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Old September 15, 2005, 07:19 AM   #51
Jack Malloy
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If you carry an auto the main reason to carry a spare magazine has nothing to do with firepower.
It has everything to do with the fact that 90 percent of auto malfunctions are magazine related.
The typical firefight is over with three rounds fired at about ten feet. I carry a spare mag in case I have a feedway hangup and the feed lips on my primary mag get bent.
In regards to what a jury thinks, the only jury case I ever sat through where the number of shots fired came up was in a murder trial in a domestic violence case.
The husband shot the wife six times with a Ruger .357 magnum, reloaded and shot her again.
All of this was in front of their kids.
Had he shot her three times or five times, it would not have made much difference to the jury.
In my opinion the only group of people out there who don't understand anything at all about terminal ballistics are "professional" journalists, whose only ideas of anything law enforcement related tends to be based on old tv shows.
They blindly buy into the fantasy that if you shoot somebody one time with a .22 or a 9mm the person will fly backwards and die like they do in movies. The also seem to overlook the same movies where the good guy gets shot a few times and seems oblivious to the injury.....
These same folks get angry at police when they get robbed and nobody starts dusting for fingerprints as they don't realize fingerprints are useless unless you alllready have a suspect.
(Unless you have been inthe military, the police, security work or jail, chances are your fingerprints are not on file).
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Old September 15, 2005, 08:26 AM   #52
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Somekid,
I carry my weapon at the 2:00 position (towards the front from my right hip, kind of right over my right front pocket of my jeans). That seems to be the most comfortable and quickest draw for me. I'm right handed, so I'd grab my gun w/ my right hand, use that thumb to hit the mag release, then use my left hand to get the spare mag. I wouldn't be switching hands at all, so no time lost. Your point is a good one, it just doesn't apply to me. Others might benefit from it though. If I did position my holster on my back somewhere, then I could see where having the spare in a different place would be necessary.

Everyone,
And before someone says something about "the holster should be towards your back, in case the BG is right up on you in the front, it would make it difficult to draw your weapon...." I thought about that scenario. My thought was: Then again, the BG could attack me from behind, therefore having more direct access to my weapon (then I would be more vulnerable, not seeing him in the first place). I figure, more than likely (no data to support this thought though), I'd be facing the threat and backing away, so I'd prefer my gun to be up front where I can reach it better (and the BG be able to SEE it, hopefully changing his mind).

Either way, wherever the holster and spare are, I see a problem. The task of loading a spare mag into the gun is a two-handed operation, isn't it? What happens if the BG has your other hand locked in some sort of struggle, like say you're keeping him from choking you with your weak hand while your strong hand is grabbing your gun? You empty a mag into him, but he's doped up on something, and still attacking? How do you get that other mag, and load it into your gun, all one-handed? Any thoughts on this anyone?
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Old September 15, 2005, 09:06 AM   #53
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Dave.

If that is comfortable for you, carry away. I have a holster for my P97 which I generally sit at 12. Took my safety class with it, got a couple of odd looks. Even the instructor asked if'n it was comfortable. I thought it was. (It is OWB, and if you wanna see it, go look for the Carjacker Crossdraw from Andrews Custom Leather.)

Your scenario...

IMO, at that point your gun is better as a club than as a gun. That is a scenario for a good knife.
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Old September 15, 2005, 10:57 AM   #54
leadcounsel
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Although I've chosen not to carry a spare for the above reasons, when I was deciding I came across some good products.

Since my goal was to conceal the magazine and not carry it on the WB, I saw products that carry on the wrist or ankle, in a nylon style pouch with velcro flap, with velcro straps. I thought it would work well on the ankle, but even better on the shooting hand under a long sleeve shirt. In a pinch you could just pull up the shirt sleeve and have access to the magazine.
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Old September 15, 2005, 11:15 AM   #55
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I usually just stick a spare in my left front pocket. Considering I have my pistol, multi-tool AND cell phone on my belt, I feel like friggin' Batman when I add a mag to it (I know I've got a grappling hook in here somewhere...)

