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Old June 5, 2005, 02:45 PM   #1
butch50
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Basic equipment question

Just bought a 1911 and will probably be shooting it quite a bit. Looking at the price of tailor made ammo I am thinking I will reload. I have reloaded pistol and rifle shells with a lee hand-loader in the past. The hand loader though is slower than I want to go now. I have never used a press type setup.

What is the least expensive (without getting poor quality crap) but best bang for the buck start up equipment for 45 acp? I might even reload some 9mm while I am at it. Simple straight forward platform that I can build onto if I get real serious about loading type of equipment.
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Old June 5, 2005, 04:28 PM   #2
Leftoverdj
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Butch, hard to go wrong. Best is probably to watch your local shopper and yard sales for someone getting out of reloading. There are some real deals out there if you run across one.

Anything will do what you want. Bottom buck would be the little Lee Reloader press that runs about $20 with a loading manual thrown in, the Lee Pro AutoDisk measure, about $30, the Lee AutoPrime II, about $15, and a couple of sets of dies. You will add stuff as you go, especially a scale, but that little bit will get you started. If you can spare a few bucks more, consider the Lee Classic all steel press for about $65 or a used RCBS Rockchucker if you can find one for the same money.
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Old June 5, 2005, 04:32 PM   #3
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There are a variety of manufacturers on the market, as with anything, the more you spend, the better stuff you get.

Here's a few suggestions:


Lee Anniversary Kits

RCBS Partner Press Kit

RCBS Rock Chucker Supreme Master Kit

These are just some ideas for a starting setup, I would suggest you shop around for prices, Midway is just an easy "One stop shop" for me.
Of course, you'll need dies, as to what brand would be up to you, they all work, just some seem to be better than others.

Others will weigh in, but I suggest any of the 3 above.
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Old June 5, 2005, 06:05 PM   #4
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The Captain has a good point. Kits can be exceptional values and I would certainly add the Lyman Orange Crusher kit to the list as well as the T-Mag Turret press kit and the Hornady Lock-N-Load Single Stage or Progressive. One option that the Rockchucker provides is the ability to convert to semi-progressive, since you can remove the die bushing. But, Results vary!

It is hard to know what your reloading philosophy will be in 10 years. If I thought I wanted a progressive, I would get a true progressive like the Hornady Lock-N-Load in kit form, or a Dillon which is not packaged in a cost saving kit. There are not a lot of Lee products I would be willing to recommend, but I do have a very well used RCBS Partner that provided very good service (still would) and if cost becomes the issue, I would look at the partner kit vs Lee Kits unless you will reload rifle calibers. Full size cast iron Presses will serve you better, regardless of brand. Lyman Kits are the least expensive for quality tools, but nothing compares in price to Lee and after a few years of handloading, the reasons will be obvious if you switch to a better brand. Nothing wrong with saving money. I consider purchasing equipment that doesn't have to be replaced, a better value and more cost effective.

I use a REDDING Boss Single Stage (less than $100). It is a dedicated Single Stage (my third) that is not convertible and has no die bushing for adaptation. What it has that no other brand of SS has is the Top-Dead-Center feature and why I selected it in the first place. It will allow you to keep the overall length of your loaded ammunition more consistent than any other press. I have two balance beam scales and the one that I use most is an RCBS 135 (triple poise) that is very accurate with agate bearings and designed specifically for weighing powder charges to a maximium of 135 grs. Cost me about $30, 8 years ago. Digitals are more convenient, but if you want precision, the price will go up accordingly. REDDINGS (RS-2?) most affordable balance beam scale (was under $40 from NatchezSS) will measure to 1/20th grain accuracy instead of the common 1/10th, but it will take a little more time to balance than most.

There are good powder measures out there but few better than the RCBS Uniflow. It ain't cheap, but the only common one that could be considered better that I know of is the REDDING Benchrest/Competition model. The Lyman 55 is good and the new Hornady with the adjustable powder setting will allow you to set it up for multiple calibers.

