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Old April 29, 2005, 11:15 PM   #26
panzer426
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as I said, I would also defend myself, and I would be very upset, infuriated, if my dog were to do this to someone. the problem is that 99% of people Ive met think my german shepherd wants to eat them alive when he is wagging his tail and begging for an ear scratch. and actually baring teeth, snarling, and hair up on top of back is a fear response. dogs show do this to people if they are cornered and afraid of the person. if a dog is charging at you he will look the same as a happy dog begging attention. cats are the only mammal with the ability to move their tails independently while running. dogs cant wag their tail while running, they can hold it straight out (or curled if a malamute, akita, etc) or between their legs. the only main difference you can tell between a angry dog and a happy dog running towards you is the happy dog will most likely be moving slower, possibly wiggling its body and head held low. head held striaght out (whole spine in a straight horizontal line) ears forward, eyes locked on yours is a predatory charge, ie a wolf charging towards a moose.
please dont take this the wrong way, I am not trying to convince anyone to ignore a dog running towards you. as I said, I would defend myself. unless it was rabid or attacking (or had before) a person or child I would not shoot it. I would kick, hit with a stick, etc. but yes it is better to shoot first and deal with the cinsequences. and I absolutely believe that no one should be allowed to own a dog and not have absolute control over it. name a situation for me and I garauntee one of two responses...either "yes, I'd have complete, total control over him in that situation", or "I dont know about THAT one, havnt trained in anything similar and therefore in that situation he would be on leash". so do I hate anyone or have anything against anyone who says they would shoot the dog? nope, not at all but I do have something against the owner and if they try to sue you over that, they should be thrown in jail for allowing the dog (truly dangerous/aggressive or not) to run loose.
the only reason I asked if anyone could tell the difference and detailed, somewhat, the physical and noticable differences between agression and "oh boy am I happy, please pet me" is so hopefully, atleast assuming the dog is charging from a distance and not from 10 feet away, you might have time to look and recognize if its a threat or not. do I expect everyone or anyone to see a dog 60-100 feet away charging for them and say "hmm, maybe I should leave my gun in the holster cause I cant tell for certain"? of course not. but hopefully it will help you, the owners, and the court system. doubtfull but as an animal lover, and a professional dog trainer (obedience, herding, tracking, agility, protection) I have to try. to me a dog running towards you is no different than a person running towards you. you have to think and evaluate wether it is a valid threat. just like with a person in a parking lot, could be in a big hurry to get to their car and run right past you. the dog could be after a rabbit you didnt see, or a ball you missed, or heard its owner calling from around the corner but has better hearing than any person so you didnt hear it. anyway, I'll shut up now.
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Old April 29, 2005, 11:28 PM   #27
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I went on a walk tonight through a neighborhood that is filled with families, but has a lot of dangerous through traffic. I was walking my 4 mo old lab. Out of the corner of my eye I saw an enormous, probably 70 lb, pit bull. He was behind a short chain link. This was ridiculous to have a dog, that was showing his protective instinct by trying to scale, behind such a short fence. It was irresponsible by the owner and darn it, if that dog had gotten out, I would probably be on my way to the ER. The owner should be responsible. If you are going to own a dog that has the intrinsic desire to attack people, then one has to be accountable. Some people state that it is all in the way you train the dog. That being said, I have only know one lab that was a biter and every pit I have known I have had to tip toe around not to get eaten.
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Old April 29, 2005, 11:36 PM   #28
panzer426
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I dont disagree about the owner, all of them, needing to be responsible. their should be atleast as strict laws for pet ownership as for firearms.
I hear that a lot about pit bulls. I swear I have met and trained a lot of them. for the last 6 months I have had a policy where I wont train pits, or canary dogs/presa canrios. not because they have a "intinsic" aggression towards people. that IS totally in the lack of training and socialization. I've never had a pit bull that showed any sort of threat towards me or anyone else. everyone of them Ive seen DOES ignore anyone and everyone, and I am sure they would ignore a shotgun blast to the face (lets assume it wouldnt kill them) in order to fight with a dog. to back that up the us government, hospitals, and insurance agencies all list statistics of dog bite over the last 10-20 years. rottweilers, pit bulls, dobermans and german shepherds are at the very bottom of the top 100 list. know whats at the top? #'s 1-5 are small terriers, poodles, and chihuahuas. number 6? very suprising but its a tie between labs and golden retreivers. knowing that I am still more cautious around my beloved german shepherds, and others than I am around labs and goldens, or even terriers.
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Old April 30, 2005, 01:42 AM   #29
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Quote:
and every pit I have known I have had to tip toe around not to get eaten.
Well, either you live in a really bad community or you've just had really bad luck with Pitbulls. I'd say more than 80% of the Pitbulls I've seen/fostered/worked with would be a great family dog. I would let 50-60% of them go home to a family with small kids. The other 20% were simply trained wrong.