And in the extremely unlikely event that I have to use my gun & end up in court, I'll deal with it. Better to have a spare mag & not need it than to need it & end up dead because of being so "forward-thinking" that you talked yourself out of carrying a spare mag. I'm OK with the idea of "shooting up the street" if it means I don't ... you know ... die.

That slope was nice & slippery, so I thought I'd hop on...
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Old September 15, 2005, 09:08 PM   #56
smince
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leadcouncil said:

Quote:
...(I)...do not have backup,
An excellent reason to carry extra ammunition.
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Old September 16, 2005, 08:42 AM   #57
Jack Malloy
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In all actuallity, I used to think about just saying to hell with it and putting together my own Batman utility belt, because in my job, I have to carry spare batteries, spare film, a tape recorder, spare tapes etc.
I figured Icould slip a spare mag in there in a pouch somewhere too.



>>>I usually just stick a spare in my left front pocket. Considering I have my pistol, multi-tool AND cell phone on my belt, I feel like friggin' Batman when I add a mag to it (I know I've got a grappling hook in here somewhere...)
<<<
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Old September 16, 2005, 01:50 PM   #58
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LeadCounsel Wrote:

Quote:
I, on the other hand, am in an entirely different profession, do not have backup, nor daily training
But WAIT...I though you WERE HIGHLY TRAINED!? You WROTE:

Quote:
When I was in college I worked as a campus security guard for 4 years and was trained on the force continuum and carried the usual non-lethal tools. After college I worked as an unarmed undercover retail store loss prevention detective, and was trained in military/LEO apprehension, takedown, pressure point compliance, subdual, and hand cuffing techniques and was tested regularly and had to apply those techniques (successfully 100% of the time) many times when apprehending violent shoplifters who fought back and were sometimes armed with handheld weapons (but when possible the safest bet is to let an armed shoplifter walk). During this period of time we were not allowed to carry OC per policy. I occasionally wore a stab vest or ballistic vest as it was a hostile environment. Some of my co-workers were put in the hospital at times with bad injuries from escalated events, so it was necessary to be prepared. In addition to my years of security training for situational awareness, sizing up one’s opponent, and LEO/military subdual techniques I have studied Judo since the mid-1990’s, kickboxing since the mid-1990’s (having taught kickboxing for 6 months), and sprinkled in a little tae kwon do (for the culture mainly)

In addition to my training, I am 6’1” and weigh a solid 200 lbs and am exceptionally physically fit. I played collegiate contact sports, postgraduate intramural sports, and continue to play individual and team sports. I can currently run 3 miles in 22 minutes at 1 mile elevation in Colorado (which would qualify me for the Army, Navy, or Air Force, and almost qualify as a Marine recruit). I can bench press 250 lbs, bicep curl 130, do 13 consecutive pull-ups, 100 consecutive sit-ups, and squat 400 lbs any day of the week.
Whats up with that.....mall ninja......
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Old September 16, 2005, 02:33 PM   #59
leadcounsel
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+1 Wildalaska on the "indictment" comment.

DT -- I'll stand by that statement. I don't have "daily training" as in I don't drill on a daily basis to use lethal force as our LEOs and Military does. But I do have PAST training and still train "regularly" enough to be fresh. That being said, I'm 100% confident in any 'realistic' lethal or non lethal situation I may run into in my daily life.

I'll also reiterate that I don't carry a spare mag b/c I see it as useless in a civilian urban situation and as such a waste of time and effort and it's just one more thing I've gotta carry and be responsible for and draw attention to me as a CCW, which is what I DON"T want. I've said it 100 times but it's worth restating... Don't carry a POS and you won't have to worry about it. If the Gods are frowning on you and you do get both attacked and your gun jams, then it takes less time to clear a jam than reload. Don't believe me, practice the drill. If your gun continues to jam, stop carrying a POS or get a 99.999999999% reliable revolver. A FTF means a second pull of the trigger.