I have a very narrow focus when it comes to dies and the only brand I'll buy in the future will be from REDDING. Handgun dies in particular, after having used all of the common brands. Titanium Carbide sets from REDDING are the best money will buy. They are more expensive and will cost you twice as much as LEE. They are also machined from the hardest steel to closer tolerances than any brand on the market and the Titanium Carbide sizer is stronger than the Tungsten carbide used in other brands. They will last you a lifetime and the warranty states such. Not just an oppinion! ...Most diemakers will tell you to leave a very small gap between the Shellholder and the bottom of the resizing die. I violate that rule with the REDDINGS and make full contact with the shellholder, knowing that Titanium carbide is not as brittle as everyone one elses Tungsten Carbide.

A dial caliper is a must regardless of brand so long as it is accurate. Most of them came from Japan when I started and now, most of them under $50 come from China. I have used Starrett and I have used Chinese and a 1" precision gauge block couldn't tell the difference to .001", but I wouldn't have felt comfortable until I tested them in a machine shop. The Chinese are the Midway variety at around $20 and the Starretts will cost you much more. As far as priming tools, I do use a LEE Autoprime, actually 3. One for small pistol, one for large pistol and one for Rifle. I lube them with Hornady One-Shot case lube. Over 20 years I have been through about 10 of them and the next one I buy will be the Hornady that is steel and I will buy Hornady shellholders for each caliber because that is what works best. I have tried the RCBS Shellholders in the Hornady Priming tool and the results were not nearly as good as the Hornady shellholders were. Big Surprise! And, Leverage is made for Human hands instead of being backwards!

Just an oppinion from a guy that has stuck with Single Stages for over 20 years, and not planning to change anytime soon!
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Old June 5, 2005, 07:13 PM   #5
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Very good advice Sturm!
You touched on everything I left out, thank you. We (Sturm and myself) are in a minority on this forum I believe, I too, am still running single stage presses, I thought about progressives, but then decided it wasn't for me.
I doubt that I will ever go with a progressive loader, unless I find a great deal on one.
To each his own, if someone wants to buy Dillon, Hornady, Lyman, etc. Hey, it's your money, buy what you want, IMHO, they are all good, some just better than others!
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Old June 5, 2005, 08:14 PM   #6
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I assume that the benefit of progressive press over the single stage press is time savings, if that assumption is correct, and lets say that I load an average of 200 rounds of .45acp and 200 of 9mm per month, how big a deal is the time savings?

My sole experience is with the hand loader and 200 rounds would probably take me 4 hours.
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‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’ ~ Patrick Henry
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Old June 5, 2005, 10:31 PM   #7
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If you are loading 400 rds or so a month, don't bother with a progressive. A single stage or turret press will serve you well. I got a Dillon 550 when my ammo appetite got to 1000+ rds a month. Unless I'm going to load 3-400 rds or more of a particular caliber, it's not worth the hassle of using the 550. For smaller batches, I fall back to my trusty Rock Chucker. That being said, it's handy to be able to crank out several hundred rounds of a lesser used caliber and not have to bother loading it again for a while.

As the others said, buying a press in kit form can be a good deal. It depends on what equipment you already have such as scale, calipers, powder measure, etc. Shop around for kit contents and prices and decide what is best for you.
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Old June 6, 2005, 12:04 AM   #8
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If you go RCBS, go with the rockchucker over the partner press. It's only a little more and ten times the press. You're almost guarenteed to be bitten by the reloading bug more as time goes on and the RC will do almost everything. I started on a RC and could load 400 rnds in about 3 hrs. 20ish yrs later, I still have it and use it more than the 550B. My friend opted for the cheaper partner press and regrets it now. It just isnt the press that the RC is.
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Old June 6, 2005, 12:19 AM   #9
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Thanks Cap. It was easy enough since you started the idea off correctly by mentioning complete kits. I don't think the day will come that I reload rifle rounds on a progressive. I loaded 40 last night, along with 200 rounds of 9mm. 200 Rounds of handgun ammo at a time is usually what I do. Maybe we're just not as smart as everyone else and do all those things considered unnecessary by others. Last night, I was cleaning primer pockets and thinking how quick and easy it has become. But, if I were using a progressive, it would significantly slow that process down. I would like to mention the technique I use. About two years ago I was putting up a privacy fence for my brother in Ft. Worth and decided to get a power driver/drill. The old Black and Decker had fizzled out and it was a 1/2" drill not well suited to all those square drive screws you can get at Home Depot, so I looked and found a Ryobi Driver/drill and I knew I could use it in reloading as well, to clean primer pockets and to attach to my Lyman case trimmer. The neat part is that the Ryobi has spirit levels on the side for horizontal and one on the back for vertical and allows me to keep the primer pockets square as I breeze through 'em only allowing the time to let the weight of the driver stand on the case with it's on weight and I pick it up and go on to the next case. I can do 100 pockets in less than 5 minutes and to me, it's worth the time. Then I throw the brass into the tumbler with a previously cleaned primer pocket.

