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Old May 10, 2005, 03:39 PM   #26
Zak Smith
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Shooting USPSA/IPSC can help improve your gunhandling and marksmanship. It is not tactics.

I've been shooting IPSC & 3Gun for several years, and last weekend took my first real pistol fighting "tactics" class. My background in marksmanship and gunhandling helped because I could concentrate 100% on learning the tactics, not how to aim, press the trigger, and run the gun.
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Old May 10, 2005, 04:29 PM   #27
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If you have time to take cover, take cover. If you don't have time, don't take cover.....



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Yep -- you got it. That's what we were taught. Don't even think about it -- DROP! Dive, even! ROLL! SHOOT BACK! Don't be predictable! DO be a hard target! Get to cover/concealment. Actually, I'd start rolling to cover even before it is "safer" to do so. The movement involved in rolling makes you a harder target than just being stationary on the ground. Roll -- shoot. Roll -- shoot. Keep moving. Work your way there.
Drop on the ground and roll to cover shooting while someone is shooting at you...?? What happens to a round that's fired at about a 30 degree angle to the ground after it hits the ground?
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Old May 10, 2005, 04:44 PM   #28
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Yeah buddy, rabbit rounds are no fun. Unless someone his hiding along a wall or under a car. If that somebody is you, you are in for some bad times.
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Old May 10, 2005, 09:07 PM   #29
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I'm sorry, but a guy rolling on the ground seems like a much easier target than a guy with a barrel leveled at you.

My usuall thought is fire while sidestepping, something that keeps you moving while keeping lead down-range. Of course all situations are different.
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Old May 10, 2005, 09:42 PM   #30
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I'm sorry Para Bellum, . . . you are definitely entitled to your opinion, . . . but I kinda think maybe you need to re-think your position.

I do not know of any military person (and I have literally known hundreds if not thousands of them) who would abide to your thinking. That goes double for my LEO aquaintances also.

Standing put only gets you one thing: dead. Ask any grunt who walked point on any patrol in France, in Germany, in Korea, in VietNam, in Afghanistan, in Kuwait, in Iraq.

The point man is the expert, . . . the one who can honestly say "Been there, done that". Cover, . . . concealment, . . . and firing on the move is the standard order of business when you detect the enemy and even more so when you have been fired upon.

Standing still, . . . even with an M16 on rock and roll, finger on the trigger, 30 round clip, . . . it is no match for a determined enemy 15 feet from you that missed his first round and is sending the followup right now. You are dead meat, . . . just need to cool to room temperature and be sent home in the plastic bag.

Street scenarios are no different from Ticrit, Bagdad, or Kuwait City. The bg wants you dead, . . . just for a different reason.

You all may not have paint ball places over where you call home, . . . but if you do, . . . challenge a friend or two to purposely miss you with the first round or two: try moving and shooting as opposed to standing and shooting. I guarantee if the guy is any kind of paintballer at all, . . . if you don't move, . . . he'll paint you so many times, . . . you'll think you are a 10 year old billboard when he gets done.

Anyway, . . . think about it, . . .

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Old May 10, 2005, 09:53 PM   #31
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There are simply too many varitables which effect the answer, range, number of attackers, distance to cover, type of cover, your weapon, hisor their weapons. etc so there can be no one always correct answer.
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Old May 11, 2005, 08:08 AM   #32
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Moving and shooting practice....

Best place and time to do this are competition(s).....I just joined IPSC and many of the shoot scenario(s) are move and shoot. Not to mention shoot from cover etc.

Plus its one of the few places you can engage multiple targets...and other targets with hostages.

A lot of fun too.
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Old May 11, 2005, 08:55 AM   #33
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"I'm sorry, but a guy rolling on the ground seems like a much easier target than a guy with a barrel leveled at you."