I think much too much time is spent worrying about 1 in 100,000 million scenareos and not real scenarios, such as conditioning your body and mind to be able to exercise (simulating running for cover or wrestling with attacker) and then shooting, aka tactics and physical training.

To those carrying a second mag, try timing yourselves in a drill. First, see how long it takes you to reload under a real scenario. Then, see how many jams you can clear in that same time and ask yourself if you've EVER had to clear some 5 jams with your gun. If the answer is yes, get a different gun.
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Old September 16, 2005, 02:50 PM   #60
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Being an old fart, I can only bench around 200 lbs and so I must carry a spare magazine.

I have reloaded from a spare mag in all kinds of excercises under stress. In fact, some theorists suggest that with a jam, there is only one clearance exercise that makes sense - drop the mag and reload.

There is controversy with that position versus tap, rack, assess, bang but hey, grasshopper - we are students on the path to steely eyed dealer of death enlightment.

It's also fun to go to the range and advanced classes and see really high end guns go belly up when the fun starts. In my last training exercise, running through a shoot house (really outdoors) with moving targets and doors and walls and windows, my normally reliable G19 went oops and the instructors and students complimented me on my automatic and fast reload and getting back into the fight.

See you at the mall, guys.
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Old September 16, 2005, 03:37 PM   #61
SomeKid
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Quote:
DT -- I'll stand by that statement. I don't have "daily training" as in I don't drill on a daily basis to use lethal force as our LEOs and Military does.
Lead, do you really think the average street cop trains on a daily basis on using lethal force?
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Old September 16, 2005, 04:01 PM   #62
leadcounsel
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Batman, where do you keep your whistle on your utility belt?

Just spoke with an ex-Army E4 (aka a trained solider with years of experience working his way up from an E1). We all know that enlistees carry several magazines because it's the nature of their job. They don't carry extra ammo because they fear their guns will all jam. Admittedly civilian carry is dramatically different, but some fundamentals are the same. This is a multiple choice question so let's see how well you do: In a live fire exercise or in combat, if your weapon fails to feed, fails to cycle, fails to eject (basically a jam as we know it), the proper action is to:

A) clear the round using the charging handle or slide and resume firing; or
B) drop the full magazine and load another despite still having the obstacle of a jammed round in the chamber that still hasn't been addressed; or
C) pull out a bootknife, one of two that you regularly carry; or
D) blow on your whistle

I'll give you a hint, it isn't B, C, or D (despite all of those options being very very attractive to you).

I don't agree with what your "teachers" have to say about OC. It's only going to escalate the situation and while you've hand is holding a can of OC, your opponent has opted for his .357 in self defense. OC vs. .357, I'll take the .357 on my side.

Last I knew, sheep did what their instructors told them without questioning the logic.... Think "outside" the box.....

Last edited by leadcounsel; September 16, 2005 at 06:23 PM.
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Old September 16, 2005, 04:05 PM   #63
wayneinFL
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Quote:
To those carrying a second mag, try timing yourselves in a drill. First, see how long it takes you to reload under a real scenario. Then, see how many jams you can clear in that same time and ask yourself if you've EVER had to clear some 5 jams with your gun. If the answer is yes, get a different gun.
What exactly is a "real scenario"? Should I have a buddy punch me while I'm clearing a jam so my mag falls in the mud or in a gutter. That's going to add a lot of time.

Quote:
it's just one more thing I've gotta carry and be responsible for and draw attention to me as a CCW
That may be a reason not to carry a spare.

Quote:
Don't carry a POS and you won't have to worry about it.
That's not a reason not to carry a spare.

Neither is refusing to carry a spare out of fear of prosecution.

MW:
Quote:
My point is that this fear of hearing what a politically-motivated prosecutor MAY say to a jury seems pretty silly. I am willing to bet that neither Mas Ayoob nor Leadcounsel can produce a case where a defender was convicted in an otherwise righteous shooting simply because he was carrying a spare magazine.
As a matter of fact, Massad Ayoob, who usually leans toward the most conservative side of caution in avoiding prosecution, has given a case in his column of a man with a spare gun who beat a charge that was based on forethought of malice.
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Old September 16, 2005, 04:13 PM   #64
leadcounsel
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Cite to the article? I have not read it.