I really enjoy reloading and I like to experiment with different load combiantions. Last night I was constructing match type loads in 9mm and took some additional time that really is not necessary. When I finished, I opened the ice chest and started working on Warsteiner Dunkel and fiddling around in my reloading room while listening to good music. Not that exciting, but not a bad way to spend part of a Saturday evening either. I like to reload almost as much as I like to shoot, so I consider either a worthwile way to spend leisure time. If you have Warsteiner Dunkel (Dark) waiting in the ice chest until you finish it will be even colder, seemingly, than if you had spent much less time on a progressive just to get to the beer!
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Old June 6, 2005, 01:05 AM   #10
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Warsteiner Dunkel. Now there's some good beer!

I had a customer give me a 12 pack as a tip a while back. I've been hooked ever since. A fine way to finish off a reloading session.
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Old June 6, 2005, 08:14 PM   #11
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Scottys1, You now know where my signature line comes from! Right off a Warsteiner label!

Last edited by Sturm; June 6, 2005 at 11:44 PM.
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Old June 6, 2005, 08:24 PM   #12
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Gentlemen: We have now progressed from reloading to fine beers! Hooray for us! Where do I get this beer at and what makes it so good? Lately I have been drinking guiness as cold as I can get it without it freezing.... Want to talk about tequila and cigars too? I could go on for days and days ........ Ahhh the finer things of life! Guns, girls, golf, cigars and booze - not necessarily in that order though.

I can pick up a progressive reloader kit off of ebay for between $150 and $250 or I can pick up a single stage for between $75 and $150. What I am trying to work out in my feeble mind is why not a progressive or why not a single stage?

From sitting down and starting to getting up and going to the fridge - how long to run 200 rounds of pistol ammo in single stage and how long for progressive? That beer just might be signing to me you know....
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‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’ ~ Patrick Henry
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Old June 6, 2005, 10:48 PM   #13
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single stage vs progressive

This is goin gto be a bit vague but, A progressive press can load 2-5 times faster that a single stage depending I which press your talking about. EG I can load a great deal faster with a Lee loadmaster than I vcan with a Lee turret. Only because I got all the bells and whistles on the loadmaster. I can load a 100 rounds of .45 acp in about the same time as it takes to load a hundred rounds of components into the press. Load the primer feeder, Load the powder Load the hopper and tubes for the brass. load the bullet feeder tubes. Loading the bullet feeder is the longest part of the load the press up sequence. then it just pull the handle keeping an eye on things until supplies get low then load up more components. With the Turret press i would deprime, the use a hand primer to prime the cases. Then back to the press for the final run to drop powder seat the bullet and crimp. I use a separate turret to deprime. then load the other turret with the powder drop that also bells the mouth. then seat the bullet. then crimp. as my old turret press was a three hole turret. I found that was the easy way to do it. I prefer to seat and crimp with separate steps and dies. I use a single stage press for loading my rifle rounds because I trickle charge each load and I'm very precise at each step. When i buy rifle brass I buy like 200 and weigh each piece after sizing and trimming. then I keep the 50% that is closest in weight. with my pistol ammo I don't expect sub MOA accuracy. Mainly because I'm not that good of a pistol shot. I have found I don't save money reloading. I do shoot a lot more
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Old June 6, 2005, 11:15 PM   #14
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Progressives are great machines, however as hard as it might seem, I believe a guy just starting out is better served with a single stage press. The reason is this, you have to learn each and every step and know why what is being done.