Quote:
if a dog is charging at you he will look the same as a happy dog begging attention
Umm, I think I would be able to tell the difference. But, I could see some trigger happy guy that knows nothing about dogs mistaking a friendly dog for one that is a threat.

And NO, that last line did not have anything to do with you personally, panzer426.

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I'll shut up now.

Last edited by MassHunter2190; April 30, 2005 at 01:49 AM. Reason: spelling
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Old April 30, 2005, 02:19 AM   #30
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A client of mine was torn to pieces by a pitbull.
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The above is a true story. So the question is: You are in your front yard or back yard - enjoying the day (or watering plants if you wish), and your neighbor's door pops open and 3 dogs come charging at you (in a threatening manner - no leashes). Assuming the backstop is clear (no civilians behind the dogs) and you are carrying your regular concealed carry weapon.

Gentlemen your thoughts?
Nothing to think about. First shot into the clear backstop (ie lawn, I've seen it work very well, dogs turn 180° at light speed) if there is the time for it. If they don't beat it then, shoot the dogs.
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Old April 30, 2005, 12:22 PM   #31
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panzer, I don't doubt those statistics as to the number of bites, but I would expect that the most severe bites (and deaths) occur from pits and rotties, etc. The most bites are likely to occur from the most common breeds, after all. Can't remember ever hearing of somebody killed by a lab or golden, though it may have happened.

Anyway, we live way out in the country on 40 acres. We don't have many dog problems because the problem dogs just get shot in short order

I don't automatically shoot dogs, but I don't tolerate dogs that are a threat to people or property.

We keep ours pretty close to home, but they do run loose on our land and on walks with us.
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Old April 30, 2005, 06:34 PM   #32
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Has anyone ever known of a maddog puppy? Usually, mean and aggressive dogs are the product of human neglect or abuse.

Some breeds have developed a reputation for being naturally aggressive. Most German breeds, and others mentioned in this post. My first dog was a German Shepard, who I will never forget. One of the many memories was when I was 12. The day he put a neighbor kid, 4 years older, and 50+Lbs heavier up into the back of a pulp truck, as he threatened to kick the crap out of me. He kept him there for over an hour, until I called him off.

I'm sure everyone on this thread loves their dogs. But if I am confronted with three dogs running at me with intent in their eyes, I'm shooting first, and asking questions later.

On the other hand if panzer426's German Shepard runs up to me wagging his tail, I'd drop down on one knee, and greet him. I would hope we all would know the difference.
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Old April 30, 2005, 06:51 PM   #33
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Bullrock, . . . I about fell out of my chair laughing when I saw your last post. Today, I went to a distant neighbor's house to check on some pups she said she had (half German Shepard, 1/4 black Lab, 1/4 golden Retriever).

She told me these puppies would be the friendliest pups on the planet.

Nobody told momma dog that she was supposed to show the friendly face for all prospective pup parents.

Remember where you wrote: "I would hope we all would know the difference."

Yeah, . . . I know the difference, . . . and for about 2 seconds in the living room there, . . . I had the distinct impression momma had me made for her new chew toy. Wasn't hard to read her intentions, . . .

Anyway, . . . y'all have a great day.

