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Old June 7, 2005, 09:24 AM   #1
nug_38
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Dog attack

I was surfing the web and I came accross this story.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/...s-dog05s1.html

Assuming that you were a witness at the scene of the attack againts the boy, and that you were CC, how would you react? Would you run to the dog and shoot it? Or would you try to distract it and then shoot it? If it had released the victim and started to back off, would you still shoot it?

Thanks guys!

nug
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Old June 7, 2005, 10:50 AM   #2
Garand Illusion
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No ... wouldn't shoot at a dog that has clamped on to a kid.

I'd bash in its head with anything I could find -- stab it with a pocket knife (if I still had one the TSA hadn't taken away) or whatever I had to do. I'd at least turn it's attention to me.

Once I got the dog away from the kid ... if it was still a threat to me or others and I could do so safely (doubtful) sure. Got no problem with shooting an aggressive dog.
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Old June 7, 2005, 10:59 AM   #3
CarbineCaleb
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If he's actually holding the boy in his teeth, I'd start kicking the dog in the abdomen to make him let go, and if that didn't work, just hold the gun against his abdomen - can't miss at zero inches. Once he lets, go, show him the rest of the bullets. If he is superdog and doesn't let go when shot, give him the rest, point blank - you can easily take a spinal shot, aiming straight down, just hold it against and pull trigger.

I would be real happy if pit bulls didn't exist - they're a powerful, aggressive breed to begin with, and too often, don't seem to have responsible owners to properly train and restrain them.

I am a doglover, btw, but if you have a breed that dangerous engaged in a serious attack on a person - he is toast.
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Old June 7, 2005, 11:19 AM   #4
Trip20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarbineCaleb
I am a doglover, btw, but if you have a breed that dangerous engaged in a serious attack on a person - he is toast.
That goes for any dog Caleb... any DOG engaged in a serious attack should be toast... right? Or are you saying a Lab mauling a child is going to get Scooby snacks instead of JHP's?

Please don't turn this into a Pitbull/Rotty/Doberman/German Shepard bashing thread....... it's useless and plain untrue.
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Old June 7, 2005, 11:31 AM   #5
CarbineCaleb
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- No, I am not saying another breed would get scooby snacks.
- I have owned a wonderful German Shepherd myself
- I know it's possible for dogs of all breeds to be well behaved
- In addition to "civilian" experience, I narrowly escaped being a veterinarian and worked in a veterinary hospital for a few months and handled most all of them - because I was the big guy there, I got all the big dogs, and no, I wasn't afraid of them.
- I do also know that actual "breeds" of dogs are selectively chosen and bred for certain characterstics, both physical and mental - they're not averaged out. This selection has a real effect in both cases. It's genetics - you're kidding yourself if you think they're all the same.
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Old June 7, 2005, 11:40 AM   #6
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Caleb

I don't feel they're all the same... but these dog threads degenerate into breed bashing that is not necessary.

I know certain breeds have natural aggressive tendancies, where others have much less of the same. Your correct, to ignore this, one would be kidding oneself.

But, so much of the above really relies on the owner, as your proof positive of this. Your German Shepard (I'm assuming) wasn't a rampant killer... you raised it properly.

I wasn't flaming you, just trying to steer this away from an unproductive debate.

We stand up against the use of the term "assault weapon" stating they're not more deadly than any other firearm.

While guns are inanimate objects - and their use is SOLEY dependant upon their owner, I feel dogs should be treated the same way.

Even though a dogs own natural tendancies are a factor (where a gun does not have this factor), when owned and used properly, "aggressive breeds" (assault weapons) should be no more deadly than what is considered a "safe breed" (non-assault weapon) .
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Old June 7, 2005, 11:52 AM   #7
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thats very true. some breeds like rotties and pit bulls have more tendency towards being aggressive/protective. however raised properly they will be no more/less dangerous than the neighours toy poodle. a funny fact, more dog bites requiring surgery every year are caused by cocker spaniels and labs than by german shepherds, rottweilers, or pitt bulls.
its easier to make a dog friendly and trustworthy than it is to make a dog aggressive. and no dog should ever be around any child (or adult for that matter) without the owner being present. even the nicest safest family dog could hurt a child by getting to rambuntcious or turn around and knock a kid down.
personally...I wouldnt shoot due to risk of hitting the child, or adult as the case could be. I would try to make the dog let go, chase it away, and as said above, if possible to shoot the dog safely (if it was still a threat) Id shoot.
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Old June 7, 2005, 12:12 PM   #8
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Well, to avoid a cycle of flames I will tell here only what I think we can further agree upon:

