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Old April 28, 2005, 12:03 PM   #26
yekimak
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The laws are constantly being tested, up here there is a pastor who was just cleared on 2nd degree murder charges for offing a couple guys who were burgling his church/home. Big uproar, espcially because one of them was apparently shot several times, with some wounds obviously attained while he was in retreat.

Anyhow the pastor was aquitted of criminal charges, but it is going to be headed to the civil court, where his chances won't be as good. No one seems to care that the guys he shot were responsible for a huge series of break-ins in the Mat-su valley (large enough that the break-ins were newsworthy before the shooting incident).

The law needs to be clearer in most places, in my CCW class, it was explained to me that a person can infact walk into your house, and if he is not being a direct threat to you, say he shoots you dog, ie. angry neighbor, you can't shoot him. It is also a bit foggy, as it only has to appear that there is a threat, i.e. if that drunk had tried to break in so he could crash on the floor, but you didn't know that. There was a drunk teen 10 years or so back that broke into the wrong house to sleep a party it off. He got kilt, but it was ruled justified.

Personally, I believe that if a person enters another's property intending ill will, he has forfeited his life. But if it ever happens that you have to defend yourself, make sure all the "i"'s are dotted, and "t"'s are crossed, because that person you shot is going to become an instant martyr.
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Old April 28, 2005, 05:13 PM   #27
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Quote:
espcially because one of them was apparently shot several times, with some wounds obviously attained while he was in retreat.
I think the pastor was fortunate, especially if the BG's were unarmed.

Quote:
To me that a person can infact walk into your house, and if he is not being a direct threat to you, say he shoots you dog
If he shoots my dog, then he has come in armed, and presents a serious danger to anyone in my house. If he ignores me, he won't get a chance to shoot my pup.
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Old April 28, 2005, 08:21 PM   #28
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That's one of the things that I will be going on the defensive of and not the passive side, the "the crook was unarmed and didn't threaten you so you can't shoot them while they are robbing you blind". Some states actually has such insane laws such as this, I go with the Bible on this one.

In most states, they have the castle docterine(sp) where if someone comes into your home uninvited then they are fair game. Now, being the the yard you don't have this option of shoot first and ask later.

When I fire my rifles/pistols outside I have to go through the fence and check the area. Some of the neighborhood kids go "exploring" and the little creek behind the house is like a magnet to them. So I go down to ensure that no one is there (backstop should stop the rounds but I'm not taking any chances).

And when the kids go exploring sometimes they come up into the back yard to pick some green apples to feed to the horses in the field. I know that they aren't up to ill intent and I'm actually happy that they are taking the apples (I don't have to rake them up later).

Now, if I see any of my neighbors across the street in my back yard, I will open carry out and tell them to get the heck off my land. If they refuse then I will hold them for criminal trespass while calling the LEO's (cell phone). If they move toward me I will fire. Why? Not because I wish to but they are thieves and they are druggies (they are always high on something) and I will not give them the benefit of the doubt.

All of this is a case by case basis. You size up the situation and then act on what you see. If you feel that armed conflict is needed (guy/gal has an axe, gun, chainsaw and he/she's eyeing you like you're his/her next meal) then do it, if you think that a stearn "get out of my yard" is warrented then do that, if it's a "boy, I hope they pick up more apples then that for the horses" deal then just go back to the la-z-boy .

Wayne
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Old April 28, 2005, 08:26 PM   #29
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never mind....
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Old April 28, 2005, 11:13 PM   #30
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"You were going to shoot a crazy bum outside your house who you had no reason to believe was armed??"
No that's YOUR idea! I was close to shooting a tresspasser(property posted and fenced) that exhibited bizarre behavior and who advanced on me( an senior citizen) while I repeatedly retreated and loudly objected to his assault on me ( not battery but the definition of assault) , ignored my -plain and resonable commands and put me in fear of my life.
What in the blue blazes weapon could have this guy had? Shaking hands wth someone who doesn't want to is the oldest sucker trick in the book . You, sir are the kind of trusting simpleton that makes a good statistic! :barf:
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Old April 29, 2005, 07:13 AM   #31
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Trespassing...
Seems that the general firearm owning public believes that shooting someone who is trespassing is a justified act.