May God bless,
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Old April 30, 2005, 07:22 PM   #34
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I used to play rugby in college until I had to quit due to a soccer injury. One of the guys on the team had a very nice pitbull, and I never saw it show aggression to anyone. Then one day, he brought it to a game. As one of the other players walked by, the dog attacked him out of the blue. The owner got him under control pretty quickly, but not before the other guy was missing a large chunk of his calf. We superglued the wound to stop the bleeding so he could play, but once the game was over he had to go get quite a few stiches at the hospital. Most pitbulls I have been around have been much less aggressive than the smaller dogs I have been around, but they have a much larger capacity for damage when they do attack. I would not hesitate to shoot, seeing what that dog did in one bite.
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Old April 30, 2005, 11:05 PM   #35
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panzer426,

Going out in public with a large unleashed dog is a bit like going out in public with a semi-auto that has the mag out and the slide locked back with a range flag hanging out of it and then pointing it at folks as you walk around.

You and anyone with gun experience will be able to tell that it's not dangerous, but that doesn't mean it's OK. It's still going to scare people, and even the people who know it's really not dangerous may still be uncomfortable with you pointing it at them or others.

Besides, do you know how to tell when people are lying (usually unintentionally) about their pets (or kids)?

They start their sentence with: "My pet/kid would never..."

Animals are very complex, it is not possible to predict their behavior with 100% accuracy, nor is it possible to have 100% control over them.
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Old May 1, 2005, 11:30 AM   #36
panzer426
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with enough patience, time and training it is actually possible to predict their reactions and have 100% control over them. when I take him anywhere without a leash he is always heeling unless we are in a dog park where he is allowed to run off leash. Ive tested him with trained and experienced dog people by having them fire starter pistols right next to us while he is heeling, sitting, laying down on and off leash. I have had them come up and pretend to be attacking me, even throwing me down on the ground and sitting on top of me. he will get defensive, barking, growling but I tell him to lay down and he does it without question or hesitation. I've trained dogs for 13 years. personal dogs trained in obedience, conformation shows, schutzhund, herding, I've trained my dogs and other peoples dogs in those and agility. I've trained dogs for SAR (sorry, SAR stands for search and rescue) groups. I've trained for the military as a civilian consultant, and for police agencies. I've trained everything from german shepherds to rottweilers to golden retrievers and bloodhounds, jack russel terriers, and chihuahuas. I charge anywhere from $50 a day to $500 a day depending on what the owner wants the dog trained for. if any or all of the owner, my assistant, my wife, and/or myself dont think the dog and handler are trained to the point where the dog is 100% obedient and trustworthy in and situation possible, then I start over (some of the advanced training sessions are 30+ days long) and the owner doesnt pay me a cent. in that case I also pay them for any travelling expenses nessecary in bringing the dog to me for the training. to date I have not had to do that for a single dog/handler. if I did have to I could lose up too $30,000 (15k for the first 30 days, could be another 15k for another 30 days) and would be a deserved loss. the hardest part in training a dog, to do anything, is training the owner/handler. and making them fully aware of the potential danger in training them and there dog for certain things. sadly (from a financial stand point) I have to turn down 75-80% of the people who want me to train their dogs for them because they say or do something to make me think they WANT their dog to be dangerous. I dont train dogs to be dangerous, I train the dogs to be obediant in any situation. I dont train dogs to bite people, I train them to know when it is acceptable, and to be 100% obedient if they do mistake a situation for being an acceptable one to bite. to further show how hard I work to weed out the people who dont need a dog, let alone a dog trained in protection...I could make a decent profit training at $100 a day. but if protection is being trained it costs $500 a day. besides the higher price if you are a potential customer there is a 30 day period where you have to talk to me everyday in email and on the phone where I ask a lot of questions and expect you to ask a lot of questions too. and then the first 15 days of training I dont even think about training protection, its obedience and other things if wanted, and feeling out the dogs personality. if you want higher levels of protection, like for competition in schutzhund, or for military law enforcement then it takes more than 30 days. if at any time I decide the dog doesnt have the nerves for it, doesnt have the right personailty, or that you dont have the right desires or personality, I end the training and contact other trainers to alert them about you.
so basically, yes if you know what you are doing and know how to train the dog it absolutely is possible to train and trust a dog 100% in any situation.
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Old May 1, 2005, 11:36 AM   #37
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Shoot the dogs, then apologize. Otherwise your neighbor will be apologizing to your family.
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Old May 1, 2005, 01:36 PM   #38
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Hey Dwight,

Momma must have been the 1/2 German Shepard part. Perhaps she knew you were packing, and was trying to protect her pups. NOT! Oh, that's OK, she won't hurt you...How many times have you heard that from dog owners just before beloved pet springs for your throat.

