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Old July 22, 2005, 06:12 AM   #26
smince
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I don't really understand these holsters with a mag pouch sewn on them. If you carry strong-side, how do you reach your spare? Maybe you have really long arms and a small belly? Do you change hands with your pistol and swap mags with your strong hand?

For me, the quickest reload is to carry on my weak side, and use my off hand. Maybe I've been dong it wrong all these years?

Anyway, when not wearing a covering garment, I use an old nylon wallet with the mag and a small light carried in my left rear pocket. The wallet helps protect the mag from lint somewhat and keeps it from shifting position.

With a cover garment, In a Wilson combo that carries one mag and my Surefire 6P.

Always carry a spare, even with hi-caps. Some malf's are best cleared by dropping the mag in the gun and reloading with the spare.
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Old July 22, 2005, 06:21 AM   #27
MidKnight
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Cyber...

I know the pocket you're talking about... It also helps because it keeps the mag in an upright position. I used to use that pocket for my foling knives. Always knew where the thumb lever would be! Same goes for the mag, always sure of how it will come out of the pocket. Consistency is good.
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Old July 22, 2005, 02:11 PM   #28
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That pocket is awesome, hehe, I look for it now all the time when I buy pants or shorts. =)
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Old July 22, 2005, 02:33 PM   #29
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On or off duty, "Buck" knife sheath on left side belt next to the cell phone. Just right for a 13 round Glock 23 mag., with a snap flap for security.
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Old July 22, 2005, 11:50 PM   #30
carebear
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Fairly high ride belt pouch just behind the hip or in backleft pocket.

Sometimes suit coat left pocket if I'm wearing one.
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Old July 23, 2005, 10:45 AM   #31
Para Bellum
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Safariland 123, horizontal

horziontal on weak hand belt side in a safariland-holster. looks like a cellphone...
When the Magazine is there it totally fits and becomes all rectangular...
You froget that it's there, it's safe and very fast to access. I even use it in IPSC competitions and I don't loose time compared to other holsters:




Quote:
Model 123
Concealment Magazine Holder, Horizontal
Single magazine holder— carries magazines in a horizontal position
Hook-and-loop belt attachment wraps around belt
Hook-and-loop flap keeps the magazine in the pouch
Available in Plain Black finish
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Old July 23, 2005, 05:16 PM   #32
cosmolinelover
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I personally like to "surprise myself" and carry the extra mag in a new place everyday. Mondays I prefer it in my left front pocket, tuesdays I really feel better if its in the right front pocket. However on Thursdays I like to cram it in my right rear pocket between my wallet so it messes up my back when I sit down. And on the sabboth I have a lanyard that I hang the extra mag around my neck with.

Seriously though? Left front pocket.
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Old July 23, 2005, 05:54 PM   #33
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Clip-on belt carrier just forward of my left hip pointer.
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Old July 23, 2005, 06:14 PM   #34
ATW525
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In the smartcarry pocket if I'm wearing smartcarry, in a double mag pouch on my left side if I'm wearing that, in a double mag pouch under my right arm if I'm wearing my shoulder rig, or in my left front pocket if I'm wearing none of the above. I highly recommend against carrying the magazine in alot of different places, but I clearly don't follow my own advice. Typically I carry between 25-46 rounds when I leave the house. Most likely I'll never need that many, but if I ever do I'll be glad that I have it
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Old July 23, 2005, 10:38 PM   #35
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Man, You guys must think im crazy. I got 5 shots, and thats it, my backup is my fist.
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Old July 24, 2005, 05:35 AM   #36
smince
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Quote:
Man, You guys must think im crazy. I got 5 shots, and thats it, my backup is my fist
I always carry at least one reload, whether it is my Keltec .32 or an AR15, or anything in between.
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Old September 14, 2005, 01:57 PM   #37
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I can hear the DA now, speaking to the Jury in the murder prosecution case:

"The defendant has the right to defend himself from imminent deadly harm. However, this defendant carries with him on a daily basis 32 bullets for his 9mm pistol. During the altercation, the defendant shot all 16 bullets from his gun, stopped, reloaded his gun, and then shot several more times."