Is this true? If someone is on your land, trespassing, but does not brandish a gun, are you justified in your actions?

Any legalities in firing "warning" shots?

Quote:
This is what happens when the original poster is not specific enough in his original comments...

I wasn't talking about someone who has simply wondered onto your property, but those that are committing an "act", such as stealing...
Jelly, you were plenty specific in your original comments. You just asked the wrong question. Your clarification to be more specific about trespassing to say the person was doing something else like stealing does not make sense. These are two completely different legal concepts. So this thread is apparently NOT about trespassing?

Your clarification reminds me of a confrontation I saw on a live talk show between the mother of a dead 12 year old boy and the man who shot the boy. There were a couple of relatives with the upset mother and the wife and two kids of the husband. At the time of the broadcast, the man had been cleared of any wrongdoing and apparently the mother's attempts at a civil suit had failed.

The upset mother noted how the man had shot and killed her unarmed baby and that his use of lethal force was completely unjustified. She kept saying that death was not the penalty for trespassing. Of course, she was right in this regard, but the man did not shoot her son for trespassing. She never seemed to be able to grasp this notion.

As it turned out, the dead son was with several other kids who broke into the man's house as a part of a gang initiation. The man heard the noise of the invasion, grabbed his pistol, and confronted a group of boys in his hallway that connected the bedroom area to the rest of the house. The man yelled at the boys several times while pointing his gun at them. Specifically, he yelled at them to stay back, but the boys continued to approach and he opened fire.

Even by the end of the show, the mother of the dead boy kept saying the penalty for trespassing was not death. Also by the end of the show, the man kept saying that at the time, all he knew is that there were many people in his home that did not belong there and who aggressively advanced on his position after being warned several times. He said that he had to shoot because he was not only in fear for his life, but in fear for the lives of his family. When he fired, he was between the intruders and his family.

Was the boy trespassing? As in Jelly's clarification, the answer is YES. But also as in Jelly's clarification, the trespasing was simply a minor component of a situation where other and more serious things were occurring.
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Old April 29, 2005, 10:39 AM   #32
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"Right then the guy begins retreating and suddenly his reddened crazed eyes focus on that big .44 muzzle with the cylinder that was beginning it's rotation as he kept coming! He starts saying with his hand out" I was at the party last night Bro, I just wanted to thank you"


"Now, if I see any of my neighbors across the street in my back yard, I will open carry out and tell them to get the heck off my land. If they refuse then I will hold them for criminal trespass while calling the LEO's (cell phone). If they move toward me I will fire."



"I was close to shooting a tresspasser(property posted and fenced) that exhibited bizarre behavior and who advanced on me( an senior citizen) while I repeatedly retreated and loudly objected to his assault on me ( not battery but the definition of assault) , ignored my -plain and resonable commands and put me in fear of my life. "



"I pointed a revolver at a drunk who was in my backyard (I also have a 6-foot fence and locked gate) several years ago.


"He was in my yard taking a whizz, and when I opened the sliding glass door and told him to stop ******* on my azaleas, he turned and charged at me. He stopped dead in his tracks, and then turned and scrambled back over the fence."


No, not all gun owners think it is exceptable to shoot people trespassing on their property when they cannot articulate an immediate threat to their life, but obviously some do. At first I thought this was a crazy topic, but I guess not.
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Old April 29, 2005, 10:59 AM   #33
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eka,

Some may brandish a weapon a bit quicker than I would.

Several do think it's prudent to be ready to shoot someone, if it comes to that.

Your examples belie your conclusion. Not one shot the trespasser.
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Old April 29, 2005, 11:07 AM   #34
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Some of you guys badly need to get some professional training.
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Old April 29, 2005, 11:43 AM   #35
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Jelly . . .

