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Old March 14, 2005, 10:12 PM   #1
snacktrack
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Is it legal to "hint" what is on your hip?

I know that brandishing is illegal and will quickly get your CCw license taken away if the jerk decides to call the cops on you. But, say someone is threatening you and you feel like a confrontation is already in progress. After you say, hey man I dont want any trouble. Then the guy hell bent on proving his machoness, says "well you got a f-in problem now b*tch"

Would it be a good idea to put your hand into "ready to draw position" without actually reaching in for your gun, and say" you might want to rethink your assault on me, now I am asking you again to leave me alone"

What are your thoughts on this? I just am very leary of the thought of all or nothing. Retreat, or shoot. There has to be a way to let them know you arent the helpless victim that they assume you are, otherwise they wouldnt be threatening you.
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Old March 14, 2005, 10:15 PM   #2
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As long as he cant see the gun i think you would be ok. But if he touchs you or pushs u i think u can pull it out. Im not to sure about pulling it out but i know you are safe as long as it stays out of view you can see the out line but as long as it is covered.
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Old March 14, 2005, 10:31 PM   #3
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Why would you immediately think about using a gun, even as a leverage tool, at the first sign of a confrontation? If you even hint to the aggressor that you're packing you run the risk of him ceasing the confrontation and calling the police to report that you pulled a gun on him. An "in between" step might prove useful here. Something like O.C. (pepper spray) Maybe brandishing O.C. could de-escalate the situation?

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Old March 14, 2005, 11:17 PM   #4
snacktrack
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Why would you immediately think about using a gun, even as a leverage tool, at the first sign of a confrontation
Because the second sign of a violent confrontation may be you knocked out with a punch to the face. What my main goal would be is to de-escalate the situation. After making several warnings to leave me alone and he still comes towards you in a threatening manner, the next step is him getting violent on you. I want to avoid shooting anyone any way I can. What fool would want to threaten you knowing you are armed instead of a helpless victim?
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Old March 14, 2005, 11:24 PM   #5
chris in va
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It's a good question, curious about it myself.

I gotta ask though, what would you do if you DIDN'T have a gun?
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Old March 15, 2005, 02:36 AM   #6
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What fool would want to threaten you knowing you are armed instead of a helpless victim?
Uniformed LEOs are attacked all of the time.

IMO, if you feel you are in danger, draw the weapon. If you do not feel you are in enough danger to warrant deadly force, attempt to leave, but do not "act" like you are going to draw. That is just a mild form of brandishing. You are threatening the individual with a firearm which is your stated intent.

What happens if you succeed in running the guy off only to have him get PO'ed and call 911 to report that you where threatening him with a gun? His word against yours. You do have a gun. His name is on the police form under "victim." Guess which heading your name is under?
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Old March 15, 2005, 03:18 AM   #7
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In Colorado, it can be considered brandishing even if you only say you have a gun or even reach under your coat as though to put your hand on one. I've heard this both from my CCW class and from a friend that was a cop.

So here it's all or nothing as well.

I like the idea of the spray. Before I could CCW I used to carry spray, and a couple of friends made fun of me for it because it seemed unmanly. I'd answer with, "Hey -- I'm still going to kick somebody's butt if they come after me. I just figure it'll be easier if they can't see and are having trouble breathing!"

Knowing when to reach for a weapon is difficult even for cops. By the time a situation escalates to the point they can use their weapon or even feel a need to draw it, they are often too tied up in what's happening. Even a LEO can't just shoot everyone who looks at him wrong or seems in a bad mood.

The gun is the weapon of last resort. Your other weapons to break free or get away or get clear to draw a gun are at the ends of your arms and between your ears.
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Old March 15, 2005, 06:41 AM   #8
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An intermediate weapon between that of your bare hands (etc) and a firearm is usually a good idea.
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Old March 15, 2005, 07:27 AM   #9
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Hkmp is right

Attempt to leave. Turn and run like the wind. It takes a brave man to act like a coward.
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Old March 15, 2005, 02:47 PM   #10
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I've had a few situations which have been diffused by my "flight" response. Either by walking or running away or by profusely apologizing for anything that may have angered the other person.
This usually leaves me feeling nausiated like I want to throw up and replaying it over in my head as to how I should have engaged in a fight so I didn't look like a coward.
In the grand scheme of things I always manage to convince myself that I did the right thing because:
1) I'm still alive
2) I still have full function of all body parts
3) I'm not in jail.
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Old March 15, 2005, 03:04 PM   #11
Garand Illusion
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Attempt to leave. Turn and run like the wind. It takes a brave man to act like a coward.
Wise words. Some years ago I got into a dispute with some drunk jerks who were tearing things up on one of my favorite 4wd roads. We were miles from nowhere and it was just me and my wife and athere were 6 of them.

I had a .357 in the car, but obviously didn't want to escalate to gun fire nad even though I was seeing red and REALLY wanted to start punching the biggest loudmouth, given the situation I apologized and backed down and drove away.

Still gives me a sick feeling, but it was the smart thing to do.

I find when I'm carrying I'm likewise smarter and less agressive. So if something does escalate I'll know i did everything possible to avoid it.
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Old March 15, 2005, 03:44 PM   #12
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The best way to de-escalate is to leave. The best way to show an attempt at de-escalation is an attempt to leave.

That being said, every situation is unique, as is every location. Be aware that if you make it known you have a gun, the BG may very well pull his gun out first, shoot you and take your gun to use in his next crime. Letting it be known that you might be armed is a gamble you may or may not want to take.

Where I live, it could be called brandishing.
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Old March 15, 2005, 04:05 PM   #13
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I'm of the opinion that I wouldn't want anybody to know I was carrying unless I was actually intending to shoot. If I had to reach for a pistol, then I would shoot, because by the point I reach for it I would have exhausted all other reasonable options, such as trying to talk them down or flee.

