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Old May 23, 2005, 06:48 PM   #1
kgpcr
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Help with 9mm load

I am going to be loading Titegroup behind a 147grn hard cast bullets. anyone have any pet loads? if you could let me know the oal as well i would apreciate it.
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Old May 24, 2005, 07:39 AM   #2
Russ5924
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Hope you have better luck with the Titegroup with the 9MM than I did.The other day loaded 115g fmj 25 with 4g w231 and 25 with Titegroup 4g.The w231 were all on target all the Titegroup were to the left.But not done yet will keep messing with it till I get it right.
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Old May 25, 2005, 04:59 AM   #3
WESHOOT2
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Oh my!

IMNSLE powders for the 147g include: HS6, 3N37, AA5, WAP / Ramshot Silhoutte, and Power Pistol.

TG is for cowboy revolvers..........
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Old May 29, 2005, 05:54 PM   #4
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Not bad WES, except for the PP, which is a brilliant flasher. I would add Ramshot True Blue and AA#7. Don't know what kind of velocity you are after, but a good way to get there and stay under the SAAMI max of 35,000 PSI would be with the new VV 3N38. They have a load with the 147 gr. XTP rated at 1207 FPS and it is under 34,000 PSI. Your velocity will be slightly less. A heavier recoil spring would be wise if you pursue the super-sonic demon as Chuck Yeager calls it. AA#7 will do much the same, but will take you into +P pressure, but accuracy can be outstanding.

A good OAL for 124 and 147 gr. JHPs (except truncated cone shapes like the Sierras) is the European standard of 29mm, or 1.142". If your magazine and pistol chamber will allow, 1.161" can be used for the 147 gr. JHP or hard cast lead, like the Lasercast and add some combustion area to the cartridge. If your not sure about how to check the length of your chamber, shoot me a PM and I will explain it. CZs, and I love 'em, do have a slight handicap on chamber length. If your shooting a SIG, your fine. If you PM, be sure to mention the pistol these loads will be for. Remington Bulk JHPs or Golden Sabers have a rounded ogive, or nose profile and are an excellent value! VV likes Hornady XTP's and thats not a bad choice if you don't mind the additinal cost.

BTW, Ramshot True Blue is a very effective alternative to the excellent VV competition powders, 3N37 and 3N38. It is very consistent with low flash and very good load density, but won't quite get you the same velocities. If you happen to run across Vectan SP-2, 1200 FPS is also obtainable with the lowest flash signature I have ever seen. It is an excellent high performance powder for the 9mm. Very high load density, obviously high velocity, lowest flash and excellent accuracy.

You must excercise extreme caution when developing high performance loads for the 9 X 19mm. Taper crimping must be thoroughly understood and fast burning powders like Titegroup or W-231 or anything faster than HS-6 is best avoided. Titegroup is good from an economy standpoint, but not from a performance perspective. Look at powders like HS-6 or slower for the 9 and you can have your cake and eat it too, ball powders will not flash as bad as extruded flake propellent and some ball powders are flat outstanding. Just don't use the short OAL that reloading guides and American powder companies supply. They are too short and given because of the number of low priced 9mm pistols that have made their way into the U.S. and most of them require short OAL to reliably function. If you are shooting a high quality 9mm pistol, there is no reason to load the 9 so short except in loads using 88, 90, or 100 grain bullets, and most don't. But, the OAL's listed for lightweights are also shorter than necessary. Look at data at www.lapua.com/reloading (Vihta Vuori) and you will find very good recommendations for 9mm OAL. Here to help if you need it!
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Old May 30, 2005, 08:45 AM   #5
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PP, the brilliant flasher

Me, too
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Old May 30, 2005, 08:59 AM   #6
Jim Watson
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That is all very interesting but I doubt he is headed for the Eastern Front with that combination. A 147 grain cast bullet will do pretty well for casual shooting with 3.0 to 3.4 grains of Titegroup, whatever it takes for reliable function. Load as long as chambering and feeding allow.
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Old May 30, 2005, 10:41 PM   #7
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Didn't see where he is from so I don't know where the Eastern Front would be for 'em. I could still find a better powder to use for a target load than Tite-whatever, and get better load density and acuracy to boot. True Blue would be a good choice!
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Old June 8, 2005, 10:46 PM   #8
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I have had great luck with that old favorite Bullseye and 147gr cast bullets..
3.0 gr of bullseye with an AOL of 1.150 does well in all my nines..
Use the same recipe almost in the 38super,3.5 gr of bullseye and the 147gr cast bullet with an AOL of 1.280..
Both loadings are mild and pleasent to shoot
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Old June 9, 2005, 04:59 AM   #9
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just me

I have never found the required accuracy when loading 147's and 'fast' powders (to include Bullseye, Nitro 100, 700X, AA2, AA2 Improved, and mebbe some others.