Quote:
"Seems that the general firearm owning public believes that shooting someone who is trespassing is a justified act."
1) I do not agree.

2) I would like you to document your assertion (numbers, data, sources) beyond "visceral feel".

I suspect most firearms owners would NOT concur and I respectfully suggest this is precisely the type of comment that influential "antis" would like to use in the media or political arenas.
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Old April 29, 2005, 12:50 PM   #36
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Hey eka,

Before you condemn me for my response, maybe you should come on over to my house and meet the neighbors across the street. Please don't judge a response until you have the full picture. So, just for you:

Donald Cobb: Served a total of about 20 years in prison. What did this "model citizen" do? 3 counts ARMED theft, 2 counts FELONY assault, 2 counts possession with the intent to distribute. After all the felonies we just have the little stuff like assault, terrorist threats (including myself) and drug possesion.

Now we have his darling girlfriend:

Katie: 5 years in prison: Felon in possesion of a firearm while making terrorist threats. Her felony stemed from boucing checks and assault. She got parole for that.

Multitude of doped up druggy homeless, with rap sheets (I've seen the LEO's come over and arrest one or two every week and now they are in about the fourth or fifth cycle with only 2 or 3 still in jail).

Now, with this little tidebit of knowledge, do you still feel that I was wrong in what I wrote? I did at least give them the benefit to leave the property and would only fire if they moved toward me. You see, with a man who has a history of violent assault, and the girlfriend with a history of assault, I felt that my response was justified.

Wayne

*edited to add that all information was obtained from the OSP under the FOIA.

Last edited by USP45usp; April 29, 2005 at 12:52 PM. Reason: to add
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Old April 29, 2005, 01:17 PM   #37
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What's crazy about this topic is how some people feel more reserved when it comes to brandishing their firearm (let alone USING it)...and how others feel they'll show it at the slightest hint of trouble.

Sometimes dealing with a trespasser verbally will do the trick, even it it takes some name-calling or other similar argumentative BS. Eventually they'll leave, your blood pressure will be boiling but all turns to normal soon after.

Other situations (given USP45usp's scenerio), I'm sure I would with out a doubt open carry out of my door if neighbors (with a track record as he describes) are in my yard or otherwise trespassing on my property. There's probably little point in trying to reason with a crowd like that (although I'd try at least on one occasion, other subsequent occasions would constitute my weapon in my hand.

One thing to at least consider, is when we wait for our life to be in eminant danger of serious bodily harm or death - it's probably too late in a lot of cases... What's the definition of this anyway? When someone is walking towards you (in your yard) and you "feel threatened"?

There's gotta be more to it than that. I would at least retreat into my home locking all doors and windows... calling the police obviously.

If he breached my windows/doors he would be dead.
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Old April 29, 2005, 02:07 PM   #38
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Depends on the state doesnt it?

My scenario for dealing with trespassers when I am home alone(done it twice):

We had some odd folks come down our driveway, and park in our field and start unloading camping gear! Serriously! This was during the Motocross Nationals in the park that is maybe 1/4 of a mile from our place. People disrepsect property owners since they don't want to pay for camping within the park(they also thrash the area and leave a big mess), so they camp wherever they damn well please. I had to deal with this TWICE myself, since my folks were at work.

First time was easy enough, it was the road side of our property(we have a county road boarding the far side of our property, and I noticed them when I was being dropped off at home by a friend. So, I simply went for a walk in the woods and came to the road(and the trespassers). I talked with them for a bit, and I told them that this was private property and they did not have permission to camp here. They seemed cool enough with it, and left without a problem, though, I see their vehicle later on about 3/4 of a mile up the road, camping under a powerline

Second time was a bit more interesting(as it freaked me out a lot more). Same deal almost, MXer deadbeats that lack respect, just a darker looking bunch(like 5 people compared to just 2). These guys had the balls to come down our driveway, and PARK in our field and start unloading gear. I think part of it was that their were no cars parked at our place. Anyways, I added up the odds(5 rather creepy looking guys), and decided the best course of action was simple, polite, and armed. Grabbed my shotgun, and I carried it in an unthreatening matter(under my left arm) and went out to investigate. They got pretty pissy when I asked them to leave(I did so as polite as possible), but they did comply(I guess now that I look back, I didn't even need to be armed, but yeah, never take chances) after much cursing. They left a nasty skid mark in the field to...

