here is virtually impossible, . . . we have too many ways of detecting its occurance.
B: The sheeple like their pasture, . . . and probably don't give a hoot who owns the deed, . . . just keep the bread and circus available.
C: Police state is very much more likely than most other scenarios.

I agree with all of these and would like to add a little something to it. If the Bible is correct, towards the end of time, Israel is totally over run along with Egypt and Libya (part of the aftermath of trucking through Israel). Today, the world knows that such an attempt would get the USA motivated to defend Israel (along with Great Britain).

Because it has to occur, . . . prophesy shall always be fulfilled, . . . GB and USA must decline, . . . or become less viable as Israel defenders.

My vote is the oriental domination that is presently emerging will economically destroy both economies in the forseeable future, . . . making their ability to do much of anything except fight interior battles almost non existant.

Just the musings of a Biblical student.

May God bless,
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Old June 25, 2005, 06:07 PM   #17
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Dwight55,

With Israel getting back their lands, and with Israel giving up their lands, how close do you think we are?

I've been following the Bible also and Israel is under attack, or soon will be, from those forces that surround it. And it looks like Iran and maybe others will be the first to try to take it out.

My only question is, how far along do you think we are and with the USA being one of the only protectors, if not the only one, of Israel, how long do you think it will be.

Wayne
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Old June 25, 2005, 06:34 PM   #18
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With the biblical wording being fairly specific that the invader(s) will come from the North, . . . with the prospects seemingly being scuttled of a truly peaceful Iraq/Syria/Iran area, . . . I think the key to "how soon" hinges on what finally occurs in Iraq & Syria.

If we leave strong democracies in both, or at least Iraq, . . . the time table could be seriously lengthened, . . . as the Iraqi sheeple would not want their bread and circus messed up. On the other hand, . . . if we leave Iraq to the fate we did with South VietNam, . . . I would see it only a question of how soon we could be reduced to a 2nd or 3rd world power (economically), . . . and then the invasion comes.

Even today, . . . we could easily mount successful military defense strategies for Israel (many of us would probably load up, . . . grab a Hebrew/English dictionary, . . . and go personally help), . . . but when our nation is taken over by another Peanut Picker President who scuttles the Navy and disarms the Army & USMC, . . . we will not be able to do so, . . . Israel's foes will see it, . . . and act on it. North VietNam recognized Nixon's successor as a sham president, . . . a gutless political wonder, . . . and acted accordingly.

Such will bring on the invasion of Israel.

In the mean time, . . . keep your powder dry, . . . vote for a strong USA, . . . and hope our children/grandchildren know how to do the same.

May God bless,
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Old June 25, 2005, 06:53 PM   #19
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While no afficiando of the Bible, I follow what you guys are talking about and my guess is from anytime to 10 years? Of course, biblical scholars have deduced the same thing from the 50's too, so while we may think its bad now, we can only speculate as to how bad the Bible infers it to be at that time compared to how it is now. Some key things to look for are...

1) The US breaks ties with Israel (all nations rise up against Israel).
2) A 7 year treaty being signed.
3) The temple has to be rebuilt.

I can't tell from the Bible of a nation resembling the US being present at the time. Does this mean we're going to be wiped out somehow? Maybe we wont break ties with Israel...we simply might not be here as a nation?

Just musings.
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Old June 25, 2005, 07:10 PM   #20
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The really funny part is someone seriously asking Dwight55 when he thinks the end will come. You really think he knows? This country is going to hell in a handbasket, but NOT for the reasons you think.

Last edited by PythonGuy; June 26, 2005 at 03:03 PM.
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Old June 25, 2005, 07:33 PM   #21
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They can try a police state but I dont think its gonna work....

some folks might be sheeple but in every Americas blood even the new ones (must be something in the water here ) is a hate for too much or overbearing authority. Not every American would use it but most would...

the politicians know that......
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Old June 25, 2005, 08:01 PM   #22
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Quote:
The only thing I can count on is a life of dignity, courage, and honor, and when that becomes impossible, well then, a death of dignity, courage and honor. Anything else is pure speculation.
AMEN, Overman!!
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Old June 26, 2005, 12:19 AM   #23
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The US superpower status will go the same way the Soviets did in the 80s-90s and Britain during world war 2. They get involved in so many conflicts they spend a much too large percentage of the wealth of the country having to fight them. For instance Britain by the end of the war for arms had to give all their gold, all the property the British held in the US and Canada and other material wealth to get Rooslevelt to sell arms and ammunation on the lend lease scheme. This effectively ended Britain's superpower status. The Soviets had to maintain order in the Eastern Block, fight wars in many countries including Afghanistan for 10 years of brutal fighting and so on. We already seeing a problem in the US with its imports being far greater than its export and the sheer amount of the budget spent on the military and national defense thats resulted in its greatest debt ever. All that would be required is a few countries to call in that debt and things would collapse.

