The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old June 8, 2005, 10:58 AM   #51
Duxman
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Location: VA
Posts: 1,294
Serious highjacking here

Gentlemen,

I believe we are losing the true spirit of this thread. While these arguments would make a fine thread of their own - in the legal political section - lets stay with the poster's original question:

Primary reaction would be to attempt to get the boy to safety - if the dog was clamped on him, I would approach, weapon drawn and probaby either break the rear legs of the animal with a kick or shoot the animal if the backstop was clear - away from the boy - if not no fire.

Probably the distract and shoot tactic would be the best one. If animal had released the victim, and was a danger to others, I would open fire (again only if backstop was clear). But if street was clear, then I would let it go.

Being a dog owner, (English Bulldog) and great dog lover, I would not want to take out someone's pet. But if human life were threatened, I dont think there is a choice to make.
Duxman is offline  
Old June 8, 2005, 11:57 AM   #52
Trip20
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2005
Location: WI
Posts: 2,181
Quote:
Originally Posted by stephen426
We can debate this until eternity but if, God forbid, happened to your child, wife, self, etc... your view point would most likely change. You will ask why is the owner of a dangerous animal allowed to let the dog escape and harm my family.
I wouldn't ask why the owner is allowed to let the dog escape - because I know he's not allowed. There are already laws in place to forbid dog owners from letting this happen - yet it always will. Just as laws are in place regulating firearms - but every day someone uses them for criminal purpose. C'est La Vie I suppose.

No hard feelings stephen426. And your right, we could probably debate this for eternity. It was a pleasure hearing your opinion, and arguments. I had a good time considering your points, and formulating my retort.

I think it's best for me to step out of this thread for the time being, Duxman is right, this went a completely different route from what the original poster intended - I might add, one that I tried to avoid with my first few posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip20
Please don't turn this into a Pitbull/Rotty/Doberman/German Shepard bashing thread.......
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip20
…these dog threads degenerate into breed bashing that is not necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip20
…just trying to steer this away from an unproductive debate.
And silly me, just when you think your righteous you do the very thing your trying to avoid! Jeez I need to work on my self-restraint.
Trip20 is offline  
Old June 8, 2005, 12:16 PM   #53
ATW525
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 2,688
Quote:
As for ATW525, maybe you are the extremist type who home schools your kids in your underground bunker.
Why is it that you consider everybody who doesn't agree with you to be an extremist? Nobody said anything about homeschooling... making sure young children are supervised when they're outside playing... teaching them not to provoke dogs (most likely the number one reason kids get attacked by them)... teaching them not to talk to strangers... being prepared for an emergency with both the proper mindset and the proper equipment... and other common sense stuff that could save a child's life far better than trying to regulate the world into a safer place.

Quote:
The state DOES CONTROL YOU!
It does not. To use your speeding example, the state cannot make you not speed. They can only punish you after the fact. How many people do you know that always drive the speedlimit or under? That's the problem with trying to obtain safety through regulating what others do... it's only marginally effective at best. People will do what they want, anyways.

As I mentioned earlier, I'm all for tougher punishments. If a dog mauls somebody I don't see any reason why the owner can't be charged criminally for assault, or if the dog actually kills some body I wouldn't bat an eyelash at the idea of charging the homeowner with murder.

That still won't mean that your kids will never have to worry about being mauled by a dog, but those kinds of laws would punish the guilty negligent dog owners and not the innocent, responsable ones.
ATW525 is offline  
Old June 8, 2005, 12:28 PM   #54
Webleywielder
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 160
Reply to Pamick

Of course there are referendums to have laws changed or enacted, it happens frequently in my state. I will never again live in California because of laws enacted by referendum. Members of both houses and the chief executive are elected representatives. Please don't even bring up the complexities of the electoral college. Can't we just let this thread "go back to the dogs"?

I sure do find TFL entertaining!!