I'm glad you got away unharmed. Your distant neighbor should have known, and warned you that momma wasn't nice...Too many of us have our head in the sand regarding our pets.

Personally, I'm owned by a West Highland Terrier.
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Old May 1, 2005, 07:48 PM   #39
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Today I thought I was gonna have to shoot a dog. Unfortunately, I was on my way home from work where I cant carry. I live in the "hood," and was almost home when this dog ran out in front of me, barking and growling. It kept in front of me, I could only go a couple miles of an hour. The people on the side of the road obviously didn't own it, as they were telling me to run it over. It was some form of pit bull mix, and was very menacing. If it had followed me all of the way home, and I had had my gun, it would be a very dead dog.
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Old May 1, 2005, 08:33 PM   #40
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so basically, yes if you know what you are doing and know how to train the dog it absolutely is possible to train and trust a dog 100% in any situation
Not "100% in any situation"--there is no possible way that can be true. Assuming everything else you say is true, it sounds like it would be accurate for you to say "nearly 100% of the time in the vast majority of situations." "100% in any situation" is a very hard specification to live up to in any field of endeavor and nothing/no one has managed it yet to my knowledge.

However, letting that stand for the moment, how many people in the U.S. are there who you would say qualify under your definition of "if you know what you are doing and know how to train the dog"?
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Old May 1, 2005, 10:40 PM   #41
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ok, I should have worded that differently. I should have said 100% reliable in any conceavable day to day situation. if the earth opened up and satan stepped out I have no idea how my dog, or any dogs I've trained would react. if a 777 airliner or hercules jumbo prop plane collided with the house I dont know. and granted, the majority of the people who I train for just want obedience, they dont care if the dog will be obedient in a war/battle situation. however, if the situation is possible, any dog can be trained to be obedient in it. its just a matter of simulating it while training. so yes, I should have said my dog is garaunteed to be 100% obedient in any conceivable situation, but it IS possible to train a dog to be 100% reliable in other situations. I cant simulate a UFO beeming me up in order to train a dog to obey commands in that situation. so I'll give you that one.
as to your second question, I could list names (if I had the time and their permission) of atleast 1,000 owners in the US, and another 5-10,000 in europe who could claim 100% reliability of their dogs. and I can also promise their are another roughly 50,000 handlers among the US law enforcement agencies and military who can claim the same. I wish everyone in the US had to meet the standards for dog ownership that europeans are held too, and higher, but sadly you are correct, the vast majority of people in this world cannot make such a claim. which I guess was why I originally said that I dont blame anyone on here for honestly saying they would shoot first and deal with the consequences later. and the reason I posted about canine behaviour is so that everyone who reads it might save themselves a little trouble, and said that we should all be as responsible in this situation as with a person running towards you. what if you shoot the person and then realize he/she was running to their car, running past you, because their wife just called and said she was going into labor/husband called and said he was cleaning his shotgun and blew his foot off. you might see a dog seemingly running right for you, shoot it, then little Timmy comes around the corner behind you and you find out the dog was running past you because he just heard the kibble spill into his food dish.
I wasnt trying to start a fight, and dont want to be a part of one. I was merely informing everyone about canine behaviour and hoping that with the info I posted you might notice one of the things I mentioned and realize the dog is not charging with malicious intent, or atleast hesitate to be certain. draw your weapon, and be ready, but be certain.
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Old May 1, 2005, 11:16 PM   #42
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I didn't see your replies as argumentative, and I appreciate the information. I'm still of the opinion that you are a bit optimistic about the reliability of trained animals, but I agree that an animal trained by an expert is a far cry from what one would expect from a typical "pet".
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Old May 2, 2005, 01:06 AM   #43
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I still say and believe that a dogs intent is pretty easy to read. What's inside their little heads will be evident in the look on their faces, the way they carry their bodies, their behavior, etc. A dog is transparent for the most part. Perhaps a dog trained to attack a person on command would be different. Behaving more in an emotionally detatched mode, and would be therefore far more difficult to read. But, a dog like that would be an exception and not the rule. In that case, you would have twice the trouble, not only the dog, but perhaps a dangerous human being to deal with. Assuming he's sent his dog to attack you to no good end. In that case you might have to shoot the poor dog because his owner/handler is a criminal jerk and then shoot the owner for brandishing a dangerous weapon.
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Old May 2, 2005, 03:21 AM   #44
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I think it's safe to say my only warning shot would be the one that misses.
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Old May 2, 2005, 08:16 AM   #45
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My neighbors have 6 dogs that will bark, run, and greet anyone that comes down their long driveway on 60+ acres. Last year they were pepper sprayed by a local policeman that got out of his car and walked up to their door (wrong address and he no longer works in the area).
I did not see this, but I did see the same dogs run up and greet a 7 year old little girl who's daddy working at the barn didn't notice she had wandered off to play. The dogs ran to say their hellos and got petted by her as she came up to the house.
Some dogs will go nuts when they see someone in a uniform. When we were kids, the family poodle acted like he wanted to kill my older brother when he came home on leave. Once he changed out of his uniform the dog was back to being a foo foo.
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Old May 3, 2005, 04:24 AM   #46
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Bang! .. Bang! ... Bang-bang!
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Old May 3, 2005, 01:59 PM   #47
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After reading all of this, I have come to a final conclusion: I'm glad I have a cat. I don't need to worry about it ripping my neighbor to shreads, and the only death I'll have to deal with is when it dies, or when it brings those damned field mice to my door. Of course, I used to have a pretty well trained German Shepard. Thing was protective as hell, wouldn't even let my granparents come near me unless I or my parents called it off. She was one of two dogs I owned. The other was a ****zu. It was scared of my cat, and looked like a drowned rat when wet. Personally, I think you can tell when a dog is charging at you if it wants to play or if it wants to make you dinner, and my judgement call would be to put a round into it.
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Old May 3, 2005, 03:02 PM   #48
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MallNinja1796

