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Old May 16, 2005, 03:03 PM   #1
Sturm&Rugerfan
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Pittsburgh Gun Show Accident

This weekend a 65yr old man was accidently shot while looking at gun.
http://kdka.com/local/local_story_136101211.html is a news link about this accident.

Now I am 24yr old ahnd have been to about 20 gunshows and very many gunshows and local sporting goods stores. It is my practice to check a gun even after I just witnessed a salesperson check it in front of me. To me guns all always loaded since saftey and my life come first. Now I feel a 64yr old and the firearm's vendor should have known better.

All of you out there take this as a lesson to never take a another person's judgement to heart that any firearm is unloaded until you safely check it yourself.
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Old May 16, 2005, 03:09 PM   #2
just one question
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well

At a gun show in my area years a go. Some quack was going to tables when no one was looking and loading the guns. There was one acidental discharge that day. But it was into the air. No one was hurt.

maybe the same thing happened at that show.
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Old May 16, 2005, 03:23 PM   #3
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I second that.
I drop the clip and check the chamber on every gun I handle, even after the sales person hands it to me after doing the same thing.

Most of the gunshows here in MN, the majority of the booths have security wire running through their guns, or have locks on them, or in locked display cases.

It would be interesting to know how/why the gun was loaded.
I always keep an eye on those around me and what they are doing. Try to stay away from large groups of people looking at guns. (Espically behind me)

/edit: After thought. There was an intentional discharge of a firearm here in St. Paul MN last year? maybe? And the person came in a loaded a pistol with a 22 round and shot at the ground. 2-3 people sustained injuries from a bullet fragment. I always wonder what the reaction is of all the people at the gun show is when a round goes off. Although this is a very serious situation, it always brings a snicker ot my face to think about the reaction and how many guns get pulled when something like that happens. Kind of like "hit the deck" sort of stuff going on. I know it would scare the $*** outta me!!!!
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Old May 16, 2005, 04:09 PM   #4
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Apparently the man who fired the gun wasn't the man who got hit by the bullet.

It is important that the people you take to the gun show observe the same safety practices as you do.
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Old May 16, 2005, 04:28 PM   #5
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I check a gun anytime it is handed to me.
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Old May 16, 2005, 04:53 PM   #6
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Quote:
I always wonder what the reaction is of all the people at the gun show is when a round goes off
Lived through that one. Turns out, it was just a really loud air soft gun, thankfully. The place was immediately silent, some people dove on the ground. After people started to figure out what had happened, everyone went back to talking and such. I was halfway across the show at that point, so I never seen what happened to the guys that did it.

But yeah, first thing I od when I get a gun is to pop upon the action and see if it is empty.
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Old May 16, 2005, 05:15 PM   #7
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I witnessed this happening in Pensacola. A dealer handed a customer his carry gun, after "unloading" it by removing the mag. The customer pulled the trigger while holding the gun sideways. It hit a man 10 yards away in the arm. Place went quiet, then went back to business as the interested parties were removed.

The cops came and arrested the dealer/gun owner - as it should be. The responsibility for the proper unloading and safe handling of a firearm rests with the owner. I don't expect anyone else to know how to unload a P7 or a Webley - there are too many guns to assume anyone "knows better" - especially in a room full of first time buyers.
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Old May 16, 2005, 05:24 PM   #8
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they should have arrested the person who pulled the trigger also
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Old May 16, 2005, 05:41 PM   #9
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I've been to the Pittsburgh/Monroeville gun show in the past. I guess I'll be on the lookout for idiots if I ever go again. I can't believe how careless people can be when it comes to guns.
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Old May 16, 2005, 06:45 PM   #10
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From what I heard from some of the vendors, that will likely be the last expomart gun show for a LONG time. A few vendors were telling me that the Expomart ownership is generally anti-gun, and have been waiting for an excuse to give everyone the boot.

From what I hear about the accident, (and by no means am I claiming that this is accurate) some guy traded in a gun (which was loaded) and no one checked it. A few hours later, another man came by and asked to see it, and accidentally shot another man in the leg.

