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Old May 5, 2005, 01:50 PM   #26
Lone Star
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Someone said that British officers in the days of Empire could take only one long gun for sporting purposes. Can you confirm that?

I believe that they often had both shotguns and rifles. I'm almost sure that a Maj. Powell mentions using several guns, including a .401 Winchester auto in India, and Sir Gerald Burrard and others hunted a lot in northern India and adjacent areas.

I once read a book written in the 1880's by an officer on big game hunting in India and "Thibet", and he mentioned a selection of rifles. No need to shoot deer with the .465 double bought for tiger, elephant, and gaur!

Regulations may have varied with the times.

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Old May 5, 2005, 04:09 PM   #27
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I tend to agree with you, Lone Star. Just about everything I've read indicates that the better off officers in the Royal Whatevers had a complete battery of firearms.

The Paradox and other emulators were more than likely developed for the civilians and officers who couldn't afford a complete battery of firearms.

I also came across some information in the 4th Edition of Cartridges of the World about the Paradox.

I had said they had shallow rifling at the muzzle, apparently they had pretty deep rifling to really grab the slug and spin it.
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Old May 5, 2005, 04:37 PM   #28
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I wonder if there is a rifled screw in choke for remmington shotguns? If it is used for just saboted slugs, then deep rifling might bite into the plastic better over the short distance through the choke.
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Old May 6, 2005, 12:22 AM   #29
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"I wonder if there is a rifled screw in choke for remmington shotguns?"

As a matter of fact, yes, there is.

I don't know why I didn't think of this obvious parallel earlier.
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Old May 6, 2005, 01:57 AM   #30
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Hunting and shooting sports in general were quite popular among British officers in places like Africa, India etc and I do not recall the mention of such a restriction in any of the writings I have read. The one gun restriction may have been something that applied while travelling at H.M.'s expense or perhaps was in effect during a specific period. Once in country, perhaps they aquired others locally or simply ordered them and had them shipped out to them; as in those days one could do such things quite freely.
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Old May 6, 2005, 08:18 AM   #31
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"The one gun restriction may have been something that applied while travelling at H.M.'s expense or perhaps was in effect during a specific period."


One British restriction that did affect a lot of officers and civilians alike in India and the Sudan was the outlawing of rifles in .45 caliber right around 1900. This was done to keep possible components out of the hands of rebels, many who were armed with .577-.450 Martini Henry rifles.

In one fell swoop, something like 25 to 30 cartridges and components became illegal to possess.

That's when you had the sudden introduction of cartridges such as the .465 Westley Richards (I think that one was theirs) and the .470 Nitro.
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Old May 6, 2005, 10:42 AM   #32
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I'm not really much of a shotgun person - but I don't see any other Europeans in this thread, and on the net anyone can be an expert, so:

As has been established, the numbers are the same. If you find a 12, 20 or an old 16, it's the same thing whether it is called gauge, bore or kaliber (correct spelling of caliber), just different words for basically the same thing.

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I think the major problem you'll find is that many Euro guns have chambers for 65mm long shells. Our 2.75" chambers are for 70mm long shells. But some Euro companies also make 70mm chambered guns, especially now that many are sold in the USA, too.
Not really. To my knowledge, 65mm shells are around only to feed old shotguns. I doubt any European shotgun has been made with a 65mm (2.5") chamber in 50 years or more, at least I've never seen one - a new one, I mean. In Norway 65mm ammo is hard, maybe impossible to find. With guns old enough to have a 65mm/2.5" chamber, I would personally make sure it's safe to shoot with smokeless powder, the gun could be old enough to be black powder only.

The vast majority of guns made today seem to have 76mm chambers (3"). 12/89mm (3.5") guns are also available. Current markings are often just 12/70, 12/76, 20/76 or 10/89, you get the pattern. At least in Norway, the .410 is known as ... .410. Other European countries may have a different name for it.
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Old May 6, 2005, 11:23 AM   #33
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Can't speak for all of "abroad" or all of Europe. But in Italy, a land of excellent gunmakers, the 12 gauge is referred to as "calibro 12." So the numerical designation remains the same. I just went to the H&H website and funny thing is "caliber" is still spelled with a C.
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Old May 6, 2005, 11:27 AM   #34
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Quote:
In one fell swoop, something like 25 to 30 cartridges and components became illegal to possess.
Mike,
You made me wonder about the legality of my smuggl...importation of my 12 gauge slu....paperweights to Cyprus. I guess that the slugs are components and may be subject to restricions as well. Maybe I should leave my .45 acp cartridge key ring at home as well to avoid going to jail there (Greek food would be nice even in prison though ).