- Personality is due to two things with about equal weight - genetics and environment

- If the dog is treated with kindness, and especially in the case of powerful, dominant breeds (pitt bulls, bull mastiffs, rottweilers;to a lesser extent, shepherds and dobermans), also firmness, and trained while still young/small, he will probably be ok.

- I can tell you, I *love* dogs - no doubt in my mind that most dogs are a lot nicer than most people Still, there's no doubt that some of them, without provocation, and off their territory - will go after you; has happened to me more than once. If you are small and/or panic, that is really, really bad news.
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Old June 7, 2005, 12:15 PM   #9
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Couldn't agree more Caleb


Edit: Oops, I agree minus genetics and environment having equal weight, but that's probably another can of worms which need not be open.
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Old June 7, 2005, 12:36 PM   #10
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Quickest way to release a clamped canine jaw on a person ,...is to grab one of it's front limbs/arms and twist it hard to try to break/fracture it.
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Old June 7, 2005, 12:57 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trip20
I don't feel they're all the same... but these dog threads degenerate into breed bashing that is not necessary.

I know certain breeds have natural aggressive tendancies, where others have much less of the same. Your correct, to ignore this, one would be kidding oneself.

But, so much of the above really relies on the owner, as your proof positive of this. Your German Shepard (I'm assuming) wasn't a rampant killer... you raised it properly.

I wasn't flaming you, just trying to steer this away from an unproductive debate.

We stand up against the use of the term "assault weapon" stating they're not more deadly than any other firearm.

While guns are inanimate objects - and their use is SOLEY dependant upon their owner, I feel dogs should be treated the same way.

Even though a dogs own natural tendancies are a factor (where a gun does not have this factor), when owned and used properly, "aggressive breeds" (assault weapons) should be no more deadly than what is considered a "safe breed" (non-assault weapon) .
Trip,

This is not a flame and I am not bashing so please don't take this as a personal attack. Certain breeds, like certain weapons, ARE DEADLIER!

If a chihuahua got loose and mauled someone, then could just punt it into the next county. If a pit bull or rottweiler jumped you, that would be a different story altogether. We are not only talking about power and size, which indicates the animal's physical ability to kill, but genetics and behavioral characteristics. Why do pit bulls have such a bad rap? Because they are agressive dogs. Are there nice pits out there. I'm sure there are. Pits like Sharpeis were commonly used in dog fights. This affects their personalities. How many cases have you heard of labrador maulings? I'm sure they are a lot fewer because the breed is more protective by nature rather than agressive. A lab can be trained to be agressive and would probably be agressive if constantly abused, but pits have to be trained not to be agressive. I have an 85 lb. female akita. Akitas are also on the agressive dog breed list. She has never been abused and has been treated very well by my wife and myself since she was born. She will, however, tear apart any dog that gives her crap. That is in her nature. Akitas also have tremendous prey drive and love to chase things. They may just want to play, but pouncing and biting (especially when we are talking about an 85 lb. dog) is not considered playing when people are on the receiving end.

My point is that too many people out there don't invest a sufficient amount of time training and socializing these powerful breeds to make them "safe" around people. I feel owners of these powerful and traditionally agressive breeds should have special licensing for their dogs which can only be attained through special training and socializing classes. A specialist should then evaluate whether the dog should ever be allowed off leash or contained in an inspected and safe cage. This may seem draconian and like those anti-gun people but dogs can bite on their own while guns cannot shoot on their own. At the same time, guns cannot escape on their own and wander freely. My dog climbed on my AC unit and jumped my fence. Dogs are smart and, with enough time, will find any escape routes that exist.

As for certain guns being deadlier, would you like to face a person armed with a machine gun while you only had a mouse gun? Certain guns are deadlier. Do I feel that we need to limit our personal freedoms for the safety of society on a whole? To some degree, yes. For those wanting to own assualt weapons, they should have additional screening and licensing because they have a greater resoinsibility to keep those weapons out of the hands of people whould should not have them. If these steps are taken further, I know they can be used by gun grabbers, but there has to be a balance between just letting the general public have access to whatever they want to get their hands on.