Nope. Not even close. Remember, the guy that is on the ground is also pointing a gun at you, and has a more stable firing platform. Look at the frontal area of the target. The guy on the ground is presenting a target about 1/3 to 1/4 the size of the frontal one (or less, depending on build and distance to the enemy), and all shots at the prone guy (except for the head, which is going to be about the same, spine is worse, however.) are going to be at less than optimum angles for the COM. And then there's the perception that if a person is going down, they must be hit, so therefore isn't a threat and doesn't need engaging -- it can buy you an extra split second. Also, remember the "out of sight, out of mind" principle, where if you decrease your visibility you decrease the other's awareness. By dropping below eyesight level, you have become less noticable to the enemy. If you drop below the line of sight, you are obscured by the barrel and the enemy's arms in your enemy's sight picture, he can't see you to shoot, meaning he has to reacquire you in his sights -- it buys you another split second. And then there's the practice factor, in that people practice shooting at targets that would be in a position that is at about standing COM level -- it throws everything off if the target hits the dirt, the angles are no longer what they practiced shooting at -- meaning that all things considered the fire is less effective.

Really -- think about this, folks. Who knows more about this than the military? What does the military teach, and why? Standing up and taking your shots is so, uh, 19th century, and it's a real good way to get yourself killed. Part of the bloody slaughter of WWI was due to orders to just stand up and rush machine guns, instead of low crawling like in WWII. What Dwight55 is saying is correct: "Standing put only gets you one thing: dead."
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Old May 11, 2005, 08:59 AM   #34
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Now I had quite some training with IPSC Shooters who compete on the internatinonal level. They had a good argument: Moving to cover takes too much time. And they make a point. Drawing and two alhpa-hits on each of 4 (four!) targets in 3 Seconds.
I think that this argument shows a focus on hitting a target as quickly as possible. In other words, the mind set of competitive shooting is at work here.

Life isn't that way. It ain't that simple. The goal in a gunfight is survival, not hitting a target or beating a timer. If you fire no shots and just get the hell out of Dodge, you survived and achieved your goal. If you take 15 seconds to run hide behind a dumpster, and wait for your attacker to round the corner, you survive. If you take your opponent to the ground and stick a J frame in his ribs to get your shot, you survive.

There are three considerations here........
#1 If you are in the open, movement is your only protection from incoming fire. Movement makes your attacker depend more on luck than skill. The quickest way of negating any skill your opponent has is to give him a laterally moving target. Make the movement erratic, and his skill goes down even more.

#2 Empty magazines/cylinders are not a good thing. Shooting wildly while seeking cover will leave you defenseless. Unless you can reliably hit moving targets while on the move, it's preferable to conserve ammo for when you can use it effectively. Let the other guy empty his magazine while trying to get lucky with a wild shot.

#3 Tactics end gunfights, not accuracy, not speed, not XYZ caliber or gun. You can have everything else in your favor and if your tactics fail, you are counting on luck to survive. Note I said tactics end gunfights, not win them.

At least those are my thoughts.

Quote:
"Just out of curiosity, how many of you guys get to practice moving and shooting, whether it's laterally or rushing the bad guys."
I do.
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Old May 11, 2005, 09:05 AM   #35
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Frank is right...take cover when available

Running away would be best if that is an option

But it really does depend.......

For instance....bad guy 10 feet in front of you....cover is 20 feet behind you...

Turning your back on the bad guy and running to cover would probably be a bad idea


Moving laterally on the draw and then backing towards cover while firing might be a good idea

Advancing on him while emptying your weapon might be better


Once again...it depends
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Old May 11, 2005, 09:12 AM   #36
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I have also shot IPSC, loved it and definitely improved my gunhandling skills. However, if cover is available, go to cover. Your 1.5 second draw and hit presumes that the BG's actions have created a definte "shoot" situation. While it MAY be appropriate to stand your ground and engage a solo attacker, the move to cover becomes more critical as the number of attackers grows. To stand in place for five seconds to get three "A" zone double taps on three adversaries gives BG#2 on your firing order about three seconds of safe time to target you and BG#4 about four seconds. Accessing cover (if possible) will shield you and limit your exposure to 1 BG at at time as you slice the pie and engage them. The next time you are at a match, watch the shooters on a multiple target stage, place yourself (mentally) in the position of one of the targets and ask yourself: If I were opposing him, could I take him out before he got to me?
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Old May 11, 2005, 10:42 AM   #37
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"Life isn't that way. It ain't that simple. The goal in a gunfight is survival, not hitting a target or beating a timer."