If that was the only charge against the guy, then can I presume one thing?

Was the spare mag necessary in his self-defense situation? If not it illustrates exactly my point. If that's all the DA had on the shooter, and the crux of the DA's case was malice aforethought, then the shooter placed himself at serious risk of a prison term. For what purpose? Does it say how much the shooter had to spend on his defense? Whether he lost his job?

Murder rap defenses can easily start at $25,000 and go into the 6 figures. Have you got that kinda cash layin' around?

I certainly wouldn't want some DA thinkin' that because I had an extra mag I had malice aforethought beyond a self defense situation, even where I otherwise acted within the confines of the law (like this guy, probably).
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Old September 16, 2005, 04:44 PM   #65
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Quote:
Cite to the article? I have not read it.
Oooooo. I'd have to go through a whole stack of magazines for that one. It was in his column in Guns magazine in maybe '03 or '04?

IIRC it was in Florida. He wasn't fired; he was in business for himself. IIRC, he had two guns in his truck and took one into his business. Also, IIRC, the grand jury kicked it out, before it went to trial.

Quote:
If that's all the DA had on the shooter, and the crux of the DA's case was malice aforethought, then the shooter placed himself at serious risk of a prison term. For what purpose?
For the purpose of not getting killed. It could have as easily happened to me. I carry a gun on me, and normally keep another in my van. I spend as much time in the van as out of it and it's difficult to get to my concealed gun with a seatbelt on. Should I give up one gun and take my chances with the bad guy or keep it and take my chances with the court?

Quote:
I certainly wouldn't want some DA thinkin' that because I had an extra mag I had malice aforethought beyond a self defense situation, even where I otherwise acted within the confines of the law (like this guy, probably).
If you're D.A. thinks like that, you either need to move to another jurisdiction,don't carry a gun, or just stick it out when the going gets tough. Because he's going to come up with some dirty lawyer trick no matter how clean you try to play it. IMHO.
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Old September 16, 2005, 05:42 PM   #66
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Oh, I"m sorry, it was *JUST* a grand jury empaneling for a homicide indictment charge. No biggie then.... Shooter probably didn't even bother with counsel....
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Old September 16, 2005, 06:17 PM   #67
wayneinFL
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Oh, I"m sorry, it was *JUST* a grand jury empaneling for a homicide indictment charge. No biggie then.... Shooter probably didn't even bother with counsel....
Where did the heck I say anything like that? Either you misunderstood me or you're putting up straw men.

My point is: If you have a D.A. that would prosecute you for having a spare mag, he's going to prosecute you for something else anyway.

Now if you want my opinion on the money thing, all you have to do is ask for it. Maybe it was six figures. Maybe it was $25,000. Maybe it was $50,000. Maybe the D.A. isn't the only slimy lawyer in town. Good guy probably got sued, too.

Is your life and liberty worth $25,000 or $50,000? Or are you better off dead? If your life isn't worth the money, then don't defend yourself at all.
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Old September 16, 2005, 06:32 PM   #68
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W, do you know how Grand Juries generally work (they do vary from state to state, but the concept is the same generally)?

If not, I'll tell you if you ask nicely.... but you probably won't believe me anyway :barf:

Silly to ask whether I think my life is worth X number of $. The answer is yes. Why can't you hear what I'm saying about this whole controvesy...?