I think that it would not sit well with a Jury in most anti-gun courtrooms in America. It seems that carrying one gun and ammo for it is justifiable. But when you are carrying an arsenal, you may destroy your credibility for "self defense." I think carrying more ammo makes you look like you're looking for a reason to get into a gun fight. Also, in my opinion, if you can't handle a garden variety self-defense problem with 1 magazine, you're in over your head. It's either because
A) you're a really really bad aim, in which case you need more practice
B) you are severely outnumbered and have no business drawing your gun, you should leave the situation immediately
C) you are severly outnumbered and should draw your gun and leave the area immediately
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Old September 14, 2005, 02:41 PM   #38
MikeWrite
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I always carry a spare mag for my Glock 26, though usually in a pocket rather than on my belt. My pistol might malfunction. The mag might get knocked out of my gun in a fight. I might run out of ammo and need to reload.

I have to dispute Leadcounsel's statements:

"A) you're a really really bad aim, in which case you need more practice"

Skill degradation in gunfights versus "practice" has been estimated by many authorities to be in the 50%-80% range. This means that even a well-practiced shooter who scores 100% on a qualification course may only shoot half that well when under deadly stress.

"B) you are severely outnumbered and have no business drawing your gun, you should leave the situation immediately
"C) you are severly outnumbered and should draw your gun and leave the area immediately"

If I am severely outnumbered, I am MORE likely to need my gun (and maybe a spare mag), not less. Obviously, if one can safely withdraw from a situation, one should, but this applies equally to situations where one faces a hostile individual or a gang.

I also find this "I can hear the DA now" stuff pretty amusing coming from the guy who, in another thread, says that he:

* wears a threat level IIA vest regularly (I can hear the DA now, asking why a mere citizen needs body armor like that used by police)
* uses a Glock 35 .40 with a 15 rd clip (I can hear the DA now, asking why a mere citizen needs a high-capacity pistol firing high-powered police rounds)
* suits up with pistol, flashlight, phone, vest and electronic ear protectors when there's a noise in the house (I can hear the DA now, asking why a mere citizen needs to outfit himself like SWAT cop to confront a teenage burglar)
* uses hollowpoint Corbons (I can hear the DA now, asking why regular or police-issue bullets weren't deadly enough for this mere citizen)

My point is that this fear of hearing what a politically-motivated prosecutor MAY say to a jury seems pretty silly. I am willing to bet that neither Mas Ayoob nor Leadcounsel can produce a case where a defender was convicted in an otherwise righteous shooting simply because he was carrying a spare magazine.

Recycled scare stories about courtroom theatrics from anti-gun DAs helps fill Massad's monthly columns, and probably sells issues of "Combat Handguns" to lots of petrified, underconfident new shooters. I'm not sure they should materially affect the choices of serious gun carriers, whether the issue is carrying spare magazines, wearing body armor, or anything else.

Mike
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Old September 14, 2005, 03:00 PM   #39
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With some of the high-cap guns out there, some of you are carrying 25-30 rounds with an extra mag. I'm carrying 6+1 and feel confident I can get myself out of harms way. Why in the world would you need 20+ rounds?
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Old September 14, 2005, 03:00 PM   #40
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+1 for left rear pocket
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Old September 14, 2005, 03:19 PM   #41
leadcounsel
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For the record, I typically am carrying 1 mag with 10 rounds as a CCW. I have a variety of choices for home defense, including longguns.

What I use in my home under a burglary situation is alot different to what I would use in a public environment. Equally important, in Colorado the law is largely different in the public environment than in one's home.

For instance, in defense of one's homestead and people therein, one is completely immune from criminal prosecution or civil liability and his actions are judged with more leniency. People have been immune from liability, for instance for delivering a fatal shot to the burglar when the burglar was wounded and laying prone and unarmed on the porch! I'll get you the name of the case if you don't believe me. It may not even be a case citation but more of a preliminary hearing because I don't think it went to trial. At any rate, that would be completely different in the public arena. Further, it's not practical to carry or implement some of the home defense tools in the public arena. Hence, the weapons and tools I use in my home may vary from what I carry daily. Provided they are legal, the weapons I use in home defense are really moot in the eyes of the law, and no jury will ever hear that DA argument.

With regard to the point about what the DA might argue if a public self defense shooting goes to trial, sure, it's speculation. However, that's an agle the DA might use. However, say you did get surrounded by a gang and had to fire all two mags to escape your movie-type scenario. First, the scenario isn't very realistic. Gangs dispurse or fire back when fired on. I highly doubt anyone would survive long enough to load the second clip if a gang of 30 is firing on you. Best bet is to flee. Second, if the gang doesn't have a gun, your first couple shots will send the 18 year old predators fleeing. If you continue to shoot, you'll end up in jail or at least lose your CCW rights. Now, if the gang presumably doesn't have guns and yet keeps coming at you like a hoard of zombies or Aliens, unconcerned by your repeated gunfire then so be it, but it isn't reality (In my world, anyway).....

