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Old May 28, 2005, 01:13 AM   #1
chris in va
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Here we go again...

God I'm getting sick of this. Didn't used to be this way around here. Shootouts are happening a lot lately. Good thing I'm moving out the 10th.

http://www.manassasjm.com/servlet/Sa...82979513&path=

EDIT: Shootout/shooting...you know what I mean. Guns get fired a lot around here lately.

Last edited by chris in va; May 28, 2005 at 11:10 PM.
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Old May 28, 2005, 02:28 AM   #2
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This incident was a shooting, not a shootout. As only one side firing at the other, it was a shooting. When both sides fire at each other, it is a shootout.
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Old May 28, 2005, 07:21 AM   #3
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First, I agree it was a shooting, and not a shootout.

The thing I'm more concerned about is this quote:
She said she would expect something like the shooting if she had been in New York City, but never expected anything like Friday's action in a parking lot in Prince William County.

"It just came on a normal day,"she said.


It really places me in a state of awe that people just think they're completely excluded from violent crimes in their life based solely on their locale, or even the time of day in some cases. Also, they apparently expect some kind of warning?
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Old May 28, 2005, 11:51 AM   #4
BillCA
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Agreed - shooting not a shootout.

Other notable things in this story that make me wonder...

Undercover police SUV's. (i.e. unmarked vehicles)
Delaney said the men were wearing masks.
"It just looked like people after somebody in a car."
"...saw a police badge swinging from one of people and we're like, 'Oh they're police,' "

So what I surmise from all of this is that the suspect enters the parking lot and is either suddenly boxed in by two or more unmarked SUVs and men start appearing who are wearing masks. Whether you're a drug dealer or not your first reaction is to go immediately to condition red and try to get out of there.

Note what witnesses said in the quotes above. They didn't see police after someone in a car... and only after someone saw a "swinging badge" did they think of the police.


Let's complicate this a little. You're just about to back out of a parking slot at the mall and in the next aisle a Chevy Tahoe is just pulling in. Suddenly it's blocked by another SUV and masked men with guns jump out and run towards the Tahoe. You are legally armed with your CCW gun and decide to leave since you are outnumbered. You reverse your car and back out of the slot and WHAM you collide with another SUV and see masked men jumping out of that SUV too. What do you do? Me--I drop it into gear and floor it to get out of the area. If some masked guy gets in my way, tough. And what was that jewelry he had around his neck anyhow? Didn't I hear shouts of "Police"? No, I had the A/C running and the radio was telling me about Macy's White Sale "On Now".

This is precisely why I dislike so-called "undercover" busts. Citizens who can get caught up in the action can't tell good guys from bad guys. If you ask any average citizen their opinion of the identity of four masked men with guns running through a mall parking lot, way down on their list of possibilities will be "police".

And I've seen a number of gang members around this part of CA wearing a piece of large jewelry around their necks on chains -- something that could be mistaken for a badge at a distance... or first glance.
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Old May 30, 2005, 07:38 AM   #5
BatmanX
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Wow. After reading the article, it looks like a horrid judgement call by those involved in the bust.

Why in the hell would you take them down guns a blazin in a crowded mall parking lot? Why not let them pull out of the lot and then take them down. That is just stupid.

Depending on how the "police identified themselves" this could have been a bad situation. Apparently the witnesses weren't very famaliar with the police jargon:

Quote:
Rebekah Lash was in the store working when Delaney came in.

"This woman came in yelling, 'Everybody get down,' " the 20-year-old Bull Run-area woman said.

Lash said she didn't know whether or not to believe what she was hearing.

"It was really surreal," Lash said. "People were screaming."
Sounds like it could have been interpreted as a hold up!

Anyway. It is Monday, and I am all Brett Favre up in here, not my intention, so I am out. (Heading to the 'other' type range to shoot some clay birds)
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Old May 30, 2005, 08:14 AM   #6
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Agreeing with BillCA.
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Old May 30, 2005, 09:19 AM   #7
eka
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"The undercover detectives, who had identified themselves as police officers, felt they were in danger and opened fire, and hit Jenkins, Mangan said."