Exactly. The point really isn't engaging targets -- it is survival, and who cares about the timer when there isn't one.

"#1 If you are in the open, movement is your only protection from incoming fire. Movement makes your attacker depend more on luck than skill. The quickest way of negating any skill your opponent has is to give him a laterally moving target. Make the movement erratic, and his skill goes down even more."

Good point, but in practice it turns out that movement towards the ground is better at the onset than lateral movement. Not that lateral movement is bad, because it isn't. But a fast move downward is better. Both is better yet. That's the point of drop and roll, or dive (moves down and elsewhere simultaneously). If you are just moving laterally, you are still presenting a relatively large frontal target, and you haven't removed yourself from line of sight. Also remember: While you are drawing, movement is your ONLY defense, at least for us civilian types without any sort of armor.

"#2 Empty magazines/cylinders are not a good thing. Shooting wildly while seeking cover will leave you defenseless. Unless you can reliably hit moving targets while on the move, it's preferable to conserve ammo for when you can use it effectively. Let the other guy empty his magazine while trying to get lucky with a wild shot."

Yes and no. It is quite true that an empty cylinder/magazine isn't going to do you any good, especially if you don't have a ready reload. But let's not forget the psychological effect of return fire, even if not aimed. Not so much as to empty the cylinder/mag, just a couple of shots will do. It reverses initiative, making the enemy react to your fire thus disrupting his. It is quite possible to both supply suppressive fire while at the same time conserving ammo, the military does this sort of thing all the time. I mean, look at what I've got -- 7 in the mag, 1 in the chamber, 1 extra mag of 7. I can afford to snap shoot a couple of times to reverse initiative, leaving me 6 in the gun and an extra 7 (for after cover is attained) -- plenty enough to disrupt an attack and allow me to survive long enough to reach cover if available, and then provide covering fire for my withdrawl. That's really all I care about. Actual hits on the enemy aren't really what matters here -- survival is. I'm not a LEO nor a soldier, my purpose is just survival in nature, not offensive. To all of you competition shooters: Ok, you are fast, but how fast and accurate are you going to be while there's incoming? It matters, it'll throw you off.

"#3 Tactics end gunfights, not accuracy, not speed, not XYZ caliber or gun. You can have everything else in your favor and if your tactics fail, you are counting on luck to survive. Note I said tactics end gunfights, not win them."

Quite right. Actually, speed does matter. But not speed on the draw, or even how fast you can double tap. What I'm talking about is reaction time between when you recognize a threat until you can get to cover, concealment or at least on the ground, moving. You have to move FAST. The faster, the better. The less time exposed, the greater your survival chances. Whatever you do, DON'T remain stationary, unless you already have cover. Even then, you need to move. As far as winning gunfights, I'd consider any gunfight you survive as one you have won. Survival is the key. It is sorta like the old saying amongst aviators: "Any landing you walk away from is a good landing."
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Old May 11, 2005, 10:59 AM   #38
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gb,
You make good points. Allow me to state my case.

The reason I say move laterally is that it is easier and quicker to move to cover on your feet and return fire while running than it is to roll to cover and return fire while rolling. Of course, this all situational, and depends a great deal on how close cover is.

The argument for suppressive fire is merited, but I see it as a risky prospect if your enemy decides to follow you anyway, and you have a limited amount of ammo. I carry 7+1 and a spare magazine or at other times 5 plus a speedloader. Your argument to get off a couple of shots to change the initiative has a lot of merit though. That is why I train to shoot while moving. I want those shots to be as accurate as possible. My argument is against shooting wildly, which opens up a whole 'nuther can 'o worms.
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Old May 11, 2005, 11:22 AM   #39
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XavierBreath:

About lateral movement to cover vs drop & roll to cover: I'd say that if you can dash or dive to cover before he has time to get off another shot (assuming he has already shot), I'd agree with you. So, if cover is close, a direct lateral move to it may be advisable. If not, if the adversary may have time to get a shot off before you reach cover, then I'd advise the drop and roll. By doing so you are minimizing yourself as a target while you are in the open, since you are going to be in the open anyway. Given the choice of presenting a large target vs a smaller one, I'll go the smaller target route.
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Old May 11, 2005, 12:43 PM   #40
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Movement is cover.

