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Old May 12, 2005, 11:31 AM   #51
ATW525
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I like how he throws in a pic of a hollywood explosion from a WWII movie after a picture of the M203 and a 40mm round... yeah... a 40mm will almost make an explosion like that... lol
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Old May 12, 2005, 11:33 AM   #52
novus collectus
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If you want to knock someone off their feet with a .45, hold it by the barrel and hit them with the butt. Hard.
Just made me think. A .45 will knock someone off their feet......if it is strapped to the front of a car that hit them at 20 mph.

It will knock them over......if they are one of those Chinese gymnasts who balance on one foot standing on a knife blade while juggling four bowling balls.


It will knock them of their feet......... if they are a 40 pound midget standing in the microgavity of the moon.
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Old May 12, 2005, 03:26 PM   #53
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I've seen tapes of guys hit with a paintball who fall straight down. It's psychological.

As far as the energy impulse of recoil. Years ago, I did something stupid. A friend had a Winchester 1300 with the pistol grip only. We fired it from our waist and then I, as a mental giant, decided to bring it to eye level to aim it. Firing regular buckshot. Well, I ate the gun. But I didn't fall down. I stood there, put the gun down and just cursed myself out.

I also know several other (including a well known national trainer) who have eaten the 12 gauge the same way. So if the recoil whack of a 12 gauge, equivalent, to the energy of the round, won't knock you over, I doubt a pistol will.
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Old May 12, 2005, 03:47 PM   #54
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Ha - I remember duck hunting from a canoe, tracking some Woodies around until I couldn't turn anymore and ended up holding the shotgun like a pistol just with my hands - recoil pad in front of my mouth - OUCH! fat lip (and I missed too - just to make it worse!).


When talking about (pistol) recoil, don't forget the mass of the slide, the barrel, and the recoil spring. If I remember correctly, a recoiless pistol can be created using a heavy enough spring, it just that it couldn't be operated by hand.
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Old May 12, 2005, 06:01 PM   #55
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can .45 caliber knocksomeone off their feet?
Not if you miss!!!
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Old May 13, 2005, 05:02 AM   #56
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Any firearm with a bullet capable of knocking someone off their feet would have the same effect on the shooter.
Not only that, it would require a bullet that did not expend it's energy deforming, and a human target that offered sufficient surface physical resistance. Bullets tend to want to pass through people - not "knock them down".

In essence, trying to "knock someone down" with a bullet is like trying to do the same with the sharp end of a spear.
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Old May 13, 2005, 11:15 AM   #57
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When talking about (pistol) recoil, don't forget the mass of the slide, the barrel, and the recoil spring. If I remember correctly, a recoiless pistol can be created using a heavy enough spring, it just that it couldn't be operated by hand.
I don't think so.
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Old May 13, 2005, 01:32 PM   #58
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It is amazing to read posts by alleged grown-ups that are basically appeals to magic. No wonder so many jobs are going overseas, people here can't comprehend Junior High science class stuff that was figured out by Newton over 300 years ago. Maybe they can out-source gun forums to India, too?
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Old May 13, 2005, 01:47 PM   #59
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I know, i have to teach older guys at gun stores this all the time when they start up on their 45 banter.
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Old May 13, 2005, 02:36 PM   #60
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"When talking about (pistol) recoil, don't forget the mass of the slide, the barrel, and the recoil spring. If I remember correctly, a recoiless pistol can be created using a heavy enough spring, it just that it couldn't be operated by hand."

Life does not exactly work this way.
There are two things to consider. Momentum and energy.
Momentum determines the velocity the gun recoils with.
Energy is the KE the gun moving with the recoil velocity posses. The energy can be dissipated over a short distance (requires a lot of force applied quickly) or over a longer distance (requires less force applied for longer). A large mass is required to act against for a gun to be made ‘recoilless’. Something has to hold the non-recoiling portion in position against the springs used to store and release the recoil energy.
Artillery anchors to the earth, stores the energy in springs and hydraulics, and then returns to battery. The actual energy is dissipated as heat in the springs and hydraulic fluid. The advantage is that aiming remains consistent from shot to shot since the base did not move (much, the earth still compresses slowly but surely).
Keep in mind the old demonstration of momentum. A weight is hung from a string, and then another string is attached to the weight. Yanking quickly on the bottom string will break it even though the two sections of string have the same strength. A slow pull might break either one. The momentum of the weight reduces the actual force seen by the upper string. The same type of thing must be in place to allow fro transfer of the recoil KE to the storage mechanism.