I am ready for some bashing now so I'll just put on my flame suit. If you guys are honest with yourselves, you will find some truth in my comments.
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Old June 7, 2005, 01:03 PM   #12
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Now to respond to the original post...

The dog is probably not standing still with the victim clampred in its mouth. Many of these dogs shake their victims violently and use their front paws to push their victims while they tear at their flesh. Firing from a distance could endanger the person being bit even more. I would run over to the dog and kick the crap out of it. Breaking a few ribs ought to get its attention. If the dog doesn't let go, I would pull out my folding knife and slit its throat from ear to ear. Either that or pop a few rounds into it from contact distance.

I am a dog lover but I've heard once a biter, always a biter. If it is just a nip, than it is no big deal. If the dog is going for the neck and trying to kill the person (provided he isn't a BG trying to rob my house) it should be put down.
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Old June 7, 2005, 01:06 PM   #13
CarbineCaleb
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Since this stuff is in "tactics" - some doggie body language

- Body loose, face loose, tail wagging - he's relaxed, friendly
- Bounding, lunges with head down and haunches high, eyes bright, may whack ground with paws - let's play!
- Fur up - bad sign
- Body real stiff, and turns at a right angle to you to show you his profile and stares at you - he is flipping you the bird, and saying Molon Labe (that's not an attack, but a challenge)
- Tail down or ears flattened, he's afraid, even if barking
- Tail up, ears up, body stiff, eyes steely, moving forward aggressively, no barking - imminent attack (no need to bark when decision is made)
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Old June 7, 2005, 01:20 PM   #14
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Caleb,

You forgot to mention what the dogs intentions are when he already has some kid by the throat and is about to rip out the kid's larynx.

Good analysis of doggie body language though. The play mode is especially accurate for my dog.
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Old June 7, 2005, 01:29 PM   #15
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You pasted my entire post, but it's obvious you didn't comprehend a bit of it.
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Old June 7, 2005, 01:36 PM   #16
CarbineCaleb
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I haven't actually seen bears do it, but from what I've read, they will also do the Molon Labe posture I've seen a lot of dogs do that one though... usually with other dogs.

If anyone is really, really interested in canine body language, it's been studied for many years by biologists and others, and a real nice book is one by Stanley Coren, entitled "How to Speak Dog" (and no, it's not about verbal communication with the dog ). Coren is a real academic, so it's awfully dry, but it is still fascinating stuff, and he goes all the way back to canine observations and illustrations from the biologist Charles Darwin in the 19th century. Very cool if you really like this sort of thing, but I must warn you, there is an entire chapter, for example on tail language, called "tail talk"!
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Old June 7, 2005, 01:52 PM   #17
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This one is 15lbs, and considered armed and dangerous!!!
I wish you guys would lighten up on dog breeds. Who cares...

Last edited by Bullrock; October 9, 2005 at 05:56 PM.
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Old June 7, 2005, 01:57 PM   #18
CarbineCaleb
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My Sweetie

She has gone to that great meadow in the sky a few years back...


Nice photo, bullrock!
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Samantha2.jpg (53.0 KB, 1152 views)
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Old June 7, 2005, 01:57 PM   #19
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Amen to carbine caleb!
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Old June 7, 2005, 02:02 PM   #20
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http://www.dogbitelaw.com/PAGES/statistics.html

Read the section on dogs that most frequently bite.
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Old June 7, 2005, 02:30 PM   #21
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We had a pit bull attack in my neighborhood just 3 weeks ago

The pit bull owner had the dog off leash in the front yard. The dog charged out of the yard to attack a Lab being walked on a leash. The Lab owner attempted to pull his dog to out of harms way, was knocked to the ground and sustained an injury that resulted in loss of conciousness. The Lab required surgery.

I always tell people who ask why I carry a CCW that it is as much for defense from dog attack as anything else. I have been charged by large dogs enough times while walking my dog over the years to be convinced a use of deadly force situation is too probable to ignore being prepared for.