Sure, you can stand there and hope that you get a round in each of the targets, but what if you don't? What if that last target has enough time to put just one round downrange at your position?

Moving off of the line of attack, even if there is no hard cover or concealment within twenty paces, is far better than standing still and trading shots with the bad guys.

Remember, you might train to shoot on the move, and shoot accurately, but the bad guys surely aren't. Therein lies your advantage.
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Old May 11, 2005, 01:22 PM   #41
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Keep in mind the 'knife distance' of about 20 yards.
Even if you score multiple CofM hits they are likely close enough to be on you before being incapacitated.
Unless you want to rely on the BGs all just standing there when you open fire (they may, they may flee, and do you want to RELY on this?) you need to move away from the problem.
Dropping and rolling sounds really tactical, until the BG is standing over you before halting the attack. Stay on your feet.
Movement darn well is cover. If you practice shooting at moving targets remember how poorly you did at first. The lead is going the other way now.
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Old May 11, 2005, 01:40 PM   #42
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Lateral movement is good because you require them to move to reaquire the target. Backing straight up just moves you farther away which slowly makes you a tougher target, but lateral movement often means your opponent has to move his feet.


Studies have shown that people will often shoot where you were...not where you are....

So don't be where you were...or simply 10 feet farther back...MOVE!

Also........


Once you are on the ground it is darn awkward to get back up off it

And you have lost your mobility (for the most part)

So...if you are going prone...or something in between it had better be behind cover.

Which can be as little as a curb or as much as a building
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Old May 11, 2005, 02:10 PM   #43
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I would say that tumbling, rolling, cart wheels, somersaults, trapeze acts and other feats of acrobatics while carrying a loaded handgun are probably not a good idea in any circumstance.

Dropping prone may save your life or be a fatal mistake depending on the circumstances. The biggest factor is the distance between you and the bg, and in most self defense situations I imagine it won't be anywhere near enough. It's highly unlikely anybody's going to announce thier intention to mug or rape you from 50 yards away.
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Old May 11, 2005, 10:51 PM   #44
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This whole thing is a problem for me. I'm not alone very often. My wife is with me most of the time. She is NOT athletic...neither am I anymore. We're 55 now and some health issues prevent running(very far or fast) or even getting down for cover,These things really make a person think about where you go, when you go and how you'll deal with trouble. I've got to find a way to try more of this move and shoot stuff and get some kind of moving target idea thats workable. Need to make target shooting more real world. Of coarse the anti's will just say we're practicing killing! I'll be practicing SURVIVING!
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Old May 15, 2005, 03:01 PM   #45
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Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you very much for your time and thought!

Quote:
I'm sorry, but a guy rolling on the ground seems like a much easier target than a guy with a barrel leveled at you.
I agree.

Quote:
Remember, the guy that is on the ground is also pointing a gun at you, and has a more stable firing platform.
that would only lock my arms and slow my response time on a moving target...

Quote:
Once again...it depends
That's the point I was trying to make or at least - discuss. Move to/and cover seems to be a dogma in some places. And I consider all dogmas dangerous. For instance in an attack which actually happend to a very close friend of mine, the bad guy stormed the good guys office with a knife, cornered him and stabbed the good guys head until the folding blade's joint broke. Goody guy hardly survived but - recovered. In this situation there would have been any place to run or hide. So focussing on as many good hits as rapidly possible would have been the winning strategy.
However, if you face a gunfight standing right behind the engine-hood of your car, dropping and getting cover behind the engine block makes 100% sense, so...
... it depends, doesn't it?

Quote:
Remember, you might train to shoot on the move, and shoot accurately, but the bad guys surely aren't.
Why not? Some bad guys have excellent training.