CastleBravo,
You have no idea of how bad it is sometimes. I have a little office toy on my desk that rocks a wire framework back and forth. I have lost count of the engineers who think it does not need a battery (perpetual motion has been achieved!).
Engineers using the weight of an object in KE equations (lbf is weight, lbm is slugs), let alone th confusion over when to use Newtons and when to use kilograms in calculations.
Or the new engineer that used narrow traces for high current and used inadequate clearances between high voltage traces. He had no real concept of what these things mean.
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Old May 15, 2005, 02:59 PM   #61
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Nope.

How could it, it doesn't knock the shooter off his feet or dislocate his arm, does it?

Vitali Klitschko would knock you out of your socks. Mike Tyson also would. But no handgun can do that.
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Old May 16, 2005, 10:51 AM   #62
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Reminds me of the joke by Ron White. If you just slow the bullet down to 55 mph, put headlights on it, and a horn that's blowing, deer (and I suppose people) will jump right in front of the bullet.
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Old May 16, 2005, 01:23 PM   #63
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Reminds me of the joke by Ron White. If you just slow the bullet down to 55 mph, put headlights on it, and a horn that's blowing, deer (and I suppose people) will jump right in front of the bullet.
Man, you made me laugh my socks off!
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Old May 16, 2005, 05:49 PM   #64
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Okay, everyone has fully convinced me that .45 cannot knock a man down.

Let me ask this then: Where does the idea that the .45 has more stopping power than the 9mm or .38 or the .357 has more stopping power than the .38 come from? What exactly is stopping power? I though it was the ability to knock someone back.

While we are on the subject, why did police departments a few years ago decide to start switching from the 9mm to the .40 caliber handguns? They say "The .40 has more 'stopping' power." but what exactly does that mean? I've heard it said on the history channel that they switched to .40 because of the LA shooting about 10 years ago where those two thugs with body armor from head to toe went down the street shooting it out with police who were armed with .38 special and .9mm handguns that could not penetrate the body armor. So they switched to .40 caliber. But that's nonsense because a .40 caliber bullet won't penetrate body armor either just because body armor is what it is. So why the switch?
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Old May 16, 2005, 06:05 PM   #65
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Good question- they switched because getting hit with a 115 grain 9mm wearing body armor hurts, but a heavy bullet like a 230 grain .45acp or a 180 grain .40 SW will feel like getting hit with a sledgehammer...most people wearing body armor won't be able to stand very long with a barrage of 180-230 grain slugs being thrown at em. Don't forget, handgun bullets dont penetrate vests or knock people of their feet, but they can and will break bones and bruise horribly, and the perp wont be able to tolerate it eventually.
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Old May 16, 2005, 06:16 PM   #66
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or automatically throw people through plate glass windows
You mean that scene in "Last Man Standing" where Bruce Where-has-my-career-gone Willis isn't true? Shocked! I tell ya, shocked!
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Old May 16, 2005, 09:28 PM   #67
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Good question- they switched because getting hit with a 115 grain 9mm wearing body armor hurts, but a heavy bullet like a 230 grain .45acp or a 180 grain .40 SW will feel like getting hit with a sledgehammer...most people wearing body armor won't be able to stand very long with a barrage of 180-230 grain slugs being thrown at em. Don't forget, handgun bullets dont penetrate vests or knock people of their feet, but they can and will break bones and bruise horribly, and the perp wont be able to tolerate it eventually.
Ahhh. So I guess it is more accurate to say that a .45 caliber CAN knock someone back or down (or any bullet depending on the weight and endurance of the shootee) not because of the bullet itself but because of the damage it does to the person. In other words, if I walk up to someone and slug them across the face or in the gut, my fist isn't what knocks them down but the damage and pain from the blow that knocks the energy out of them and damages their nerves.
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Old May 16, 2005, 09:36 PM   #68
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Ahhh. So I guess it is more accurate to say that a .45 caliber CAN knock someone back or down (or any bullet depending on the weight and endurance of the shootee) not because of the bullet itself but because of the damage it does to the person. In other words, if I walk up to someone and slug them across the face or in the gut, my fist isn't what knocks them down but the damage and pain from the blow that knocks the energy out of them and damages their nerves.
essentially, yes. The bullet itself will not knock someone off of their feet, but broken bones and intense pain sure will get them on the ground pretty quickly.
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Old May 16, 2005, 09:36 PM   #69
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Ahhh. So I guess it is more accurate to say that a .45 caliber CAN knock someone back or down (or any bullet depending on the weight and endurance of the shootee) not because of the bullet itself but because of the damage it does to the person. In other words, if I walk up to someone and slug them across the face or in the gut, my fist isn't what knocks them down but the damage and pain from the blow that knocks the energy out of them and damages their nerves.
By George, I think he's got it!!
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Old May 16, 2005, 10:18 PM   #70
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It's a little different, but that's much closer. A blow from a fist will actually push a person back much more strongly than a bullet strike will.