I'd rather NOT be attacked; I'd rather NOT shoot someone; I'd rather NOT be shot at; I'd rather NOT have to defend my actions to a Grand Jury mainly on the grounds of malice aforethought (for an otherwise clean self defense shooting) because I was carrying more bullets than were shot in the OK Corral when the *average* self defense gunfight is 3 shots. I'd rather NOT lose my job, come under fire from the State Bar Assoc., and mortgage my house to retain a lawyer to steer me through a process because the DA thinks that my carrying an extra mag is malice aforethought. Can it happen? Evidently it did happen in FL. Sure, the grand jury's findings didn't warrent a trial, but at WHAT financial, emotional, and career costs? Sounds like he could have avoided the whole mess if he just didn't carry the spare mag.

IMO carrying an extra mag is 1) pointless b/c you aren't ever gonna need it (and if you felt you did... you know my position about that); 2) adds extra weight and concealment issues; 3) is one more thing you've got to be responsible for; 4) takes up space that would work better for something else; 5) could be grounds for a left wing DA with an agenda to put YOU on the chopping block to help make HIS career milestone. Did I forget anything...?

Also, it's not realistic to keep an eye on every DA and move as often as they are replaced. Besides, a DA may be pressured by many forces beyond his own good judgment and try a case he disagrees with; it happens daily.
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Old September 16, 2005, 08:33 PM   #69
wayneinFL
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Quote:
Besides, a DA may be pressured by many forces beyond his own good judgment and try a case he disagrees with; it happens daily.
To an anti, carrying a gun is reason enough. If someone wants to hang you, he will try to hang you, no matter what hoops you try to jump through to seem like a perfectly reasonable person carrying a gun.
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Old September 16, 2005, 09:11 PM   #70
smince
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Can we get back to the subject at hand?

Maybe leadcouncil should start his own "Why not to carry this or that?" thread.
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Old September 17, 2005, 10:10 AM   #71
Edward429451
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I'm sure leadcounsel means well even if he's quite opinionated about it. Working in that defacto cesspool can probably affect your thinking after awhile.

I think that if one is so worried abought what the DA might do, then maybe it'd be best to not carry at all. Myself, I'll keep my extra ammo thanks.

I liked thar mag up the sleeve idea. Where'd you see that at? Got a link?
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Old September 17, 2005, 10:44 AM   #72
tshadow6
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spare ammo

I carry my spare mag for my semi auto in my left pocket. When I carry my J frame , I carry my speedloaders in my right front pocket.
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Old September 17, 2005, 11:58 AM   #73
Netzapper
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It depends

If I'm wearing a vest (not ballistic, just full of pockets, for cover) I always put a spare mag in the lower right pocket of the vest. This serves a two-fold purpose. First, I have a spare magazine, in case of malfunction or needing an extra fifteen rounds of ammo. Second, and more importantly, it provides a weight that keeps that side of the vest less susceptible to wind, and allows me to flip it open easily for my drawstroke.

If I'm not wearing my vest, it goes in my left front pocket with my cellphone.

I can hear you now: with his cellphone?

Well, it works very well. Since the magazine is longer than the cellphone, it's the first thing I hit when I stick my hand in that pocket. Furthermore, the cellphone wedges it in against the back of the pocket, preventing it from shifting around and not being in the precise location I want it to be.

It should be noted, however, that if I'm not wearing the vest, I often don't carry a spare magazine. It's probably not the safest move, but I already carry (literally) five or six pounds worth of crap in my pants. Adding in that extra half a pound of explosives and lead is just that much more uncomfortable.
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Old September 17, 2005, 12:17 PM   #74
leadcounsel
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Link to wrist mag pouch:

http://www.gamepod.com/store_020.htm

I've also seen this someplace else but I cannot locate it right now.
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Old September 17, 2005, 01:25 PM   #75
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Forget those mag carriers with the plastic retainer clip, by the time you undo the plastic clip to reach for your extra magazine - the BG has probably shot / stabbed you to pieces or both.

Try retention holders like:
https://secure.fobusholster.com/cata...x.php?cPath=28

For about 15 bucks they are a bargain, and with practice, you can reload in under 3 seconds. Plus they are paddle mounted - easy to remove and put back on without taking off your belt.

I have found - these are most convenient way to carry extra mags - unless you prefer pocket carry.
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