"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun."
Webleywielder is offline  
Old June 8, 2005, 03:26 PM   #55
pamick
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 23, 2005
Posts: 126
Webleywielder, I wasn't trying to flame you. There are few things that push my button, but the democracy/ republic issue is one of them. No personal offense intended. I'm familiar with the chaotic referendum concept and it's as dangerous to the intent of the Founders as is the activist judges who "legislate" from the bench.
Now then, back to dogs.
stephen426 appears to be of the mindset that government should be used to enforce what he determines is proper and/or acceptable. Based on stephen426: " owners will be forced to know how to properly contain the animal. Likewise, certain training classes or certifications will allow examiners to ensure that the dog is being properly trained and socialized." He's clearly very comfortable with GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRATS. Perhaps stephen426 would also be comfortable with the government regulating what we eat. I mean based on his line of thinking it would be for "the greater good."
pamick is offline  
Old June 8, 2005, 05:20 PM   #56
stolivar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2004
Posts: 316
dogs

I tend to agree that I do not want somebody telling me what I can and can't do. But the reality of the world is that there are plenty of dog owners that are not responsible with their pets period. I work outside everyday all over town and it just amazes me how irresponsible most pet owners are. They drive all over town with their dog in the front seat hanging out their side of the window. They walk their dogs without any lease or restraint. They put their dogs out on a chain and never go out to play or socialize with them (just feed and water them). they never have any proper way of containing their dog in their yard. I could go on and on. What is worse is that the police do not enforce their rules on animals. They think it is a nusience for them to come out and deal with the problem. I see this on a daily basis and I am suprized there are not more people hurt. Most of the time they will not do anything about the animal until it has already hurt someone. Shame Shame Shame or these type of animal owners. This observation came from 25 years of walking the streets doing my job.


steve the mailman
stolivar is offline  
Old June 8, 2005, 05:46 PM   #57
Webleywielder
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 160
Pamrick, no offense taken.

I like the fact that a forum like this allows people to communicate without the inhibitions normally found in discourse. I like unfiltered sincerity. It is entertaining and informative. While working at NSA I learned that sometimes more is learned from the noise than the signal. Are you listening TFL?


"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun".
Webleywielder is offline  
Old June 8, 2005, 05:57 PM   #58
coolridelude
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 26, 2005
Location: TX
Posts: 406
i would put blame on the owner for not having dog tied up. i have been bit by a rotterler (spelling) i was just riding my bike. the owner did not have it tied up. it bit me. on the arm i punched on the nose broke the nose of the dog, dog bit me on the leg and then the owner came to get the dog off.

i blame the owner!! i love dogs ,but in had to be put down. once a bitter always a bitter. missed a week of work, hospital bills, the owner paid for the bills and my payed 80% of what i missed of work. and the dog got put down. in Michigan(i could be wrong) but if a dog bites human it is put down.
coolridelude is offline  
Old June 8, 2005, 06:21 PM   #59
Bullrock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,624
Webleywielder

Quote:
It is my understanding that the United States is considered to be a country where adult citizens vote to enact laws by referendum and to elect representatives to excersise the power of administration and to enact laws. In other words the U.S.A. is a Democratic Republic as opposed to an Aristocratic Republic. Am I wrong?
In a Republic, citizens vote to elect officials to vote for them.

In a democracy, everyone gets to cast a vote on every issue.

Wayne is right. The USA is a Republic...

Now back to the Dogs, uuhhh, Guns!
Bullrock is offline  
Old June 8, 2005, 06:28 PM   #60
CarbineCaleb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 27, 2004
Posts: 2,745
Quote:
Wayne is right. The USA is a Republic...
"I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the republic, for which it stands..."
CarbineCaleb is offline  
Old June 8, 2005, 06:33 PM   #61
Bullrock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,624
One nation, under God, with liberty, and justic for all, including several Scottie Terriers I know...
Bullrock is offline  
Old June 8, 2005, 06:44 PM   #62
Webleywielder
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 23, 2005
Posts: 160
Bullrock you are not receiving 5x5

I never said the USA is a democracy. I don't think I am living in ancient Athens. BTW Athens was a very limited democracy due to restrictions on who could vote (kind of like Florida). Just kidding.

Some laws get enacted by referendum in the USA.

There are different types of Republics. The Republic we live in is very different from Plato's fictional republic and the Ancient Roman Republic. In our republic all adults with few exceptions vote on referendums and to elect representatives. Plato and the Romans only allowed a narrowly defined aristocracy to vote.

Now if anyone else disagrees with me could you please start a new thread so we can get back to the dogs and guns.