Recently(last 2-3 years), the nieghbors have pretty much agreed that we just keep whatch during MX Nationals, and during the worst of it(Sunday night), we do walk throughs on the driveways. I feel bad for the poor souls that live on the Washougal River Road :barf:
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Old April 29, 2005, 02:31 PM   #39
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I think the original poster thinks the general pubic thinks that way because of the "Tresspassers will be shot" signs that have been around so long. ?? And the more facecitious 'survivors will be shot again' signs of late.

A lot of it depends on the trespassers behavior I think. Are they exhibiting violent behavior? Even if not directed at you personally. Is it reasonable to assume that if allowed to stay unconfronted, that they will continue to be violent and perhaps even direct it towards you & yours? If so then it would could be a wise decision to confront them while armed. I wouldn't just come out blasting, but I'd be careful and 911 and all that.

And that bit about what if they barge in and not threaten you directly, but shoot your dog? They've exhibited violent behavior, its reasonable to assume that they would continue such violence if allowed, so bang bang. Means , oppurtunity and demeanor fulfilled.
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Old April 29, 2005, 03:55 PM   #40
Trip20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edward429451
And that bit about what if they barge in and not threaten you directly, but shoot your dog? They've exhibited violent behavior, its reasonable to assume that they would continue such violence if allowed, so bang bang. Means , oppurtunity and demeanor fulfilled
My dog is my family. Shoot my dog, you'll die.

There's nothing wrong with thinking this way

C'mon look at him he's adorable!


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Old April 29, 2005, 04:19 PM   #41
eka
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"Now, with this little tidebit of knowledge, do you still feel that I was wrong in what I wrote? I did at least give them the benefit to leave the property and would only fire if they moved toward me. You see, with a man who has a history of violent assault, and the girlfriend with a history of assault, I felt that my response was justified."

No, Wayne I must respectfully disagree with you and even more so given the latest facts. Why would you feel the need to go out alone and possibly outnumbered and expose yourself to a possible deadly encounter. I would call the police and wait patiently in the safety of my house for them to respond and remove these characters from my property. I would charge them with trespassing and add to their criminal record. That would make their probation officer happy as well. This is not the old west. Your tax money partly goes for funding a law enforcement agency to take care of these things so you don't have to. Put the liability on them and let them take care of these situations for you. Now don't get me wrong. I am in favor of firearm ownership, self defense, and the sanctity and security of ones home and property. I believe if someone comes onto your property armed looking for you it is time to act to protect yourself. If someone breaks into your home while you are inside, it is time to act to protect yourself. But, if you look out the window and see a drunk, bum, or any undesirable person hanging out on your property. Call the police if it is going to require anything more than a friendly reminder to move along. I just don't agree with pulling a gun on someone who is not armed just for being in my yard or on my property. Now, am I going to check things out unarmed? No. And Wayne, if I had neighbors like yours I would watch them with both eyes and be armed always. But I would try to avoid putting myself in a bad position if at all possible.

"One thing to at least consider, is when we wait for our life to be in eminant danger of serious bodily harm or death - it's probably too late in a lot of cases... What's the definition of this anyway? "

Well that unfortunately is the way it is when you are in a defensive mode like the good guys almost always are. The guy in the offensive mode knows what he is going to do, may have planned it and rehearsed it. You have to be able to recognize and anticipate dangerous behavior before it is too late. No doubt you are behind the reactionary curve, but that is just the way it is for the good guys.