Of course there are other factors like complatancy that really helped seal the deal with Rome due to their lack of innovation and their defensive view of life when they simply reacted to what the people wanted. There is the bickering squabbles between generals and politicians and such that happened with the Mongols and the Greeks of Alexander the great and various other factors, though all these things come together and bring the end of an empire and superpower status. The US has infact probrobly seen its prime and now on a slow crumble and will eventually take its status as a former superpower much like we see in Europe. Its hard to see it going the way Russia did unless we carry on with the current approach.
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Old June 26, 2005, 01:46 AM   #24
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Wow ... this conversation certainly got silly quickly.

In terms of the biblical talk ...

Quote:
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
No one knows anything about when the end of the world will come. Has Israel really arisen again? Is the current state the final Israel, even though it claims to be a completely sectarian state and not religous based at all? Apostle Paul thought the end would come within his life time, and he was wrong; what are the chances someone on TFL will have a better clue as to the end of the world than the Apostle Paul, who was off by at LEAST 2,000 years (and counting).

Don't start maxing out your credit cards yet -- we're not even close. It's iffy whether ANY of the major signs have come to pass.

As for the end of the US -- the constant trade deficits are a problem, as it means we are literally shipping $$ overseas. However ... what happens is that the foreigners end up with a lot of American dollars and need to invest over here (something that China is currently doing) which is both bad and good; good because some dollars come back, bad because now companies are owned by foreign powers (we've seen this before with the Japanese and Arabs both). Don't worry too much yet ... but yeah, we've got some major challenges in the future.

Many people said the economic problems of the early 70's (remember gas lines and double digit inflation?) and the general political "exhaustion" after the Vietnam war was the end of America as a superpower. Didn't happen then, it's unlikely to happen now. We took a breather and revitalized. Something we did after WWI as well.

As for deficit spending ... as a nation we pretty much financed WWII with deficit spending as well as the rebuilding afterward with a lot of loans and lend leases never paid back, but in the end we still came out smelling like a rose. Not sure it will happen this time ... but I hope it does. We just have to keep growing the GDP to cover it, kind of like some people build up a lot of credit card debt when young and then get sufficient raises later in life that it doesn't matter.

But I have to requote someone that has already been requoted ...

Quote:
The only thing I can count on is a life of dignity, courage, and honor, and when that becomes impossible, well then, a death of dignity, courage and honor. Anything else is pure speculation.
... but that is so dang eloquent.

So live well, keep an eye on the government, fight for your rights and try to steer things in a smart direction. And don't worry about anything cataclysmic happening real soon; we'll still be the strongest nation on earth for the forseeable future (which admittedly is only a couple of decades or so).
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Old June 26, 2005, 01:58 AM   #25
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And by the way ... I'm getting really tired of the Sheeple crap. Yes ... there are many Americans living the good life and not owning/carrying guns (or even being anti-gun) and enjoying their lives without any thought of defense. We've built communities where they can get away with this, and we should be DAMN PROUD of it.

But start shaking things up and threatening our families, and you'll find out what the Japanese discoverd in WWII and Al Quaeda is discovering now; scratch the surface of the SUV driving comfort loving suburban American, and you've got a street fighter who will defend his family. We're the people who got kicked out of the civilized countries and had to build this country from the ground up. We're a nation of football playing red necks who like nascar and hero worship those who stand up and fight the system.

My father was drafted in 1942 and served for the duration of the war. When he got home he packed away his various hunting guns and didn't take them out again until years later when his kids came along and he wanted to teach them how to handle firearms -- then pretty much packed them away again. He currently still has his guns but has disposed of all of his ammo (by giving it to me to take to the range )

He's never counted on his firearms for self defense (never had to) and has not carried a firearm since the end of the war. Although he believes people should be able to own firearms, he's also never resisted communities setting up gun controls as long as (his words) "they make sense and don't keep people from having any guns." (I don't agree with that last, but I respect his right to have that opinion)

These things together would no doubt label him as a "sheeple" by any number of the swaggering "heroes" around here who have never fired a shot in anger or worn their country's uniform.

So if somebody want's to call my 80 year old father a "sheeple" while he's leaning on his cane and saluting the flag as it passes in the July 4th parade -- well, you damn well better not do it where I can hear it.

Just because someone isn't in condition one and is enjoying the good life doesn't mean they won't defend their family and way of life when called upon.
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