The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 23, 2005, 10:58 PM   #1
payne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2005
Location: SE US
Posts: 519
Stupid bullets!!!

Well, stupid of the guy rigging them. I have a friend that is taking hollow point amo and dropping MERCURY into them and sealing it off with something. He believes this will definatly stop and intruder. If it worked I would most certainly agree, but that's besides the point. He's putting himself in some seriious danger messing around with Mercury isn't he? And if he stoped a guy with one of these bullets wouldn't it be extremely bad for you in a civil case? What do I say to this guy? I know he probably needs slapped on the back of the head but I would prefer to do it in a more reasonable manner so i don't have a Mercury bullet flying at me (that's a joke). Thanks for the replies
__________________
If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. - Sun Tzu
payne is offline  
Old May 23, 2005, 11:53 PM   #2
threefivesevenmag
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 8, 2005
Posts: 406
Okay.

Mercury? While dangerous in the long run, I don't think it will help anything terminal involving ballistics. And yes, it is dangerous to handle. Many people have died after prolonged exposure to it via their lungs. But, it won't help in a gunfight.

Altering bullets designed to do a job by a professional manufacturer that does not need any alteration whatsoever is not a good idea. Training, practice, and mind will help your friend much more in a fight (fist, knife, gun) than mercury. It will not give him an edge at all. Also, altering a bullet is probably dangerous and might make them less accurate and effect their functioning. I would also worry about the mercury messing up the gun's internals or finish.

As for being hurt in a civil case...if he ever had to use his gun and even if it was justified, I am sure he would face a lot of trouble in a court room. It's a no-brainer. I am sure the opposing lawyer would bring up the fact that he's gone "extreme" and over board. It would be hard to justify mercury, when a bullet is already designed to do a job.

Reason with him, but if it doesn't work...it's his own boat he'll float in.
threefivesevenmag is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 12:00 AM   #3
bclark1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,531
the quantity of mercury you could fit into a hollow point is not likely to be fatally toxic, and even the best poisons do not act quickly enough to save your rear end if you're in over your head in a gunfight. +1 on just learning to hit what you need to hit to end it fast regardless of ammunition choice.
bclark1 is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 12:44 AM   #4
3 weelin geezer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 25, 2004
Posts: 438
Just what is mercury supposed to accomplish? Poisoning or is it supposed to explode or something else?
3 weelin geezer is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 12:52 AM   #5
novus collectus
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 940
This was tried a hundred or so years ago. Apparently, mercury reacts with the lead and just makes a rreeeaaalllllyy soft point bullet because it makes the lead mushy when the mercury is absorbed. If it was possible to keep this from happening, then it may offer better performance. But since it is probably against the law to "poison someone in self defense", it would be a bad idea unless your friend was a hitman and didn't care about the law anyway.

Another serious problem is that if ther was a miss and a ricochet, he would now have a few grams of mercury getting into his lungs or eyes.

And finally, mercury is bad stuff to handle. The expression "Mad as a hatter" came from the fact that hat makers who used that stuff for stiffening the brims usually became mad from it at a very young age.
novus collectus is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 01:26 AM   #6
Wraith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2004
Location: The Free State
Posts: 498
It wouldn't poison the guy at all, as we all absorb mercury and such a small amount would not be signifigant. HOWEVER he will add some considerable mass to the bullet. But that's a moot point IMHO.
__________________
June 23, 2003
GRATZ et al. v. BOLLINGER et al.
The day America died.


Never Forget 9/11.

Cold dead hands...
Wraith is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 02:54 AM   #7
mete
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 5,352
Hollywood ! "The Day of the Jackal' the gunsmith made bullets filled with mercury. The audience was shocked when the bullets exploded a watermelon ! Big deal any 223 HP would do the same. Lead, Mercury, Cadmium, Bismuth are toxic ,the big ones. Other metals are toxic to lesser degrees.Messing with a properly designed bullet is a waste of time.
mete is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 03:33 AM   #8
LAK
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2002
Posts: 2,251
Quote:
Apparently, mercury reacts with the lead and just makes a rreeeaaalllllyy soft point bullet because it makes the lead mushy when the mercury is absorbed.
Perhaps that the added weight of the mercury, coupled with the potential deforming of the bullet in the barrel under acceleration, might cause over-pressure turning his pistol into a grenade - will persuade your friend to abandon this idea.
LAK is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 07:09 AM   #9
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,423
It would be a lot safer for the shooter and more effective to load the hollowpoint with something like fecal matter and seal it up. That way when the round enters the bad guy, the fecal matter will cause/promote infection and if not properly recognized, cause sepsis and eventual death.