Some argue that you can use suppressing fire to escape. Maybe in some circumstances, but in my world there are civis everywhere and suppressing fire CAN hit and kill someone, which is clearly negligence. It can also damage alot of property which you can be responsible for. And, you'll be answering alot of questions from the po po. If you're in a combat zone and a soldier, suppressing fire is justified. Suppressing fire in the civilian world is irresponsible and unacceptable.

In Colorado, you can use lethal self defense in public only when a lesser degree of force won't work AND only until the threat is stopped. Read that as meaning if they are not using lethal force, or if they stop using lethal force or flee, you are committing a crime by continuing to shoot. And you are seriously endangering other people.

If I were a DA, I don't think it would be difficult to convince a jury, even like minded gun toting folks, that you shooting up the streets of (insert your city here) is at all responsible nor within the true meaning of self-defense. If I were the DA my attack would be twofold:

1) I'd try to convince the jury that you are a gun nut (not you personally, because we all own and carry lots of different gun that would make the left poop their pants), as evidenced by carrying MORE than adequate firepower and number of bullets;
2) I'd try to convince the jury that you're just looking for a reason to shoot up the city, as evidenced by regularly carrying all that ammo...

I'd certainly be inclined to convict someone of burning through two magazines and shooting up God knows what under anything but a zombie situation. I certainly wouldn't want that person having a CCW anymore.

You and I both know how sensational the news makes it when someone is caught with "200 rounds of ammo" or whatever, yet that really isn't that much ammo. But the media, and everyday Joe, sees that and thinks you're trying to take over the world.

I only say this because we only recently got the right to CCW in Colorado, and like most states, it's only a couple of bad incidents away from "dangerous failure." It concerns me that people readily carry and expect to use not just one full clip of ammo, but a backup gun or a second clip of ammo. If you really don't trust your primary gun from failure, get a different gun such as a revolver.
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Old September 14, 2005, 03:28 PM   #42
SomeKid
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+1 to Para

I carry this at about 1130.

http://www.safariland.com/products.asp?id=57

Great little thing to hold my backup mag for my G23.

Carry the weapon at about 4, right hand draws, left can yank the reload out.

Also, when in the middle of a fight, you won't be worrying about some idiot DA. Stay alive, then you can tell your side of the story. Between you and your lawyer, everything the DA says you ought to be able to rip apart if it is legit.
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Old September 14, 2005, 05:18 PM   #43
smince
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To those who carry one mag:

I hope you have practiced your malfunction drills while juggling your one and only magazine. And hopefully, it won't be an SW or BHP with a mag disconnect safety, just in case you drop/loose it.
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Old September 14, 2005, 05:28 PM   #44
Duxman
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Lead - I am not as eloquent as you. Obviously you are in the profession of law - good for you. Can you please enlighten us on any cases out there, where the said normal citizen carried more than 1 magazine, and was lawfully prosecuted because of that fact?

Also, last time I checked, police carry 2 extra magazines fully loaded - are they all gun nuts? Or just prepared?

There is no law that I know of that restricts the amount of ammo one carries to backup your CC piece. Can you enlighten us if there is?
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Old September 14, 2005, 05:51 PM   #45
leadcounsel
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First, cops go toward danger as part of their jobs, and have backup and routine training. And, sometimes cops are attacked because of their uniforms. I, on the other hand, am in an entirely different profession, do not have backup, nor daily training, nor is it my job to stop crime. My JOB is to Cover MY A** and get out a dangerous situation alive, while ensuring that I use the amount of force necessary but NO MORE because that could cost me my freedom, my job, my professional license, etc. Now, I have to do that in the confines of daily life and "normal" business attire. The addition of a another piece of equipment, that is likely useless, to me seems like overpreparation for an event that probably won't happen, but COULD.

As far as caselaw, that is more research than I care to do right now and likely will be either uncompelling or unavailable (because the jury isn't going to spell out, "Well, we would not have convicted BUT for the fact that he had that extra magazine and shot a few more times than necessary...). It is what it is. However, in Colorado I'll refer you to the law (abridged version for relevance), Colorado Revised Statutes 18-1-704. Use of physical force in defense of a person.
(1) ...a person is justified in using physical force upon another person in order to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force by that other person, and he may use a degree of force which he reasonably believes to be necessary for that purpose.
(2) Deadly physical force may be used only if a person reasonably believes a lesser degree of force is inadequate and:
(a) The actor has reasonable ground to believe, and does believe, that he or another person is in imminent danger of being killed or of receiving great bodily injury;

Now, that being spelled out quite clearly, if you can't rely on a single hi-cap magazine to solve the overwhelming majority of lethal situations then by all means, carry an extra pound of weight daily. Or, if you cannot rely on your gun to function and think you'll need to drop mags or switch guns, then carry an extra mag or gun.