Firearms have their place and that is usually very near my hand, but the smart call is always to avoid a problem and call the cops if you can. I know I will hear a few of the old, I called the cops and they didn't do anything or they just came and hassled me or whatever. Call them and if you are not satisfied with the service you got, call a supervisor and give them some feedback. Otherwise, I see some of you guys making a bunch of trouble for yourselves needlessly.
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Old April 29, 2005, 04:51 PM   #42
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No that's YOUR idea! I was close to shooting a tresspasser(property posted and fenced) that exhibited bizarre behavior and who advanced on me( an senior citizen) while I repeatedly retreated and loudly objected to his assault on me ( not battery but the definition of assault) , ignored my -plain and resonable commands and put me in fear of my life.
What in the blue blazes weapon could have this guy had? Shaking hands wth someone who doesn't want to is the oldest sucker trick in the book . You, sir are the kind of trusting simpleton that makes a good statistic!
You made the decision to shoot a guy who you had no reason to believe was armed, for tresspassing. You were already pulling the trigger before the guy was even in your house, garage or "gun room". You made no attempt to retreat into your house, garage or gun room, and if I'm thinking of the right post, you had "back-up" there, and a big dog who bites strangers. As a matter of fact, you came out of your "gun room with the humongous gun safe" to confront the guy. The guy was approaching you, in your words, as if to shake hands and thank you for a party he though he was at. You thought the guy was "still drunk" and you felt "safe and in control" and were so afraid for your life that YOU had to restrain your combat experienced buddy from "getting in the guy's face". I really don't care what you do, but like I said, I'll buy a ticket to your fundraiser.....If those were the facts presented at a trial, the best you could hope from me was a hung jury, if not a trip right to prison or at least probation for manslaughter if I was on the jury. How did you "repeatedly retreat". I don't think I read anything in your "testimony" about repeatedly retreating.

I guess I'm just a "trusting simpleton" but somehow I've managed MANY similar shoot/don't shoot situtations without having to shoot an unarmed crazy person, getting hurt myself, or winding up in prison.

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Old April 29, 2005, 05:09 PM   #43
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gordo b

I read your post. I can't figure out who you are referring to.
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Old April 29, 2005, 10:23 PM   #44
Jack Malloy
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Once I went "trespassing" (on public land) in somebody's marijuana patch.
The individual took it upon himself to shoot at me.
I took it upon myself to return the greeting in what I felt to be the appropriate manner.
He went to jail.
I didn't.

It's all in how the law looks at it.

Needless to say, I dont go into the woods anymore without a knife for the reptiles and a gun for the two legged variety of reptiles.
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Old April 29, 2005, 11:14 PM   #45
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Jack Malloy,

What part of the country are you from, if you don't mind me asking? That's a scary possibility. I go hiking whenever I can, but usually leave the old ruger at home because my home state of California isn't terribly gun friendly.

I wonder if there's a good way to figure out where drug operations are likely to be out in the woods, and avoid them? Any law enforcement TFL members know about this problem?
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Old April 30, 2005, 12:16 AM   #46
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eka,

You're right, I guess that you've lived here before, knowing that Lane County covers about 500 miles, with about 6 or so deputies.

You see eka, we are of different "stock". I'm guessing you're city, while I am country. I can't afford to have everything stolen or broken that I have in the back to wait an hour or more for someone to show up to "save the day". If you can, more power to you. I can't.

Sure, I could "go and hide" but why should I? You see, in the country you don't have all those good things like LEO's showing up within 10 to 20 minutes, not to mention that if they are in my yard, it's not to ask for a cup of sugar, they are out with ill intent.

You see eka, maybe before you get into thinking that everyplace is the same as where you are and everyone should do as you would, you sit back and rethink the fact that not everyone has the same options as you.

You see eka, if any of those people are in my yard I know that they are here for doing me harm. They've already told me that they would do so if they got the chance (I guess they get ****** off when I call the LEO's on them) and in this state, in which we are still fighting for our Rights, we have NO duty to retreat. You know, we have the Right to actually protect our selves as well as our property. And I believe in that.