Waving a gun around, or even suggesting you have one is not a reasonable option in my book. Sure, some people might be scared off by it, but others would see it as even more reason to attack you. After all, they get a new pistol out of the deal, and in thier mind if you had the sack to shoot them, you wouldn't bother threatening them.
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Old March 15, 2005, 04:09 PM   #14
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Howdy,
IMO the best option is to leave if possible. preferablily in a quick manner. At that point and time if the BG chooses to chase after you I feel that you would well be in your rights to defend yourself with whatever means necessary.
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Old March 15, 2005, 04:36 PM   #15
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Leaving does sound like the best option but you dont want to turn your back on him neccessarily. I was in a similar situation but had my pregnant wife with me so I couldn't just run off to leave her with two thugs!

I could feel him getting ready to suckerpunch me, so backstepped off the curb and took a drawing grip on my concealed pistol without saying a word. It worked. That time.

They could probably have you charged with menacing threats, even if you didn't say anything and just gripped it. We were lucky, God walked with us that day. No easy answers for this one. Moment by moment decision process.
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Old March 15, 2005, 05:31 PM   #16
snacktrack
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See Edward's situation is what I was thinking about, what if you cant retreat? I mean, if you are trying to leave and the guy is getting in your face about to hit you and you are with a child, or a gf/wife? Just going to reach for his weapon squashed the situation. I mean, hey it might not be the right things to do for all cases, but it worked for Edward, and most important nobody got hurt and the situation was descalated.

Just because you are walking away from someone doesnt mean they will leave you alone. I wouldnt want to shoot someone over a punch, but who knows what they could do to you? I dont want any punches thrown, and I dont want to shoot anyone. Its a tough decision.
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Old March 15, 2005, 05:37 PM   #17
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Snacktrack you're right, it is a tough decision. It's a decision that the situation will dictate as it occurs. I think you'll make the right decision out of instict without realizing it.
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Old March 15, 2005, 05:48 PM   #18
Edward429451
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worked for Edward, and most important nobody got hurt and the situation was descalated.
Yea PTL for that. It actually deescalated about 20 or 30 minutes later when I was able to stop shaking from the adreneline. Whew. As close as I've ever been.
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Old March 16, 2005, 11:29 AM   #19
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Unless that gun needs to be used, I would advise that you not even hint that you have it. Some people will call your bluff. What then?
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Old March 18, 2005, 07:32 PM   #20
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I don't mean to change the idea behind this thread, but wouldn't something like a spring loaded baton seem like a good idea in this kind of situation. Its enough to possibly defuse the situation, and certainly can be controlled to be less than lethal.
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Old March 18, 2005, 07:53 PM   #21
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I guess I have always operated under the mantra that we need to sometimes know when to back down, . . . back up, . . . flee, . . . leave, . . . adios. Use whatever name you choose.

Making that choice is in my opinion the greater act of strength, intelligence, honor, . . . and in the long run should provide the greater rewards.

That goes especially when you have made an effort to diffuse the situation by attempting to leave, to extricate yourself from the place of confrontation.

That is plan number one. Plan number two will evolve as the bg reacts to plan number one. Neither plan relies on brandishing or suggesting.

May God bless,
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Old March 18, 2005, 10:28 PM   #22
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Situation dictates reaction......

Here are some ideas to stop or change this BG's mind.......

Fake a heart attack...... I saw it on tv once and it worked.
Act as though your going to barf on him.......if he moves towards you - begin barfing :barf:
Inform BG that your going to be forced to jump over him - through the glass window and run off into the sunset... never to be seen again....
Act smart and make all actions of leaving quickly with your 6 covered....

If all this failed and he is coming at you with his Super Duper Swiss Army knife you might want to break leather and let him know it will be the last time he uses his knife or whatever other weapon he is planning on working you over with.... I think unless he is real dumb -which is likely, he might leave you alone and do one of the first 3 ideas listed at top?

Not saying it's for everyone or anyone.........just an idea
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Old March 19, 2005, 12:47 AM   #23
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Dwight55, Very well stated! There's a reason it's called "concealed carry". If the BG wants my money I'll back off and throw it to him and retreat. If he just takes the cash and thinks I'm a whimp, I don't care. If it continues, then things begin to change.
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Old March 19, 2005, 05:08 PM   #24
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Great points. The only time you can resort to a lethal defense is when you feel your life and well being is threatened. It is up to you to take every step to disarm a stituation prior from it escalating to that situation.

Leaving a situation is the best defense. It is not cowardly at all to avoid such a confrontation. If you have to run, run, but get out of there. Make sure every escape route is exhausted before going into the red.

THis situation is very subjective. If you are alone, you have many more opportunities to you. If you are standing between an agressor and your family, then you may have to stand your ground while they retreat.

If you feel there is a danger of bodily harm or death to your family or yourself, you have the right to act accordingly including brandishing a weapon.

If you ever do brandish a weapon and the situation is defused, immediately call the police to report an incident. Make sure you are the first to call. The best defense in this kind of situation is a good offense.


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Old March 19, 2005, 08:51 PM   #25
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While attending John Farnham's class a number of years ago, at Lake Tahoe, one of the California students related an incident that happened regarding a citizen who had an altercation in a bar, and his adversary pulled a knife on him.
The citizen said, "hey, I have a concealed weapons permit", which ended any assault. The Citizen was still in prison at the time of the class, after being convicted of, I believe, assault or brandishing, or both. The incredible thing is, the Citizen was NOT ARMED at the time. Don't ask me how he could be convicted of a felony and go to prison. Nobody else knew, either, how something like that could happen.
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