I am going to have to call the embassy for the info unless someone knows about European Union laws about this? What about you Ultima Thule? Can you save me the laborious task of picking up a phone and making a (local) call to the embassy? Unless of course Norway isn't in the EU, or wasn't when you were there if it is now. And btw, thanks for the conversion numbers. I may have seen "10/89" somewhere before and was confused as hell. I never would have figured out that it was a mix of old measurement and metric measurment in the same designation.
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Old May 6, 2005, 11:35 AM   #35
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"kaliber (correct spelling of caliber)"

No, the proper spelling isn't kaliber, caliber, or calibre, etc.

It's qalib, given that the word originated in Arabia.


Novus,

I'd have to say that I don't think I'd try to take components with me.
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Old May 6, 2005, 12:58 PM   #36
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Mike, I tried to be funny. And you have to be all seriuous, ah never mind.
(Y'all please disregard my kaliber comment above, it was a failed attempt at a joke.)

novus, Norway isn't a member of the EU, although I can still travel in the union without a passport or move there and get a work/residency permit just by saying "I'm here".

To my knowledge there is no EU law on this, each country has its own firearms laws. I would be careful about bringing anything into a country I didn't know. Lead paperweights are probably ok in some countries, but I don't know about Cyprus. Also, regardless of importation - if they don't have slugs there, it's probably because it's illegal to own/use, not because they haven't heard of slugs. Slugs are popular in many European countries, particularly for wild pig hunting.

I think it's better to be safe than sorry. If you were caught with illegal lead paperweights (assuming they are illegal), I think a fine and possible deportation is more probable than prison. That's just a guess though, I wouldn't want to be the one to find out. I don't think your cartridge key ring will put you in jail either, unless it's a live round and you try to take it on board an airliner. It's just not worth it to try to explain to a minimum wage airport ninja (US or Cypriot) about a dummy round, either, imo.

Anecdote: On hearing that suppressors were available over the counter in Norway, someone in a gun store in California once asked my father if Dad or I could bring him one on the next visit, he was curious as to how they were made.
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Old May 6, 2005, 02:26 PM   #37
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I know you were making a joke, Ultima.

I was, too.
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Old May 6, 2005, 02:43 PM   #38
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while I was being an officious stick and missed it...my apologies
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Old May 6, 2005, 04:22 PM   #39
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Mike Irwin: Sense of humour

Romulus: No sense of humour

I'll try to remember that.
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Old May 6, 2005, 05:20 PM   #40
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In the Dutch speaking part of Belgium, we say: kaliber 12. On my permit is says 12 gauge.

What I'm trying to say is, we call it as we like. But we preffer to shoot it
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Old May 6, 2005, 10:00 PM   #41
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Quote:
In the Dutch speaking part of Belgium, we say: kaliber
In Britain, Kaliber is a brand of alcohol-free beer. :barf:
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Old May 7, 2005, 01:25 AM   #42
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As you should know, in Belgium we don't believe in alcohol free things. We are the country of beer
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Old May 7, 2005, 01:35 AM   #43
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Aahhh...Chimay....Belgian, trapist monks make the best

Ultima Thule,
How does your native country treat short barreled shotguns? If silencers are unrestricted, then how about the other stuff that they have a shtfit about here?
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Old May 10, 2005, 07:58 AM   #44
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novus collectus, no short barrels.

There is no system for paying a sin-tax and getting them registered either. Although if you can convince the licencing authority here (the police) that you really need one, I think it is theoretically possible for them to make exceptions to just about any part of the regulations (not just shotguns), wouldn't cost anything either. I just wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to accept an application, note that I said "theoretically possible".

About "them" having ***fits. Depends on what you mean by fits. Accidentally trimming off your shotgun half an inch too much would probably lead to a fine (and possible loss of your other firearms). There is no minimum penalty. Maximum is two years, or four years in "serious" cases (such as smuggling machine guns for profit).
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Old May 11, 2005, 06:55 PM   #45
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Re Paradox guns. They had one barrel with the rifling, one without. Both barrels were the same gauge. You are correct that only a short section near the muzzle was rifled.

As to the one long gun, this was at H M expense. So unless you were independently wealthy you took one gun. Kind of like the Army shipping one car per officer to Germany today.

Now I am going to have to dig out old copies of Double Gun Journal just to footnote my comments.

And the 410 was a British invention dangit
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Old May 13, 2005, 08:48 AM   #46
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I could swear that the Paradox that I saw years ago had both tubes rifled...
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Old May 13, 2005, 09:10 AM   #47
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It probably did. You could have it any way you wanted it in those days. They were hand made guns.

My point was that the 410 probably came about when a rifle caliber was adapted to shoot shotshells. Maybe because some poor British officer was posted to some obscure part of the empire and wanted to hunt game and birds.
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Old May 13, 2005, 10:21 AM   #48
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When you get right down to it, the line between shotgun, rifle, musket, rifled musket, etc., was, for a long time, very blurry. It still can be today, too.
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Old May 15, 2005, 04:04 PM   #49
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Yes. We call ist "Caliber 12". There is 12/67,5; 12/70; and 12/76...
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