Of course, that is a dumb idea as well.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 07:20 AM   #10
beenthere
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 16, 2004
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 460
Mercury loads

It also opens him up for prosecution by the EPA. Since he's not a large industrial polluter providing lots of jobs they would probably throw the book at him.
__________________
The weak, and those unwilling to make the struggle, soon resign their liberties for the protection of powerful men or paid armies; they begin by being protected, they end by being subjected. Louis L'Amour
beenthere is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 07:34 AM   #11
bclark1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 5, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,531
day of the jackal had mercury bullets, underworld had liquid-silver bullets for killing werewolves. it wouldn't be in a movie if it wasn't true!
bclark1 is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 07:55 AM   #12
PSE
Junior member
 
Join Date: July 23, 2004
Location: stupids womb, SC
Posts: 475
www.rbcd.net
psequip@bellsouth.net
to order...
agencysalesrbcd@psearms.net
PSE is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 05:18 PM   #13
Bullrock
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 25, 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,624
Mercury??? Nah!!! A drop of liquid nitro should do it!!!
Bullrock is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 05:44 PM   #14
jvlip3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2005
Location: Third Rock from the Sun
Posts: 312
The famous moron Ducan Long put the mercury tipped bullets in his Combat Ammunition Book along with other BS. From a legal stand point you are screwed! The prosecutor will build his case on the use of cruel and inhumane ammunition. If you have any doubts, remember we execute the slime of the world humanely. This is also the reason not to carry reloads for self defense. Ballistics and powder residue determine how far you are from the BG. But with reloads it is impossible to tell as there is no test standard to use. All they have is your reload data and who's to say that all your reloads are the same,there is no outside source to compare. Carry factory and save the reloads for the range.
jvlip3 is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 06:12 PM   #15
payne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2005
Location: SE US
Posts: 519
Well, main reason for bringing it up was him possiably being exposed to toxic levels and the legal part. I guess he got the idea from those movies ya'll are talkin bout. The bottle of the stuff wasnt that big but it weighed a lot! I tell him he needs to seriously reconsider the Mercury bullets.
__________________
If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. - Sun Tzu
payne is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 06:15 PM   #16
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,559
FWIW, . . . a chemical salesman I once knew from the Cleveland area, . . . was about 6'3" and a good 275 lbs.

Was looking over a cooling tower that had some kind of mercuric oxide (this was back in late 60's) to kill the microbial non paying tenants.

Long story short: he had a speck, . . . very small speck at that fly into his eye, and he went down. Then, there, on the spot, . . . the bldg super thought he had a heart attack. He was diagnosed with one ailment: mercury poisoning.

Squad took him to Cleveland Clinic where stayed for about a month. Also he lost over 150 lbs trying to get well, . . . and darn near did not make it.

He came in to see me right after he first went back to work, . . . and honest to pete, . . . I did not recognize him. His eyes were all sunk, face all saggy, looked like he had aged 15 years.

Moral: don't mess with mercury, . . . it can take you down, now, and keep you down for the long count.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 07:33 PM   #17
RWK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 20, 1999
Location: Occupied Virginia
Posts: 2,777
Mercury Fulminate

I suspect – pure speculation on my part – that the substance to be added to the hollow point’s cavity is FULMINATE OF MERCURY, not mercury. Mercury Fulminate was for many years the primary explosive in the fabrication of detonators. As such, it is very powerful and very volatile. It could cause a how point projectile to explode horrifically.
__________________
__________________
Μολών λαβέ!
RWK is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 07:44 PM   #18
novus collectus
Junior member
 
Join Date: March 15, 2005
Location: Maryland
Posts: 940
Fulminate of murcury would possibly explode in the barrel. But it has been done before (hundred or more years ago). They reported in their experiments that, when they shot it into a cows head, it totally destroyed all brain tissue in the skull.
I tried to experiment with this when I took some .17 caliber jacketed bullets and hollowed them out (and sanded them down to fit in the barrel), filled it with primer compound, superglued it to a pellet, then fired it into a phonebook with a 1000 ft/s pellet rifle. It was interesting, but only half of them exploded. RDX (or C2) would be a better explosive because it would be more stable and more powerful. It is a shame that I think it is illegal in my state to make them for firearms.

