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Old April 12, 2005, 05:50 PM   #1
FirstFreedom
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Which .223 - Savage 40 Varmint, or CZ 527 Varmint Laminated?

I had thought that the Savage 40 single shot varmint rifle only came in .22 hornet, but apparently now it comes in .223 as well, despite what the website shows (or maybe it doesn't?). So which is the better rifle for the money, do you think:

http://www.savagearms.com/40Varmint.htm
-MRSP $436
-Wt: 7.75 lbs
-Single shot
-Laminated/Blued
-3 swivel studs
-24" Heavy barrel
-AccuTrigger

or

http://www.cz-usa.com/01.detail.php?id=14
-MSRP $697
-Wt: 7.9 lbs
-5 shot detachable mag
-Laminated/Blued
-24" heavy barrel
-Single set trigger

I think I just answered my own question with the relative prices. That Savage looks to be a deal....anyone know whether it is available in .223 rem? I saw this on one website.
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Old April 13, 2005, 04:17 AM   #2
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I've said it before and I'll say it again - you can't go wrong with a SAVAGE!
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Old April 14, 2005, 03:28 PM   #3
FirstFreedom
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Ummm, oops. Just talked to Kathy at Savage. The 40 will NOT be in .223. The statement to that effect I saw on another website was an error. The 40, only available in .22 hornet, will be out in May 05 (next month).
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Old April 14, 2005, 10:02 PM   #4
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yeah

the reason that the 40 will not be offered in .223, according to what i heard is that the action is a rimfire type not a centerfire rifle design.
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Old April 15, 2005, 04:20 PM   #5
Mike Hull
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Just keep in mind that the 527 laminate comes with 1:12 rifling twist, relegating you to the lighter bullets(at least if you want accuracy), while the 527 Kevlar comes with the 1:9 twist allowing you to shoot 69-77 grainers also, should you choose, for longer range use.

Just a thought.
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Old April 19, 2005, 02:03 PM   #6
12 Volt Man
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Quote:
Just keep in mind that the 527 laminate comes with 1:12 rifling twist, relegating you to the lighter bullets(at least if you want accuracy), while the 527 Kevlar comes with the 1:9 twist allowing you to shoot 69-77 grainers also, should you choose, for longer range use.

Everyone keeps saying 1:12. Including CZ-USA. I got a CZ 527 Laminate in .223 a few weeks ago. We put in a tight fitting patch, made a mark on the cleaning rod, then we let the patch rotate with the rifling in the barrel. It made 1 full twist in 9 inches every time.

It is a 1:9 twist.
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Old April 20, 2005, 11:12 AM   #7
Mike Hull
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Quote:
Everyone keeps saying 1:12. Including CZ-USA. I got a CZ 527 Laminate in .223 a few weeks ago. We put in a tight fitting patch, made a mark on the cleaning rod, then we let the patch rotate with the rifling in the barrel. It made 1 full twist in 9 inches every time.

Then you'd better notify the sales, and tech people at CZ-USA, as they have told many people, me included that only the 527 Kevlar comes with 1:9 twist, and ALL others come with 1:12.

If their info is wrong, it's time to straighten them out.

Edited to add;
I just talked to a guy named Mike, at CZ-USA, and trying to explain the confusion about this to him got the distinct impression he disliked internet forums.
The other thing he said was, the 527 Kevlar was the only one(in 223) that has 1:9 twist, so I told him about your measurement, and his reply was "well, so he has 1:9 twist too, what's your point"?
He then went on to say that "most people couldn't shoot at any range at all anyway so why the fuss"? And "CZ has the option to change specs at any time they choose.

I called to ask a question, and point out something that could possibly cost them sales on some models due to misinformation on rifling twists, and the guy starts being confrontational, and telling me that this is why he dislikes internet furums.

What a way to do business. :barf:

12 Volt Man, thanks for your info.
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Old April 20, 2005, 12:22 PM   #8
12 Volt Man
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Mike at CZ-USA has treated many people poorly over the phone. Don't take it personal.

It is sad that they don't even know their own product. I guess he doesn't like internet forums because as a group, we know more about their products than they do.

Now if you need smith work done on a CZ, he is a good smith. Just not much of a people person.

I do know for a fact, that at least my Laminate 527 has a 1 in 9 barrel twist rate. I wish someone else could check it too. Then we would know.
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Old April 20, 2005, 12:59 PM   #9
Mike Hull
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Quote:
Mike at CZ-USA has treated many people poorly over the phone. Don't take it personal.
No, I won't. I just don't understand why companies allow rude people to represent them on the phone.

Quote:
It is sad that they don't even know their own product. I guess he doesn't like internet forums because as a group, we know more about their products than they do.
I agree about knowing more as a group. Maybe the dislike of the internet is also because he's tried that nasty attitude of his on forums, and paid the price.
One can hope.

I agree though, that it would be nice if a few others would check the twist rate on their .223, 527 Varmint laminates and let us know.
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Old April 20, 2005, 04:02 PM   #10
FirstFreedom
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Mike, that is indeed unbelievable, that they would hire someone that rude to represent CZ-USA....likely they don't know about it, of course. Only a letter to his boss or some higher up would have the desired effect, of having him shape up or ship out - if you have time, it wouldn't be a bad idea - obviously, that is ridiculous - to say "what's your point" - the point is, the website is wrong, and people are thus going to be buying the wrong product for their needs and wants, which is going to cause them to get guns back, which costs his employer money.
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Old April 20, 2005, 04:19 PM   #11
IZZY
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Dosn't like internet groups...too bad. thinks we can't shoot? Let him think what he wants...

maybe an e-mail or phone call to the CZ factory would even him out?
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Old April 20, 2005, 04:30 PM   #12
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I am willing to bet that internet forums have contributed to at least 1/2 of all the firearms that CZ-USA has sold in the US.

Plus, internet forums have pretty much kept Mike in a job. I can't tell you how many times I have seen his name mentioned on various gun forums as someone to go to for trigger jobs, problem guns etc.....

He is a good smith. I wonder why they let him answer the phone.

There are nice folks who work at CZ-USA. You just have to catch the right person at the right time.
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Old April 22, 2005, 02:45 PM   #13
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I've had similar experiences with CZ. I bought one of their laminated 527, .223s and was told exactly the same thing: That the Kevlar model was 1:9 all the rest were 1:12. WRONG. As others have discovered despite assurances from Mike, the so-called Master Gunsmith at CZ in Kansas City, (one rude PIA when he's in the mood) mine is a 1:9. The last time I talked to him about the matter he basically said that they never know what Europe is going to do and are saying what they've been told.

Pete

Last edited by Primered; April 22, 2005 at 03:19 PM.
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