Quote:
Keep in mind the 'knife distance' of about 20 yards.
Even if you score multiple CofM hits they are likely close enough to be on you before being incapacitated.
Unless you want to rely on the BGs all just standing there when you open fire (they may, they may flee, and do you want to RELY on this?) you need to move away from the problem.
Dropping and rolling sounds really tactical, until the BG is standing over you before halting the attack. Stay on your feet.
Movement darn well is cover. If you practice shooting at moving targets remember how poorly you did at first. The lead is going the other way now.
Good post, good points. Everybody: Let's think about the plausible scenarious in which each of you would draw and shoot...
... let's face it: When you are cornered. Either locked in your car, or in a shop or bank or in your office. With no place to run or hide and walls or at least glass everywhere. So I do believe as a rule that drawing and hitting speed is the key for civilian handgun carrying survial.
Beause if we aren't cornered, we will just run away. At least I would.

Stay safe and sound.
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Old May 16, 2005, 01:25 PM   #46
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When your best defense is a quick, hard offense...

The intro to this forum put's it pretty well:
Quote:
When your best defense is a quick, hard offense, ...
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Old May 16, 2005, 05:06 PM   #47
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Quote:
Moving to cover takes too much time. And they make a point. Drawing and two alhpa-hits on each of 4 (four!) targets in 3 Seconds.
My question is, if the bad guy is already shooting at you, how many hits can HE get in the seconds your drawing and acquiring? He's already drawn and acquired.

I don't shoot IPSC, but common sense says that if he has me in his sights, its a higher priority to get me out of his sights before stopping to return fire.
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Old May 16, 2005, 05:57 PM   #48
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I don't shoot IPSC, but common sense says that if he has me in his sights, its a higher priority to get me out of his sights before stopping to return fire.
That's a real world decision you have to make on the fly in a real-world situation. A friend of mine and his partner walked into a McDonalds that was being held-up unbeknownst to them, both in uniform. He walked up to the counter and the bad guy put a gun right to the side of his head and said "Don't pull your sh!t man!" Just after he got to "man", he DID pull his sh!t and shot the guy through the gut with a .357 Super Vel round. The bad guy went down and the good guys were none the worse for wear. Maybe the next guy who put a gun to his head would have blown his brains all over his partner. You can't practice for every eventuality. Sometimes you just have to wing it. If he went for cover, there's a good chance he, or someone other than the bad guy would have been shot.

Then there's another guy I worked with who, when a bad guy pulled a gun while fleeing a burglary, hid behind the city councilwoman who lived at that house and who was standing in the yard. She was a big woman.
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Old May 17, 2005, 03:05 AM   #49
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This is one of those issues that can not be addressed adequately as a hard and fast rule. It depends on a great many things which will only be apparent to the individual at the time and place.

How far away is the nearest cover? What kind of cover is it? Will going there place you in a position where you may be trapped? How many antagonists are there? What are they armed with? How far away are they - or each of them? Etc.

In some circumstances it may be wise to simply drop to the ground prone and then shoot for example.
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Old May 17, 2005, 06:58 AM   #50
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Dave R said,
Quote:
My question is, if the bad guy is already shooting at you, how many hits can HE get in the seconds your drawing and acquiring? He's already drawn and acquired.

I don't shoot IPSC, but common sense says that if he has me in his sights, its a higher priority to get me out of his sights before stopping to return fire.
Right. What a lot of gun folks really do not seem to actually understand is that a defensive gunfight (the sort most of us will be in if we are ever in one), the goal is not simply shooting the bad guy, but not letting the bad guy shoot you. Having the shoot end in a draw where neither party is harmed means you get to go home. Sure, the bad guy maybe gets away, but so do you.

What is not understood is that killing the bad guy doesn't necessarily make you the winner. There have been many shootings in recent years where both the bad guy and good guy die. That means the shooting ends in a draw, the bad kind of draw, but since the good guy is dead, what is the point?

While many folks think that the first rule of a gun fight is to have a gun, but in reality the first rule of a gun fight should be to NOT get shot!
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