Quote:
After reading all of this, I have come to a final conclusion: I'm glad I have a cat. I don't need to worry about it ripping my neighbor to shreads, and the only death I'll have to deal with is when it dies, or when it brings those damned field mice to my door. Of course,
How bout starting a rampaging Kitty Kat thread?
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Old May 3, 2005, 03:34 PM   #49
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Quote:
After reading all of this, I have come to a final conclusion: I'm glad I have a cat. I don't need to worry about it ripping my neighbor to shreads, and the only death I'll have to deal with is when it dies, or when it brings those damned field mice to my door.
If you lived in Wisconsin, and they passed the 'open season" for feral cats you'd have more to worry about!
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Old May 3, 2005, 04:04 PM   #50
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I have three cats. The Maine Coon would probably run in fear from an attacker (he's big and powerful when he jumps on you, problem is he'll only jump on ya to be petted!). The Russian Blue/who knows what mix would probably hiss at you and then run, and the little alley cat would probably want to cuddle! As for them charging, if you're so scared of cute little kitties that you'd put a round into them, than tisk tisk, and you PROBABLY shouldn't be carrying ANY type of weapon.

Now, as for the ferrel cat laws, mine are all indoors cats, and stick close to the house whenever they make the great escape. We had one get loose for a week (scared of cars so she'd run every time anyone would pull into the condo parking lot), so I wouldn't be too worried about THAT one. And as far as home protection goes, my little alley cat is so damn cute that a bad guy would probably get caught up in cuddle time, then BAM!!!

Seriously, anyone who lives in a neighborhood where they even remotely know their neighbors PROBABLY knows their dogs as well. I know that I could tell whether my neighbors' dogs had snapped and wanted dinner, or if they're being their normal selves and craving attention and the innevitable bit of food which I'll give them if I'm coming in from a food run...

And if you're in a strange neighborhood, or somehow your neighbor gets ****** and orders their dog to attack, then yes, defend yourself. I'm fortunate enough to live in a small town where I pretty much know everyone's habits, even if I don't know them personally. However, I realize that not everyone is so FORTUNATE as I am to be in a tiny little nowhere town where the people in the stores and such know their names. So yes, err on the side of caution if you're really not sure, then watch Animal Planet for some closure.
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