It sounds to me like the police had made it clear to Mr. Jenkins who they were and what their intentions were. And Mr. Jenkins was not at the mall to shop, he was there to deliver drugs as verified through an investigation prior to this encounter. That's way different than if you were there minding your own business and a group of people came running at you. He was in the process of committing a felony and had most likely recieved verbal commands as to what they wanted him to do.

"Wow. After reading the article, it looks like a horrid judgement call by those involved in the bust."

"Why in the hell would you take them down guns a blazin in a crowded mall parking lot? Why not let them pull out of the lot and then take them down. That is just stupid."

Well that is explained by the quotes below. The police were not the ones who picked the location as is the norm for intercepting drug deliveries. And I know you are probably not familiar with the Manasas / Prince William County area, but it is extremely populated and uban. So, basically there is no great place to take down a felon. And if he had been allowed to drive away and then they had attempted to pull him over, a vehicle pursuit would have likely resulted. Had a pursuit resulted in a injury crash, people would have been saying they should have never let him leave the parking lot. And police take guys like this down all the time without incident and they had no way of knowing this guy was going to escalate the situation like this. Not to say they didn't know it could happen and weren't prepared for it.

" 'Undercover agents were in touch with someone who was in touch with Jenkins."

"The under cover guys were getting information about where he was going to be," Mangan said.

Jenkins kept changing the location of the drop, Mangan said.

"He decided on this location," Mangan said. "The task force came out here to make the arrest.' "

And lastly, the police didn't have to identify themselves to the ladies looking out the store windows, they only had to make their identity and intentions known to Jenkins. Which it sounds like they did.
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Old May 30, 2005, 11:31 AM   #8
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eka, police DO need to identify themselves to bystanders, or they risk getting shot. In Dallas, I think it was in January 2003, some masked undercover cop entered a convenience store with gun drawn to apprehend a drug dealer who had just entered the store. She was promptly shot by the clerk. No charges were filed as I recall. I think she died.

It's really up to the police, but I question the judgement of any LEO who would put his or her life at risk, and the lives of bystanders at risk, in order to aprehend a non-violent criminal in a substantially uncontrollable environment.
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Old May 30, 2005, 12:37 PM   #9
3 weelin geezer
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shoulda thrown spike strips at him instead and used a lawyer to confront him and tell him all about the laws he was breaking and to just give up before making any worse on himself. I don't think he was in any mood to listen.
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Old May 30, 2005, 01:57 PM   #10
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How about following him around till he goes home and bust in after momma tucks him in. Too much desire for drama.

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Old May 30, 2005, 09:25 PM   #11
Dwight55
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The sad part about it all is that it is totally legal and will be upheld by the present court system.

It will take several innocent non-combatants to be killed by these jack booted, nazi wannabe's, before some litigation minded lawyers finally convince the legal establishment that this is not the way to do business. A couple of multi million dollar settlements should change some ways, . . . but again sadly there will be a lot of pain and suffering before that occurs.

Or, . . . some innocent CCW person is going to drop a couple of these masked knotheads and wind up losing everything he has proving his innocense.

I really did believe after Ruby Ridge and Waco that there was some hope for our legal system getting back on track, . . . but when you watch some of these shows like "Cops" on Fox, . . . the only difference I see in some of the tactics they use and what I read in the history books, . . . there used to be a guy named Adolph that was the head guy.

I just hope they wake up before it is too late.

May God bless,
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Old May 30, 2005, 10:00 PM   #12
eka
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"It's really up to the police, but I question the judgement of any LEO who would put his or her life at risk, and the lives of bystanders at risk, in order to aprehend a non-violent criminal in a substantially uncontrollable environment."

Yeah, this guy was really non-violent. He rammed three police vehicles and tried to run over an officer on foot. And drug dealers have never been known to carry guns or shoot anybody.

"In Dallas, I think it was in January 2003, some masked undercover cop entered a convenience store with gun drawn to apprehend a drug dealer who had just entered the store. She was promptly shot by the clerk."