Which means :
Security did not tag it.
The dealer accepted an untagged gun
The seller left it loaded
The dealer did not check it
The dealer did not check it again
The guy, hours later, did not check the chamber either.
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Old May 16, 2005, 06:59 PM   #11
Handy
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they should have arrested the person who pulled the trigger also
Why, the gun's owner told him it was unloaded. How much responsibility can you put on someone who knows nothing about guns?
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Old May 16, 2005, 08:12 PM   #12
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I know people sometimes take for granted that a gun has been checked but I was told when I first started shooting that a gun is always loaded until you personally check it. Just be thankful that no one was seriously hurt and watch your back at shows. There are lots of "weirdos" out there. I know--I have heard horror stories from the prison I work at. My motto---"Trust no one-not even yourself--check and recheck and watch your back".
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Old May 16, 2005, 09:04 PM   #13
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the show I go to(at the Clark County Fairgrounds) requires all guns to be zip tied through the chambers in an automatic, or made unfireable with zip ties. No CCWs are allowed even...
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Old May 17, 2005, 03:15 AM   #14
LAK
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What Handy said.

And as much as we would like to see every American with a degree of gun savvy; people who do not know must be afforded the assumption of them being in a safe condition in good faith when they are handed over the counter by a dealer.
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Old May 17, 2005, 04:32 AM   #15
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Every gun is loaded, unitl I look

I had one person at a gun show tell me not to rack the slide on a new gun.
I asked him how was I to know if it was loaded or not. His answer was I checked them all this morning. (It was after 4pm)
I put the gun down and told him that he was stupid and his attitude was going to get some one killed.
He wasnt really happy with that comment, mater of fact he got real mad, happly several people standing by commented to him that they all agreed with me and one man even told him to shut up.
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Old May 17, 2005, 07:10 AM   #16
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Besides the fact

that he (the shooter) should have checked the gun, to make sure it was empty, He also should have kept the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. Which, at most gun shows, means skyward. When I handle or examine a gun (even AFTER checking to see if its loaded) I STILL keep the muzzle pointed away form anyone.
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Old May 17, 2005, 08:53 AM   #17
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" Why, the gun's owner told him it was unloaded. How much responsibility can you put on someone who knows nothing about guns?"

Oh, please. He pointed the gun at someone and pulled the trigger.

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Old May 17, 2005, 10:17 AM   #18
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A few years ago the wife and I tool her niece with us to a gunshow. The tires on my wifes wheelchair were quite low and when we stopped on the way to fill them discovered that her tire gauge was gone. I topped the tires off by feel and, as we know now, overfilled them.
As we entered the gunshow, we went over a bump in the doorway and one tire had a loud blowout. People hit the floor all over and one guy (off-duty cop) came back up with a drawn pistol. We got teased about it and the niece still talks about it.
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Old May 17, 2005, 10:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
always wonder what the reaction is of all the people at the gun show is when a round goes off. Although this is a very serious situation, it always brings a snicker ot my face to think about the reaction and how many guns get pulled when something like that happens
i have to find this email a friend sent me for a darwin award nominee. i never bothered to check it out for factuality, but the basic story was this guy tried to rob a gun store. during business hours. with a marked squad car out front. he walks in firing his .22LR target pistol, the guy behind the desk pulls his desert eagle, cop pulls his glock, a half dozen other customers pull their CCs. a small battle of shots later from a bunch of different guns, this guy and the front of the store are barely recognizable. it was a funny read. i'll see if i can find the story, and then see if i can find out whether or not it's true.
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Old May 17, 2005, 11:20 PM   #20
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One of the first things I teach students is how to look at a gun. The person with the gun checks to make sure it's empty and hands it to the person who wants to look at it. The person receiving it looks to make sure it's empty. There is no exception to this rule.

Something else to look out for at a gun show is anyone picking up a gun with their finger on the trigger. When I see that I move away. My rule is finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target. If you want to try the trigger make sure the gun is pointed in a safe direction.
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Old May 17, 2005, 11:37 PM   #21
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Same thing happened at a "smallish" gun show here in Phoenix, at the VFW hall a few years back. I remember hitting the floor.

The "theat", then as now, is really not professional dealers, but the private sales guys, for whom some of their inventory could very well be there personal "carry" battery.