Now, getting back to the original post, if someone that I didn't know was in my yard, I have no desire to "blast away" at them. In fact, I will be the one coming out to offer help if needed and to inquire why they are in the yard. If I get the response that most people would give, I will be willing to help them out any way I can, I've already proven that. If they are here for ill intent, there is no way that I can make it to my door and close it before they are on me and I don't think that yanking out my cell and start to dial 911 is going to scare them off.

So, with trespassers, I go out armed with both gun and cell. If they need help they are more then welcome to my phone, if not, I am not willing to try to snivel back into my abode and await help that maybe minutes, or hours away.

Wayne
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Old April 30, 2005, 08:05 AM   #47
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never mind......wrong post...............
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Old April 30, 2005, 09:31 AM   #48
eka
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Wayne,

I understand where you are coming from. I have lived in both city and country. I know the response time in some counties. The original post was pretty broad, "If someone is on your land, trespassing, but does not brandish a gun, are you justified in your actions?". What you have Wayne, is not just a simple trespass, but a clear and identifiable threat. A sort of feud between a law abiding neighbor and thug neighbors. From what I gather they are mad at you because you refuse to lay down and put up with their criminal behavior. They have threatened to do you harm. Your situation is much different than a lot of other situations where a bum, drunk, teenager, or magazine salesman comes onto your property. You know what you are dealing with the moment you lay eyes on those people. However, in most of the other scenarios in which you find someone on your property who you don't know and have to figure out what the appropriate response should be. You know what you are dealing with in regards to your neighbors, but these other situations are some times obvious risks, unknown risks or maybe no risk.
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Old April 30, 2005, 10:21 AM   #49
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That happened years ago when I lived in Lexington Kentucky.
My friends and I used to go out to the woods to target shoot in an area ironically where most local LE went to shoot too. Sometimes we would all shoot together and I once one a steak dinner when I qualified on the then Police Course with a .44 magnum using full loads, and had time to spare. Them was the golden years, LOL...
Turns out, somebody new to the area decided it would make a great place to plant MJ. He didn't know that local shooters called the place Hogans Alley.
When I made it to a phone and called the police within minutes the area was crawling with officers, some of whom knew me and had gone shooting with me. In no time at all a scraggly marijuana farmer with a .22 was hauled off to the jug. He had no idea that every major target shooter in three counties used that stretch of public land to go plinking.
This is still a concern to have, albiet not as much as it used to be.
Back in 99, the town I was living in had a standoff with police after two MJ growers stumbled into each others secret gardens and ripped each other off and got to shooting over it.
But back in the 80s, some MJ farmers were bad about rigging up booby traps in their fields. One of my friends has an old sawed off shotgun we came upon one time that had been rigged up as a booby trap. It rusted so bad that the gun did not go off when we took it out of the trip wires and tried to fire it.
Bout the same time in a different part of the state a small girl was hurt bad by one of these booby traps and the pot farmer wound up serving a large stretch for that. Prior to that lots of older folks in rural areas would set traps in their houses to catch burglars but the word got out that was a no no.
I live in a different state now, but in all honesty in Appalachia, be it KY, WV, Tennessee or parts of Ohio, I would not go into the woods unarmed because of the possibility of stumbling onto a pot farmers operation. These guys are closer to the Reservoir Dogs than Cheech and Chong fellas.

>>>What part of the country are you from, if you don't mind me asking? That's a scary possibility. I go hiking whenever I can, but usually leave the old ruger at home because my home state of California isn't terribly gun friendly.

I wonder if there's a good way to figure out where drug operations are likely to be out in the woods, and avoid them? <<<
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Old April 30, 2005, 04:18 PM   #50
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"Seems that the general firearm owning public believes that shooting someone who is trespassing is a justified act."

Where did you get that? Did you believe that silly old joke about the sign that said,"Trespassers will be shot; survivors will be shot again."
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