I still use a RCBS single stage I bought many years ago. If I was shooting Competive pistol like I shoot competive rifle then a blue 550, or 650 would be the choice. I have used a 650 and a 1050 and know they are great machines.

But for the new guy, the progresives make too many mistakes too quickly. I remember a a poor fellow who on a nother forum reported loading a 1000 223's that wouldn't chamber in his rifle. So much for speed for him.
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Old June 6, 2005, 11:55 PM   #15
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Butch, I haven't attempted any speed records and there are probably guys that can do it faster, but if I have a good game plan and focus on productivity, I can do about 100 rounds an hour on the SS Boss. The low number is usually 50 RPH on a SS and it doesn't take long to exceed that once you have developed a system where you maximize your layout and dexterity.

Now, do you really want an answer to the beer question? How about an analogy? American beers are loaded on progressives and good German bier is loaded on a single stage!
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Old June 7, 2005, 05:10 PM   #16
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Quote:
Now, do you really want an answer to the beer question? How about an analogy? American beers are loaded on progressives and good German bier is loaded on a single stage!
Well said Sturm!

Actually, on a single stage, with the cases prepared (sized, deprimed) the average is about 100 rounds an hour for me.
I recently started using a Lee Autodisk for charging, so I can probably go a little faster now.
Yeah, I charged buy hand with a Lyman No.55 for years, it was a slow process, and I'm really starting to like this AutoDisk!
I haven't loaded any rifle ammo in years, so all of my ammo is cast bullet pistol ammo.
I also think that everyone should start out on a single stager, to me, it kind of puts more of the "hand" into "handloading". But that's just me.
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Old June 7, 2005, 05:23 PM   #17
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I started out with Lee Hand Loaders, I have loaded rifle and pistol with them -thats as basic as it gets, but it is sooo slow - although if I shot competition it is the way I would continue to go, using my balance beam powder scale of course....for me even a single stage press is a giant leap forward technologically. I also have and use a Lee Load All for shotgun shells.
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‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’ ~ Patrick Henry
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Old June 7, 2005, 09:07 PM   #18
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So did I. So when you move up to a Single Stage it will be almost progressive. I bought the Boss for precision and if you decide to go that route, you will not have to worry about any accuracy drop off. In fact, I would expect you to see some improvement. Not sure what they cost today, but I paid around $85 in 1998 and cost was not the issue at all. I decided I wanted to stick with a SS for precision and felt the Boss was the one for me. I mention this way too much, but don't think I did in this thread. The Cartridge Overall Lengths on my loaded ammunition vary only by +/- .001" and I don't use a micrometer seating die, but I do use REDDING die sets! The Top-Dead-Center feature is everything I hoped it would be
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Old June 7, 2005, 11:15 PM   #19
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You can't beat the utility of having a single stage press on the bench. It's very handy for loading small batches, working up loads, prepping cases, or whatever other small jobs you can think of.

A progressive is great for loading large batches in a short time but is more like having a thoroughbred horse or a race car. Great when you need speed but not necessarily the best tool when you don't have the pedal to the metal. I don't know that I would want a progressive without also having a single stage available.

As an aside: I am trying out some Fuller's London Pride pale ale. I'm working on my second pint as we speak. While not as good as Warsteiner, it's quite drinkable and beats our American progressively loaded beers handily.
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Old June 8, 2005, 07:29 PM   #20
butch50
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Thanks for all the information. I have decided that I will move up to a single stage, and see how that works out for me. I can always move on up from there to a turret or progressive later if I need the speed, and have the flexibility of using the single stage when I don't need the speed.

Primarily I will be loading 45acp and 9mm with the very occasional 357 mag and the once in a great while rifle cartridge.

I am looking at RCBS and Dillon and Redding and Lee presses for the most part. Sounds like Redding dies are the best. I will need a tumbler for cleaning the brass. I alrelady have a powder scale, what else are must haves that I will need for basic operations?
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‘‘The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.’’ ~ Patrick Henry
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Old June 8, 2005, 11:26 PM   #21
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Butch, tumblers are for pretty. Unless you are a world class pistol shot, the difference between the cheapest carbide and the most expensive dies made will never show. (Rifle is different.)