Be especially weary of them and anyone hanging out at there tables, as they also draw the neophytes whom, for whatever reason, are desperate to avoid the paperwork. They seem to avoid the safe gun-handling classes as well.
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Old May 19, 2005, 07:09 AM   #22
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that situation sucks

I agree with handy, if you are the person who knows what you are talking about, you are the one resopnsible, I aways pretend that there is a laser beam coming out of the barrel and I make sure that my 'lazer beam ' is not hitting anybody
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Old May 19, 2005, 08:10 AM   #23
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i have to find this email a friend sent me for a darwin award nominee. i never bothered to check it out for factuality, but the basic story was this guy tried to rob a gun store. during business hours. with a marked squad car out front. he walks in firing his .22LR target pistol, the guy behind the desk pulls his desert eagle, cop pulls his glock, a half dozen other customers pull their CCs. a small battle of shots later from a bunch of different guns, this guy and the front of the store are barely recognizable. it was a funny read. i'll see if i can find the story, and then see if i can find out whether or not it's true.
On 3 February 1990, David Zaback attempted to hold up H&J Leather & Firearms Ltd., a gun shop located in Renton Highlands near Seattle, Washington. About 4:40 p.m. that day, he entered the crowded shop and announced his intention to rob it by telling everyone to put their hands on the counter and saying if anybody moved, he'd kill them. He then spotted a uniformed policeman having coffee with Wendall Woodall, the shop's owner. What happened next is less than clear in terms of who shot first, but there was an exchange of gunfire between David Zaback, the would-be robber; Timothy Lally, an 18-year veteran of the King County police force; and Danny Morris, one of the shop's clerks.

Zaback, who had fired three times, was shot three times in the chest and once in the arm. He died in the hospital about four hours after the shooting. No one else was injured during the incident, and no charges were subsequently laid against Lally or Morris.

The e-mailed narrative holds up as a news item for the most part, but some of its elements have been altered to make for better storytelling.

"Upon seeing the officer, the would-be robber announced a hold-up, and fired a few wild shots from a .22 target pistol. The officer and a clerk promptly returned fire, the police officer with a 9mm Glock 17, the clerk with a .50 Desert Eagle, assisted by several customers who also drew their guns, several of whom also fired. "

Although the Darwinized account presents the encounter in the humorous light of a hapless robber waving a pop gun being felled in a hail of bullets by a mass of heavily-armed gun shop patrons, that wasn't precisely the way of it. Zaback's weapon was a .38-caliber semiautomatic pistol, not the .22 target pistol of the e-mailed account. The clerk, Morris, fired a 10mm semiautomatic pistol, not a .50 Desert Eagle, and the policeman, Lally, fired a 9mm semiautomatic pistol. As for the participation of others, according to Renton police Capt. Don Persson, although several other customers had guns and pulled them, they did not shoot — the only ones involved in the exchange of lead were Zaback, Lally, and Morris.

"The robber was pronounced dead at the scene by Paramedics. Crime scene investigators located 47 expended cartridge cases in the shop. The subsequent autopsy revealed 23 gunshot wounds. Ballistics identified rounds from 7 different weapons."

It's unclear how many shots were fired, in part because some of the suspect's shots struck ammunition on a counter, causing the ammunition to explode. "There were slugs all over that place," Persson said. As for Zaback, he died with four wounds in him, one in the arm and three in the chest, not the 23 wounds claimed in the colorized account.

Yet one item of the Darwinized version one would otherwise suspect to have been the product of overwriting does indeed hold up: Renton police Capt. Don Persson said, "The surprising thing is that the man had to walk right past a marked police car to get in the front door."


source
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Old May 19, 2005, 09:58 AM   #24
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Quote:
It's unclear how many shots were fired, in part because some of the suspect's shots struck ammunition on a counter, causing the ammunition to explode. "There were slugs all over that place," Persson said.
Yeah, but "slugs" from the ammunition on the counter wouldn't have rifling marks on them, would they?
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Old May 19, 2005, 04:42 PM   #25
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as they say ..."Safety First". it will be the unloaded one that will cause you the most pain.
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