I might agree with you if any of these officers had entered one of the stores in this incident. However, they were attempting to apprehend a felon who was violently attempting to flee in a parking lot. Sorry these guys didn't call a timeout and go over to the nice ladies and show them a badge and ID.


"The sad part about it all is that it is totally legal and will be upheld by the present court system."

Yes Dwight, it was legal and our legal system works just fine. Which country do you think has a better one? And just what do you think these "Jackbooted Nazi Wannabe's" should have been doing? Whatever they would have done, I have the feeling you would not have been happy with it. If they write a guy a speeding ticket, they should have been out arresting drug dealers and if they are out arresting drug dealers they should be doing something else. Just don't forget it was the suspect that turned this arrest into a violent use of force issue, not the police.
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Old May 30, 2005, 10:23 PM   #13
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I'm sorry eka that you don't comprehend the seriousness we as honest, law abiding, civilians face today with the powers that are presently being abused by the courts, judges, LEO's, . . . but we are quickly going to come to fork in the road that when taken, . . . will provide a no-win and non-returnable choice for freedom.

You are 100% correct when you asked if there was another country which has a better law system, . . . no, . . . none other is even as good IMHO.

But that does not mean we have to allow government snipers to recklessly and with abandon shoot innocent women and children, . . . it does not mean that we have to sit by and honor a government that takes tanks against women and children in a church with absolutely no accoutability on anyone's part for either incident, . . . it does not mean that we have to allow our coutry to degenerate to a level where "NO KNOCK" warrants are SOP, where the police are the ones in the ski masks, where one can be held under the label of "terrorist suspect" without any of the bill of rights being applicable to his/her situation.

No, . . . thank God, . . . it is not yet a majority of the judges, of the LEO's, of the courts that are upholding and doing these kinds of things, . . . but if there is one doing it, . . . it is two too many, . . . and unless we band together and see this country put back on some level footing, . . . it is only going to get worse: to the point that the SS just might make a permanent comeback.

Many people reading this will dismiss it as the musings of an old man who has read too much conservative propaganda, . . . the same was said in Germany about 70 years, 6 million Jews, and only God knows how many allied troops ago. Think about where we are going, . . . where we came from, . . . and ask yourself if you really do want to go that direction.

May God bless,
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Old May 30, 2005, 10:59 PM   #14
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Quote:
It's really up to the police, but I question the judgement of any LEO who would put his or her life at risk, and the lives of bystanders at risk, in order to aprehend a non-violent criminal in a substantially uncontrollable environment.
There is nothing wrong with busting criminals as close as possible to where a crime is thought to be taking place. Given that criminals rarely voluntarily walk into police stations for a controlled arrest unless via prompting by a lawyer, in just what circumstance do you perceive cops being able to arrest criminals in a controlled environment?

I like the fact that you called the guy non-violent. That was completely wrong. While the guy might not have been known to be violent before police moved in (as they probably didn't actually know who he was and compare his name to a rap sheet, if one existed), no doubt that they could have assumed he was non-violent or likely not to act out and hence the situation was not perceived as a big risk to the police or bystanders. Obviously, however, he was a violent criminal and he responded with lethal force by intentionally crashed his car into a police vehicle. From the article, "When they went to make the arrest he put the vehicle in reverse and rammed one of the police undercover vehicles," Mangan said.
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Old May 30, 2005, 11:17 PM   #15
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Dwight,

I do understand a little about what you are saying. America is supposed to be the land of the free, but it doesn't seem all that free anymore. You know I don't relish the fact that law enforcement has to go to the extent they have to sometimes. But, you know this country does have a tremendous drug and violent crime problem. As the population continues to grow and people get more and more crowded together in some places, crime is a huge problem. Balancing the need for public safety and personal freedoms is not an easy task. But, you know at the end of the day, you can thank the criminals and sometimes the lawyers for the eroding personal freedoms. Law enforcement is out there trying to maintain order and arrest criminals that prey on innocent and sometimes defenseless citizens. And on some fronts they are losing. If there were no such thing as drugs, criminals, and terrorists, we could enjoy enormous personal freedoms. So, lets not lose sight of who is causing these problems in the first place.
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Old May 31, 2005, 12:22 AM   #16
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Couple of thoughts.