When I was with Special Forces I attended a class on Attack/Sentry/Tracking Dogs. All students were given protective clothing and subjected to attack by Malinous (Sp?). It became very clear that if the dog is not stopped before contact is made, serious injury is a certainty and unless the dog is incapacitated in less than 5 seconds, you will be incapacitated and possibly mortally injured. I don't think most people realize just how overwelmingly painful and destructive the bite of a dog can be.

Regarding the scenario of this thread, here is what I would do.

1. Move to contact range because shooting at a distance is too risky and I have only seconds to stop the attack before the risk of fatal injury to the boy is very high.
2. Because long ago I have accepted the fact that in this scenario I am certainly going to be seriously injured, I am at least somewhat psychologically armored and will have more focus.
3. Attempt to jam and keep my weaponless arm into the mouth of the dog in order to prevent multiple bites to my body and especially my weapon arm.
4. Fire my weapon at contact range into the CNS of the dog at an angle away from the boy and continue firing in multiple locations of the dogs CNS, CPS and shoulders.
5. Assuage the regret of my probable maiming with the relief of saving a boy's life.

Dogs with a genetic history of being bred to attack other animals are extremely difficult to socialize to the point they will not eventually deliver a devastating bite to someone. In the last 4 years we have had 4 attacks in our neighborhood from breeds with this genetic history. The result - one 90 year old woman received a broken hip, one 70 year old woman received a lacerated arm, one 8 year old girl received a disfiguring face wound, and what I mentioned in my first paragraph. The dog that bit the little girl surprised everyone in the neighborhood because it was thought to be friendly and affectionate, and it was except for one intolerable moment.

"In a world devoid of semiautomatics, a properly set-up Webley is the ultimate full-size self-defense handgun."
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Old June 7, 2005, 02:34 PM   #22
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Anytime that a fellow human being is being attacked with such force that it becomes a life and death situation, any actions on your part to either disengage the violence or to stop the violence, is warrented.

If a fellow human being is being mauled then getting the attention of the attacker, and then following up with ensuring that the threat is removed, is warrented.

I would have put myself into gaining the attention of the attacker, allow it to come after me, and then dealt with the situation as best I could.

Wayne
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Old June 7, 2005, 02:36 PM   #23
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Trip20,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen426
My point is that too many people out there don't invest a sufficient amount of time training and socializing these powerful breeds to make them "safe" around people. I feel owners of these powerful and traditionally agressive breeds should have special licensing for their dogs which can only be attained through special training and socializing classes. A specialist should then evaluate whether the dog should ever be allowed off leash or contained in an inspected and safe cage. This may seem draconian and like those anti-gun people but dogs can bite on their own while guns cannot shoot on their own. At the same time, guns cannot escape on their own and wander freely.
Okay... I we agree that some dogs are more agressive but my point is that MANY OWNERS DO NOT SPEND THE TIME TO PROPERLY TRAIN THEIR DOGS. That is not the same as some guns being more deadly than others. I just think it is sad that so many children get mauled because people don't properly restrain their dogs. Many of these victims are scarred for life (physically and sometimes psychologically). The dog bite law website stated that most bites occur to the face when children are attacked.

People who own dangerous dogs should have to demonstrate that they are competent to control and train the dog.
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Old June 7, 2005, 02:54 PM   #24
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German Shepherds, by the way, were developed in Germany as sheep dogs, just as the name implies. They would manage and guard the flock.
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Old June 7, 2005, 03:16 PM   #25
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Quote:
German Shepherds, by the way, were developed in Germany as sheep dogs, just as the name implies. They would manage and guard the flock.
But for years and years German Shepards been used as evil "assault dogs" and must be banned. I've just coined a new term: "assault dog". Maybe we can join forces with the anti-gun crowd and have an "assault weapons/dog ban" on the same piece of legislation. I mean people cannot be trusted with such dangerous things you know.

stephen, I think it's disgusting, you feel the government (whether state/federal) should regulate what kind of dog I can or cannot own.

It goes against the same principals you fight for, against your adversary, the anti-gun crowd.

I see, only when it's convenient for you, should the government step out of your way.

EDIT: I suggest you check this thread to learn how the government is in no way responsible for your safety. To suggest they protect you, by limiting what I can/cannot do with firearms, or dogs, is plain wrong IMO.
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