But when I reach(ed) for that 3N37, WAP, AA5, WSL (oh, the horror!), HS6, and mebbe some others my groups tighten significantly.

Just me.......

(Last night it was Rainier 124's over WAP; lotsa ammo )
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Old June 9, 2005, 05:53 AM   #10
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It is possible that if I were to try to increase velocity accuracy would suffer
with the fast powders..I don't know..At the moment I have no need for more speed..These loadings do what is wanted for me..
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Old June 9, 2005, 07:07 AM   #11
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blue dot/WSF/HS-6 anything in that range will prolly be your best bet.
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Old June 9, 2005, 09:05 AM   #12
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Tried HS-6 with a jackated bullet and was not pleased,used it up with a 125gr cast bullet that was not to bad at all..Use Blue Dot with a jacketed 121-125 gr and it is wonderfull..It is rather bulkie so I have doubts about using it with a heaver bullet.will there be enough room in that little 9mm case??
All in all I would like to eliminate the cast bullet completely but the selection of bullets,jacketed or cast, in this area is very poor..Most suppliers will not ship to Mass either,thanks to the A G ,so that leaves one in a constant search pattern..Bullets like handguns in this state are harder to find and MORE expensive than anywhere els in the free world..
I know,move to a different state but the wife doesn't wish to and I guess I am getting to old to argue with her,at least about something that I have no chance of winning..
So I do the best I can with what I have and still enjoy myself..
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Old June 9, 2005, 12:42 PM   #13
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POI shifting Left or Righ with change in Powder

RUS5924 ( & Others )

Not sure I understand how:

A Different powder
causes
The POI to shift either Left or Right from the that of a different powder.

I can understand Higher or Lower (Velocity) ....but Left or Right ??


I have heard this before in discussion about loading for Cowboy action with fixed sights.....
i.e.....changes in velocity cause POI to shift left or right
( as well as up or down )

I can see where lower velocity causes bullet to remain in the barrel longer {while it is rising due to recoil}, thereby causing a rise in POI.

But Left or Right ?????

[ Could it have something to do with Gyroscopic action ??
The rising Barrel's impulse on the spinning bullet ?? ]
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Old June 10, 2005, 01:51 AM   #14
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Bompa, you can use Blue Dot for the 147 loads. You may get a compressed powder charge depending on the charge, but that is not a problem so long as you follow the recommendations for charge and OAL. Blue Dot compresses fairly easily and there are a number of safe loads given that will require it to be compressed. For Pure accuracy Ramshot True Blue is turning some heads. I too like the slower burners and True Blue falls into the same range which is a bit of an anomaly. Consider it a slower burning target powder. It's very much like 3N37 in all aspects except that it may or may not give the high velocities, which are not an issue in this case! If flash isn't an issue and it is not for me with non defensive loads, Blue Dot will also give pretty good velocity with the 147s!
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Old June 10, 2005, 05:16 AM   #15
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bullets don't fly straight

'left or right' can be from the shooter reacting to a different recoil impulse, or if you can imagine a light on the very tip of a speedboat propeller churning through the water.....got that image?
Now follow the light......it 'corkscrews' through the water.
Bullets kinda do the same thing; why you can get a 3" group at 50 yds but a 5" group at 75 and a 2" group at 100..........
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Old June 10, 2005, 09:44 AM   #16
renaissance7697
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CorkScrews ???

WeShoot2:

With ALL Due RESPECT......

and...I say that in all sincerity, having read so very many of your
comments is this and other forums.... Sensible,Learned,
concise and clear......

I find what you suggest; difficult to accept.

If the bullet "corkscrews" as you suggest... It seems that the center of the POI pattern, would move in a spiral the diameter of which can only increase with distance, The diameter of the corkscrew spiral being the distance between POA and center of the pattern representing the loci of POI.

The "scatter" of the pattern itself would be due to other factors

Nowhere would the "light on the tip of the propeller" converge on the axis of the spiral (corkscrew) >>> 2" at 100 while 5" at 75.

I fail to see how the Direction in which the POI varies from the POA at ANY distance could be affected by this theoretical "corkscrew".

Am I missing something here..... (like perhaps a little humor ??)

I would like to hear other opinions on this from the forum.

renaissance is eager to know....


renaissance@renman.cnc.net
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Old June 11, 2005, 05:21 AM   #17
WESHOOT2
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fact

Boollits dont fli stra8t.


Perhaps my analogy was (fatally) flawed, but the POI can return to center, and groups can open and close at distance.

Fact (see, I read about it, then I tested it --cause I'm an unbeliever-- then I proved it to meself, then I mentioned it here).
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