"In a world devoid of semiautomatic, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun".
Webleywielder is offline  
Old June 8, 2005, 07:44 PM   #63
panzer426
Member
 
Join Date: April 16, 2005
Posts: 78
coolridelude
quote} once a bitter always a bitter {quote
first off its "biter". and second where do you get your facts??? thats entirely unture. its just like saying that once a dog, wolf, bear, or whatever gets a taste for human blood they will be a man eater for life.
its 100 times easier to train a viscious dog to be friendly and safe than it is to train a friendly safe dog to be viscious.
panzer426 is offline  
Old June 9, 2005, 08:11 AM   #64
bclark1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,531
i read maybe 1/50th of this thread.

i wish we were a pure republic. too many uninformed people voting - hence restrictive but impotent gun laws, for example.

on the dog thing, i gotta say, if you're moving in close enough to whack it or stab it, why not just take a contact shot? through its back or side, into the ground, away from the kid. that's what i'd do - i think the potential for shock is a lot higher with a gunshot. wrestling or inflicting wounds similar to what the the dog might get in an actual dogfight could only encourage it to stay clamped, but i would think a temporary disruption that gets up into double-digit centimeter size in cross-section is probably going to make the dog at least back off momentarily to try a new angle of attack.

heck though, i'd just fight him with my hands for fun. maybe even tie the thing up, throw it in a cage with some snakes, a moose and myself and see who comes out. i love rasslin' with my 130 pound bernese, i could see if that "training" has done me any good
bclark1 is offline  
Old June 9, 2005, 09:04 PM   #65
stolivar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2004
Posts: 316
dogs

I tend to agree once a biter always a biter, because most people will not train or act any differently once their dogs bite someone. They just go in denial mode (my poor doggy wouldn't bite no one!!!) Like I stated in an above post there is a lot of losey irresponsible dog owners out there. There are a few good ones, but they are beat out mostly by the bad ones.

steve
stolivar is offline  
Old June 9, 2005, 09:59 PM   #66
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 17,958
Let me see, I think I can sum up.
In spite of any evidence to the contrary...

1. It's never the dog's fault.
2. The dog's breed has nothing to do with it.
3. It's always the owner's fault except when the victim brought it on himself/herself.
4. MY dog would never do anything like that.
5. A well-trained dog would never do anything like that.
6. If you KNOW dogs, you'll never have to shoot them or injure them to prevent them attacking or stop them attacking. Just raise your voice and say "Bad Dog". [In extreme cases, you might have to smack their nose lightly.]
7. Anyway, I'd rather not talk about dogs, let's argue politics instead.
8. Why is everyone so upset? It's not like the kid actually DIED!

can anyone tell this is sarcasm?
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?

Last edited by JohnKSa; June 9, 2005 at 10:48 PM.
JohnKSa is offline  
Old June 10, 2005, 05:29 PM   #67
Bullrock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,624
JohnKSa

Quote:
can anyone tell this is sarcasm?
It may be, but I couldn't have said it better. And, I'm a dog owner
Bullrock is offline  
Old June 10, 2005, 07:12 PM   #68
Derf00
Member
 
Join Date: August 25, 2004
Location: Abilene, TX
Posts: 33
My Lab an I were the victims of a PB attack about a year ago so my opinions, right or wrong are based upon a personal experience.

"Would you run to the dog and shoot it? Or would you try to distract it and then shoot it? If it had released the victim and started to back off, would you still shoot it?

Like a fool, I had no means of self-defense other than my hands and feet when we were attacked (that will never happen again), but it is my opinion that since the attack occured in a residential neighborhood, and the ferocity of the attack it would have been extremely difficult to shoot the dog while attacking. Running up to the dog and shooting him while attacking would be extremely difficult, PB's latch on and don't let go.

Distract a PB, not likely, I kicked and beat the PB as hard as I could (I am not a little guy) and it never slowed him down, he was intent on killing my Lab, and my Lab was intent on protecting me. It took a baseball bat and two round house hits to the top of his head before he released.

Would I have shot him once he relaeased? No! As much as I would like to have, that was animal control's job. If I had of been armed and he tried to attack again, I would have shot him.
Derf00 is offline  
Old June 10, 2005, 09:23 PM   #69
stolivar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2004
Posts: 316
horse pucky

1. It's never the dog's fault.
Bs, it is still the dogs fault if it bites you and you did nothing to provoke it. You can get bad dogs just like you have bad people.

2. The dog's breed has nothing to do with it.
Another misconception. If the dog is bred with high aggressive tendacies than it is more likely to be easier to be provoked

3. It's always the owner's fault except when the victim brought it on himself/herself.
I agree wholeheartedly

4. MY dog would never do anything like that.
That is the biggest crock of all. I have heard that line while the dog is trying to bite my head off......

5. A well-trained dog would never do anything like that.
I agree, but 95% of dogs are not trained.

6. If you KNOW dogs, you'll never have to shoot them or injure them to prevent them attacking or stop them attacking. Just raise your voice and say "Bad Dog". [In extreme cases, you might have to smack their nose lightly.]

