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Old May 11, 2005, 11:09 AM   #1
keebo52
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Corrosive - primer or powder??

I have several mosin nagants that I like to shoot. The mil surp stuff is really cheap but corrosive. I would like to pull the bullets and reuse the bullets and powder with my own brass and primers. Any thoughts??
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Old May 11, 2005, 11:33 AM   #2
Leftoverdj
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Sounds like a lot more work than it is worth to me. Savings would be very small, if any.

Easier to just resign yourself to packing along a cleaning rod and a milk jug of water based cleaning solution. On the rare occasions I shoot corrosive, I put about half a cup of Murphy's Oil Soap and a couple of ounces of water soluble oil in half a gallon of water and and use that to scrub before my normal cleaning procedure. Never had any problems.
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Old May 11, 2005, 11:42 AM   #3
Mike Irwin
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The primer contains the compounds that are corrosive -- potassium chlorate, which during the chemical reaction caused by the firing cycle, converts to potassium chloride, a close cousin to table salt, and equally hygroscopic.
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Old May 11, 2005, 01:58 PM   #4
alan
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ASAP after firing corrosibe primed ammunition,GI bore cleaner works well, as I suspect other mixes mentioned would too.

At home, try this. Run HOT WATER through the bore, from the chamber, BOILING WATER IF POSSIBLE. This will disolve any salt residue. Then clean as usual.

By the bye, is the barrel of your rifle crome lined? Some were, chamber too, which would prevent salt corrosion.
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Old May 11, 2005, 02:59 PM   #5
Mike Irwin
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GI Bore cleaner works well because it is, by weigh, about 75% water. There are also alkalines that are used to dissolve trace amounts of oil under which corrosive priming residue might hide from straight water alone.

That's why you always see the 'use hot soapy water' advice -- the soap dissolves any remaining oil that can hide potential rust producing salts.
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Old May 11, 2005, 10:14 PM   #6
alan
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keebo52:

Two otrher methods came to mind.
1. Drill primer pocket out of fired case. Solder hose connection to case head. Attach hot water hose, and let it run, flushing salt out of barrel. Clean as you would having fired NC ammunition afterward. You had previously removed bolt from rifle.
2. Get bucket of hot soapy wated. Remove bolt. Stick muzzle into water bucker. Using a snug fitting patch on cleaning rod, rod will act like a suction pump, pulling hot water up barrel. This will flush our corrosive residue. Flush with clean water, ten clean as if fired NC ammunition.

Hot water is good for cleaning all sorts of things. Good luck.
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Old May 12, 2005, 01:29 PM   #7
keebo52
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Thanks for the info on cleaning after firing corrosive ammo but I would like to know if the powder is safe to reuse. The mis surp stuff I have is not that accurate and when I pulled several bullets I found the possible answer. The powder charges ranged from 47.8 gr to 49.6 gr. I believe I can improve the accuracy by pulling and reloading some of the rounds. I plan to leave some corrosive in tact for plinking and such. But for serious shooting I want a better accuracy.
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Old May 12, 2005, 01:54 PM   #8
brickeyee
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Make sure the rounds are all from the same lot. Military smokeless is not 'canister grade' powder and had a larger variation in burning rate. It is loaded to a specified pressure/velocity for the lot of powder. Unless it is very clear the ammunition is from the same lot (factory sealed containers) is is probably not a good idea to assume the powder is the same.
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Old May 12, 2005, 02:08 PM   #9
BigSlick
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One thing comes to mind.

If you aren't getting the accuracy you prefer out of the Nagant why not try a modern smokeless powder (H4895 comes to mind) and work up a load like any other rifle.

Also, what happens when you find the sweet spot for the load using the powder from an unknown source ? Are you going to pull, reweigh and reload every round in the future ?

Keep the milsurp for blasting, clean up like the folks here suggest and keep the brass for working up a tackdriver load that you can duplicate.

You might find a great load for the current case of milsurp, but next case could use a completely different powder.

In any event, how much accuracy is a Nagant capable of delivering ?

BigSlick
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Old May 12, 2005, 03:40 PM   #10
Mike Irwin
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"The powder charges ranged from 47.8 gr to 49.6 gr."

Keebo,

Believe it or not, that may or may not be a critical factor in accuracy.

Virtually all machine made ammunition (worldwide, not just the US) has powder charges that are measured by volume, not weight. As such, the actual weight can vary depending on how the grains packed into the measure.

Julian Hatcher recounts in his one book about how a competitor at the National Matches at Camp Perry (sometime in the 1920s or 1930s) took some of the issued ammo, pulled the bullets, and weighed the charges. He was complaining bitterly about the wide variation in powder charge weights, but ignored the fact that the ammunition was helping competitors break many records that year.
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Old May 12, 2005, 10:58 PM   #11
alan
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Keebo52:

A word about rifle shooting, military ammunition and accuracy.

While I no longer compete, I shot National Match Course Rifle (200, 300 and 600 yard) competition for many years, plus 1000 yards too. I had had an NRA Expert Classification for some years, when I gave it up, eye problems.

Anyhow, using U.S. 30 Caliber Rifles, the 30-06 to begin with, I shot handloads for the most part, using 4895 for short range and 4350 for 600 yards and beyond, weighed charges for 600 yards and beyond.

Anyhow, once upon a time, I came upon one of the "skinny" cans of Frankfort Arsenal National Match 30-06, it was 1965 or 1966 vintage, 240 rounds in Garand Clips. I saved this ammunition for 600 yard competition, as It shot quite well in my rifle. Compared to my handloads, using Sierra 180 grain Matchkings, and weighed charges of powder, this "factory ammunition" shot every bit as well at 600 yards, if not better. I very seriously doubt that Frankfort Arsenal, or ANY government ammunition plant producing Match Ammunition weighed individual charges, for they would still be weighing powder today, or so I suspect.

As for the 7.62 x 54 mm rounds fired in Nagat Rifles, at least some of them could be WW 2 production. If they went BANG when the trigger was pulled, fair enough. Issue, ball ammunition was not competition grade stuff, in anyones army, though assuming reasonable skill on the part of the shooter and reasonable rifle condition, I suspect that 2 - 4 moa could usually be obtained, good enough for hitting human sized targets out to a couple hundred yards or meters.

I do not criticize your shooting but ask the following, given the fairly crude iron sights on these rifles. Can you hold inside 2 - 4 moa at whatever range you are shooting with these rifles? As others have suggested, the ball ammunition is cheap, blast away with it, clean the rifles properly though. For accuracy, try developing loads with currently available propellants, and non corrosive primers.

By the bye, Russian 30 caliber barrels usually take a .311"dia. projectile .308 diameter projectiles might prove a poor fit. There were some U.S. made Nagat rifles that had .308 groove dia. bores. They were Remingtons, I believe, made on contract with Czarist Russia, during WW1.
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Old May 13, 2005, 01:34 AM   #12
Leftoverdj
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Keebo, as Alan has touched on, there is a huge variation in bore size in the Moisin-Nagants. They can run as tight as the .308 he mentioned to at least as loose as .314. To know what you are dealing with, drive a buckshot or lead sinker through the bore and measure it. A thou off either way from bullet size makes little difference with jacketed bullets, but you could be dealing with one of the extremes.
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Old May 13, 2005, 01:40 AM   #13
r.w. schrack
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grand paws solution

grandpaw sweared by ivory soap and a bore brush adding a little water then cleaning it normal. schrack
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