First, my sympathies are all with the law and the officers that enforce them. And you will never meet anyone more against illegal drugs and those that uise or sell them. My question, and one expressed by others and unanswered so far, is WHATS WITH THE MASKS? Cooper expressed the sentiment that ANYONE carrying a gun and wearing a mask is a legitimate target. I would have to agree. The only one I would trust and believe is truly a LEO is one wearing a uniform, or a dedicated vest with POLICE prominently marked on it, with marked cars in support. The ninja-like mask thing and non-uniform black outfits are utterly ridiculess and very unprofessional. Sad to say, I would not be surprised if more officers are shot wearing outfits like this, and wearing masks. I have never heard a rational explanation as to why a LEO would wear a mask. Seems calculated to elicite a violent response. There is no way for a good or bad guy to know if ANYONE that SAYS they are police and wearing a mask are for real. My first instict would be the opposite.

For the officers safety and well being, and for the general publics safety and well being, uniforms and marked cars, at least as second in, should be the rule for busts. Just my opinion.

Somebody educate me if I'm missing something here.
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Old May 31, 2005, 01:31 PM   #17
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M -

The masks are probably there to protect the identity of UNDERCOVER police officers. Aside from that, I cannot think of a legitimate reason why police would attempt a felony arrest in a crowded public location, while wearing them.

Since we do not have all the information the police had, I think its pretty tough to assume that there were no extenuating circumstances about the arrest. Perhaps he was going to flee the country after this exchange, perhaps the perp was going to use the money to buy explosives to do something nasty. Who knows.

Also we have to give the police credit - no innocent bystanders were hurt.

As to the scenario that was proposed here. If I am at all outnumbered and outgunned - whether it be by masked gun weilding folks or not, AND there is an avenue of escape - then I am outta there. (As long as my SO and friends or family who happen to be with me are in the same car of course) - If one or more of them is in the line of fire, I would have to attempt to save them.

If a stranger is getting arrested or jumped by a group of armed men, a single CC holder with a pistol and one extra mag - is probably not enough to deter a professional team. Unless you are the modern version of Wyatt E., legendary lawman, you are probably dead if you try.
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Old June 1, 2005, 10:30 PM   #18
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Thank you Malamute and Duxman for straying back to the purpose of this thread -- and discussing the relevant question - WHY THE MASKS.

Okay, I understand the need to protect the identity of undercover officers. If that's the case, then the PD needs to work on their team building - by getting the non-Undercover cops to make the initial contact and have the masked UC's providing back-up support, if anything.

I'm typically against LEOs wearing masks or concealing garments, except when they have POLICE on the clothing they're wearing. Even then, masking the officer's features makes it difficult to identify the SOB who punts your 15 year old cat into the next room. Or the one who punches your teen daughter in the stomach when she's suddenly surprised by a masked man in her room and tries to fight.

We've heard about cops getting to the wrong address or having the wrong address on the warrant due to a clerical error. So who's responsible for ensuring they get it right? Who's fault is it if a masked officer in a mask, holding a rifle, is killed when he appears at your bedroom window at 5AM? You can bet that the D.A. will say it's YOUR fault, not the raid team's leader.
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Old June 2, 2005, 07:16 AM   #19
tyme
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eka, it turned violent after the alleged criminal was confronted by masked, gun-wielding, alleged cops. For all he knew it could have been an attempted rip-off.
Quote:
"We kept watching and saw a police badge swinging from one of people and we're like, 'Oh they're police,' " Delaney said.
That kind of identification doesn't mean a thing. Anyone can make or acquire a badge that looks real from 20 feet away. If the masked "officers" had been thugs hired by a rival drug dealer, the good sheeple inside the store would have just allowed a black-on-black (nothing to do with skin color) murder/robbery. Maybe they should have anyway, since it was too dangerous to intervene, but in this case they hid in the store for the wrong reason.

That is why arrests for non-obvious crimes need to take place in controlled environments. The masks make it worse, but they're not the central problem.
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