I'm advocating carrying the appropriate and wisest gear for a person who wants to prepare for a real world scenario. That varies for everyone depending on a lot of different environments. Sometimes its only a knife. Sometimes it's only a small caliber pocket pistol. Sometimes it's a full sized 1911. Sometimes the proper gear is a 12 gauge pump and armor. However, in normal urban America, 5 shots is probably adequate. I don't like adequate, so I opt for 10. Others have 15. But since it's probably rare than any of us have ever had to use lethal force, coupled with the fact that the average gun "fight" is 3 shots, I pose the question why a person should carry 20-30+ bullets? I think you're just asking for trouble. And, IMO, it's the difference between being "prepared" for an unlikely confrontation and "looking" for a gunfight.

I think that such a person is visualizing being "pinned down" by several gunmen, or having to shoot over his shoulder while running for cover, or any similar equally improbable scenario. Again, if it's because you cannot trust your gun, get a reliable semi-auto or switch to a revolver.
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Old September 14, 2005, 06:49 PM   #46
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leadcounsel wrote:

Quote:
I can hear the DA now, speaking to the Jury in the murder prosecution case:

"The defendant has the right to defend himself from imminent deadly harm. However, this defendant carries with him on a daily basis 32 bullets for his 9mm pistol. During the altercation, the defendant shot all 16 bullets from his gun, stopped, reloaded his gun, and then shot several more times."

I think that it would not sit well with a Jury in most anti-gun courtrooms in America. It seems that carrying one gun and ammo for it is justifiable. But when you are carrying an arsenal, you may destroy your credibility for "self defense." I think carrying more ammo makes you look like you're looking for a reason to get into a gun fight. Also, in my opinion, if you can't handle a garden variety self-defense problem with 1 magazine, you're in over your head. It's either because
A) you're a really really bad aim, in which case you need more practice
B) you are severely outnumbered and have no business drawing your gun, you should leave the situation immediately
C) you are severly outnumbered and should draw your gun and leave the area immediately

You said the exact same thing on another thread. Is this cut & paste our opinion day or what?

So you see absolutely no justifiable instance in which the use or need of another magazine would be appropriate?

How do you keep from running into things with your blinders on?
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Old September 14, 2005, 07:20 PM   #47
Doug.38PR
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I always carry my extra magazine for my 1911 in my right side inside coat/jacket pocket or in my left pants pocket. That way my left hand (the one that wouldn't be holding the gun) would be free to reach in and get it in either place without having to switch hands.
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Old September 14, 2005, 08:52 PM   #48
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<<I can hear the DA now, speaking to the Jury in the murder prosecution case:>>

Every round fired has to be justified by self defense. If there was still a threat, for whatever reason, then firing 500 rounds won't make a difference.

Just show the video recreation of the Miami shootout that I saw, and play it for the jury. One suspect was shot multiple times, but was still functioning.

<<I think that such a person is visualizing being "pinned down" by several gunmen, or having to shoot over his shoulder while running for cover, or any similar equally improbable scenario. Again, if it's because you cannot trust your gun, get a reliable semi-auto or switch to a revolver.>>

By your logic no one should bother to carry a weapon at all as it is vastly improbable that one would ever be needed. One might say that someone who carries a gun is looking for a gunfight. Improbable is not impossible. I hope improbability doesn't kill you.
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Old September 14, 2005, 11:34 PM   #49
dave_in_delaware
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I carry a spare 15 rnd mag in my OWB/IWB holster from Mil-Tech. It's got a spare mag pouch right on the front of the holster, next to my XD-9 subbie.
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Old September 15, 2005, 04:19 AM   #50
SomeKid
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Just a thought regarding your spare magazine.

I would recommend AGAINST carrying your spare with the gun, and here is why.

You use one hand to draw the weapon, if you want to get the spare mag, you have to switch the gun to the other hand, then draw the mag. Most people would then switch back to their primary hand for handling the gun. In a fight, this could be too much time lost.

I carry my spare in a way that my alternate hand can draw the spare as I am drawing my sidearm with my primary. IMO, it puts me in a better position if it gets really bad, really quick.
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