You will need a good priming system and a powder measure. The Lee Auto Prime is the standard, although I prefer the Auto Prime II which mounts on your press and uses the same shell holders as you load with. Powder measures are a different problem, and I don't claim to have the answer.

Most powder measures are made to throw rifle charges and are less than optimal for small charges of pistol powder. I use the Lee Autodisk Pro mostly with the adjustable charge bar. I ain't altogether happy with it, but I am less unhappy than I was with an RCBS Uni-flow (great for rifle), an RCBS Lil' Dandy (great, except that it uses fixed and expensive bushings), a Quinetics, and a Lyman.

I am a man of staunch convictions, but I am ready to listen to any suggestions for pistol powder measures.
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Old June 8, 2005, 11:35 PM   #22
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Quote:
As an aside: I am trying out some Fuller's London Pride pale ale. I'm working on my second pint as we speak. While not as good as Warsteiner, it's quite drinkable and beats our American progressively loaded beers handily.
Now, now. I am fortunate enough to live within the Yuengling's distribution area. While rare, there are good American beers.
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Old June 9, 2005, 12:41 AM   #23
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Carbide sizing dies are worth the extra cost as they eliminate the need for lubing cases. They are generally only available for straight wall cases.

Dial (or digital) calipers.

I have an RCBS Uni-flow powder measure. Great for rifle or pistol cartridges that take relatively large powder charges. I agree that it becomes problematic with small charges. I added a micrometer adjuster which I like. Also available is a small micrometer adjuster for smaller charges but I haven't tried it. Most (almost all) of my pistol ammo is loaded on my Dillon which works fine for throwing small charges with most powders. Flake powder can be inconsistent when the charges are small.

No offense intended. Good American beers are anything but rare. You just have to look for them. Each year, there is an Oktoberfest in my town where microbreweries (and some not so micro) breweries bring out their wares. Pay your admission, pick up your mug, and sample to your hearts content. Includes grub, usually bratwurst, and a concert. It got easier when the kids got old enough to drive. No parking worries and a call on the cell brings a ride home in a jiffy when the blood alcohol content gets too high.
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Old June 9, 2005, 01:27 AM   #24
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This is Texas and we don't get Yuenglings. If we did, and since I know the national origin of the the original brewing family. I'd love to try it. They do, I'm sure, understand the philosophy of the German Brewing purity law, dating back to the mid 1500s! The purity law has nothing to do with $ spent on advertising instead of giving the customer a quality beer!

We do have a little Czech brewery down in Shiner though!

Powder Measure: RCBS Uniflow!

Carbide dies? well, there's Tungsten carbide from everyone including LEE :barf: Titanium Nitride from Hornady, which is as much marketing as a COORs Light commercial, or Miller Lite's: "Taste Great/Less Filling" but I don't do Light beer. Kinda defeats the purpose!

Then there is REDDING Titanium Carbide, and while it may cost twice as much as LEE, it is easily worth three or four times the price! The difference between the cheapest and the best carbide dies is in which one will crack or break, or is the wrong dimension to start with vs. REDDINGs, you will buy once and never look back! FOR LIFE!

Who doesn't want to be a world class shooter, or make world class ammo?

Scotty, if I run across Fuller's, I'll give it a try since we already agree on Dunkel!
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Old June 9, 2005, 03:37 AM   #25
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This is Texas and we don't get Yuenglings. If we did, and since I know the national origin of the the original brewing family. I'd love to try it. They do, I'm sure, understand the philosophy of the German Brewing purity law, dating back to the mid 1500s! The purity law has nothing to do with $ spent on advertising instead of giving the customer a quality beer!
They do, Sturm, and that may be the only thing we will ever agree on. A German family settled in Pottsville, PA in 1829, and backed their brewery up against a cave. They've dug the cave deeper and put in rails, and that is about all that has changed. You could live off their porter if that's what you had. I mostly drink the lager, and it compares favorably with draught San Miguel. There may be better German beers in Germany, but they ain't better by the time they get here.
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