In the test that they did on Mythbusters, it was easy to dislodge the 200lb pig carcass with a gentle push. But even machinegunning with three subguns simultaneously didn't impart enough of a push backwards to knock it off the toggle it was hanging from. There is almost NO push applied by the impact of a bullet.
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Old May 16, 2005, 11:54 PM   #71
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I didn't read the whole thread, so I hope I am not wasting space here.
I have worked as a professional paramedic for over 20 years and have seen quite a few gunshot wounds/victims close up and personal. Most gun owners would be VERY let down when they see the wounds caused by handgun cartridges.
The first shooting I ever went on was done with .45 ACP hardball. A guy asked a girl out, went to her house to pick her up, and her ex-boyfriend shot him through the thigh with a .45.
The guy didn't even care about the wound. He was far more upset about the fact that this other guy couldn't let go of the relationship with this woman. The guy had a through and through wound with no obvious external bleeding. He refused treatment and transport.
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Old May 18, 2005, 07:22 AM   #72
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Ironically, I was watching the "History channel" last night as they had a show on about gunfighters of the old west, and their handguns. One of the show's "experts" stated that a .45 shot from one of the old Colt revolvers was like being hit with a 19 pound sledge hammer and would knock a person flying. How can a so called "expert" perpetuate that myth?, on the History channel no less, when most shooters know its a fallacy? Other then that the show, about gunfighters was excellent, as was the show "Wild West Tech" that followed it. Being we live in the 21st century, we can't have gunfights of course, but even back then most of the fighting stories were exagerrated, not that that should surprise anyone.

Last edited by PythonGuy; May 18, 2005 at 09:38 AM.
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Old May 18, 2005, 08:47 AM   #73
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"...we can't carry..."

Maybe in New York, but 34+ other states allow concealed carry.
I hope you feel safer with everyone disarmed (except the BGs who carry anyway)...
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Old May 18, 2005, 09:43 AM   #74
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My point was we can't have gun fights, not about carrying, although we can't carry in NY. Your comment about "I hope you feel safer with everyone disarmed (except the BGs who carry anyway)..." Where did you get that from, I didn't express any opinion on carrying? Talk about selective picking of words, the post was about the myth of bullet knockdown and the History channel. By the way, I'm not anti-carry, I'm anti-being-stupid while carrying.
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Old May 18, 2005, 10:41 AM   #75
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PythonGuy,

One of the most distressing things about firearms is that it is one of the few fields where the "experts" spread misinformation.

I just read an article yesterday in which the supposed "expert" made a comment about the .45 Peacemaker being able to knock a person down, or something to that effect.

The sad thing is that THIS particular myth is relatively easy to disprove. The science is quite straightforward, and it can be tested without too much trouble. There are others that are much more difficult to disprove but that are just as false.
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