He wasn't talking about the fulminate. He said that his friend had a jar of it and it was real heavy. I have never held more than gram or so of fulminate, but I bet it is no where near as heavy as pure mercury.
novus collectus is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 08:20 PM   #19
jvlip3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 24, 2005
Location: Third Rock from the Sun
Posts: 312
The main reason for mercury is to make the bullet expand rapidly. The poison is a bonus. Bullets of these types are know as liquid filled bullets. These bullets are made for quick takedown with zero exit wounds. Picture a 308 round dumping all of it's energy without exiting and endangering bystanders/hostages while rapidly expanding to the size of a 50 cent piece. This is the ideal sniper round where a rifle is concerned. Unfortunately mercury is the best medium for this with heavy oil/grease coming up second. Leave these rounds to Hollywood and stick with normal loads.
jvlip3 is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 08:33 PM   #20
armedandsafe
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 9, 2005
Location: Moses Lake WA
Posts: 1,001
The mecury filled bullets I've read about were used in the 1800s and the mecury was put into the hollow BASE. On contact, momentum caused the mecury to expand the bullet in front of it dramatically.

Pops
__________________
Armed and Safe: Not just a theory

If it time to bury them, it is time to dig them up.
Remember, "Behind every blade of grass."
armedandsafe is offline  
Old May 24, 2005, 09:58 PM   #21
stevelyn
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 19, 2004
Location: Fairbanksan in exile to Aleutian Hell
Posts: 2,618
Modern hollow point bullets expand mostly due to hydraulic pressure exerted on the hollow cavity from the inside when striking living tissue or a medium that contains a large percentage of water. This can be demonstrated by firing a hollow point bullet into a deep pool of water. Thats one of the reasons why wet phone books, ballistic gelatin, and sealed bags of water are used for testing purposes. One of the reasons hollow points can fail is when the nose gets plugged on entry. The plug blocks out the body fluids that would cause a hollow point to expand.
The mercury is nothing more than a durable hydraulic medium sealed in the bullet cavity to initiate expansion milliseconds before it comes in contact with the liquid part of living tissue. The mercury's poisonous properties are a moot point.
Filling and sealing a bullet with mercury probably has more of a detrimental effect on terminal benefits than any perceived advantages, and is unnecessary with todays premium defensive bullets.
__________________
Herman Cain '12

Squished bugs on a windshield is proof the slow/heavy bullet theory works.
stevelyn is offline  
Old May 25, 2005, 12:27 AM   #22
payne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2005
Location: SE US
Posts: 519
I never knew all that about the mercury increasing the expansion when it struck it's target. I believe that he was planning on the mercury killing by it's poison effects. like a non lethal hit with some of the mercury getting into the blood stream. Of course this wouldn't take effect right away (i don't think). Well, with what Dwight said i might think it could. I know of a kid that swallowed a little drop while playing with it years ago, adn died within a few minutes. Kid was 8 I believe. Started this thread and learned a little something i wasnt expecting to. HA.
__________________
If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. - Sun Tzu
payne is offline  
Old May 25, 2005, 08:12 AM   #23
mfree
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2004
Posts: 506
"I know of a kid that swallowed a little drop while playing with it years ago, adn died within a few minutes."

How many times removed?

http://www.calpoison.org/public/mercury.html

Elemental liquid mercury isn't terribly poisonous by swallowing. The harm is in the vapors (like, the cloud that's be hanging around the shooter after firing a mercury-filled round).

NOW, that said, organic mercury or mercury salts are extremely nasty things. I have *no* reason to doubt the HgO story above.
mfree is offline  
Old May 26, 2005, 03:30 PM   #24
payne
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 26, 2005
Location: SE US
Posts: 519
The story was in our local paper. They climbed over the fence to a local power station. They found the mercury in the power station house. Also weht to school with him, but didn't know him personally. The power station was a Marshall-DeKalb Electric PS.
__________________
If you know the enemy and know yourself you need not fear the results of a hundred battles. - Sun Tzu
payne is offline  
Old May 26, 2005, 03:35 PM   #25
CarlosDJackal
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 25, 2004
Location: Central Virginia
Posts: 109
The other factor your friend did not consider is whether or not the mercury can cause the bullet to fly off target. When I was a Mortarman, we had to store the White Phosporous rounds vertically because if we let it lay on its side, the WP could cause a round to go off target if it settled to one side.

Oh well. Some people are gullible enough to buy off on hollyweird crap.
CarlosDJackal is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.12777 seconds with 7 queries