I really don't know who you are trying to fool with that one. Apparently you have not had to deal with dogs on a daily basis. Over 3000 mailmen are bitten every year. I have hardly every got a dog to stop because I raised my voice and say BAD DOG. (you must be joking)

Somebody is definatly living in kansas with toto and alice if you believe even half of this junk.

steve
stolivar is offline  
Old June 10, 2005, 11:09 PM   #70
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 17,958
steve,

Read the last line of the post. The one in small letters.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old June 11, 2005, 04:31 PM   #71
stolivar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 24, 2004
Posts: 316
Sorry johnksa

Sorry, I had a bad day with dogs. Mostly pitt bull mix. The owners just can't seem to figure out why they have not recieved any mail for last 30 days.


steve
stolivar is offline  
Old June 11, 2005, 09:46 PM   #72
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 17,958
steve,

You have my sympathy, hope things turn out all right.
__________________
Did you know that there is a TEXAS State Rifle Association?
JohnKSa is offline  
Old June 12, 2005, 06:30 PM   #73
Bullrock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,624
Quote:
Bullrock you are not receiving 5x5
I never said the USA is a democracy. I don't think I am living in ancient Athens. BTW Athens was a very limited democracy due to restrictions on who could vote (kind of like Florida). Just kidding.
Hey web, stuff it will ya! I may not be receiving 5 x 5, but I never was much good at understanding physco babble! I've voted a few times. I don't ever recall voting on a Federal Referendum, nor have you...I've been to Athens, Have you?

Quote:
It is my understanding that the United States is considered to be a country where adult citizens vote to enact laws by referendum and to elect representatives to excersise the power of administration and to enact laws. In other words the U.S.A. is a Democratic Republic as opposed to an Aristocratic Republic. Am I wrong?
YES! To compare the Roman Empire to the Republic of United States of America is STUPID!!! Do they expect you back at the hospital anytime soon??? My last word, cuz this is off topic...
Bullrock is offline  
Old June 13, 2005, 11:53 AM   #74
stephen426
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 2005
Posts: 2,797
ATW525,

I hate to perpetuate this off-topic thread jack but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATW525
making sure young children are supervised when they're outside playing... teaching them not to provoke dogs (most likely the number one reason kids get attacked by them)... teaching them not to talk to strangers... being prepared for an emergency with both the proper mindset and the proper equipment... and other common sense stuff that could save a child's life far better than trying to regulate the world into a safer place.
I agree that children need to be taught the things you mentioned but I have a problem with a few of them. How would you define "young children"? A powerful dog can even take out most full grown men. As for not provoking dogs, how does a kid walking home from school constitue provoking a dog? Nothing to argue about with teaching kids not to talk to strangers. As for being prepared for emergencies with the proper mindset AND THE PROPER EQUIPMENT... How about we make sure our kids are always armed? As for watching kids every second of the day, it is not possible or practical. You rely on the government to keep your kids safe when they are not directly under your supervision. This is done by having laws in place and law enforcement to enfore those laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ATW525
It does not. To use your speeding example, the state cannot make you not speed. They can only punish you after the fact. How many people do you know that always drive the speedlimit or under? That's the problem with trying to obtain safety through regulating what others do... it's only marginally effective at best. People will do what they want, anyways.
If you follow my reasoning, the government will eventually STOP you from speeding. Fines are mainly a deterrent as you can physically put the pedal to the metal in any car and make it speed (assuming the car is capable of surpassing the speed limit of course). If these deterrents do not work, the goverment will place stiffer penalties including arresting you. If you do not think that being thrown in jail is an effective way at stopping you from doing something, in this illustration - speeding, than you are delusional.

People are effectively controlled on a daily basis by the laws that are put in place due to the penalties they have to face. These laws are highly effective as most people abide by them. Those that do not are penalized if and when they get caught. If you don't believe me, make sure you speed every time you get in your car. You will be controlled!

As for your last 2 lines, what will charging a home owner with murder do to bring your child back from the grave? How will a scarred child lead a normal life? Can you count on people to be responsible for their own actions? That is not the norm in todays society. People must be controlled to some extent and we are blessed to live in a country where we have a say in who controls us and what laws we allow to control us.
__________________
The ATF should be a convenience store instead of a government agency!
stephen426 is offline  
Old June 13, 2005, 12:57 PM   #75
ATW525
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 14, 2005
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 2,688
stephen426 -

Not sure what to tell you, you seem to have countered your own points and answered your own questions better than I could.
ATW525 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.14054 seconds with 8 queries