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Old April 22, 2005, 11:50 AM   #26
spacemanspiff
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Someone leads me to believe they are trained to fight, martial arts, and ultimate fighting types I’m blasting.

I am not paid to fight nor am I trained to fight beyond minimal to moderate resistance we usually encounter when arresting someone who just wants to get away from us and not go to jail.
it must be nice to be a cop and not have to justify your actions like us peasants would.
do what you feel you need to do. unload on people that walk towards you muttering 'i know kung fu'. what do i care?
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Old April 22, 2005, 02:25 PM   #27
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Spaceman,

It's not that he thinks he's better than you and me - "us peasants" as you say. It's just that cops ARE in an authoritative position in our society and in that vein, they deserve to be (are REQUIRED to be!) obeyed when told to "STOP!". Why is it that someone who punches a cop is in MUCH deeper doo-doo than someone who punches a gumball repairman? Why is it that killing a police dog is often the SAME as killing a human officer? Because they are better than us? No, it's because they represent the law of the land and automatically deserve respect.
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Old April 22, 2005, 02:38 PM   #28
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Why is it that killing a police dog is often the SAME as killing a human officer?
Do you have a state statute to back that one up???

I never thought I was very tough, but I guess I've always been tough enough to take someone into custody without blowing their brains out because they tried to punch me in the nose and just happened to be bigger than me.
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Old April 22, 2005, 02:54 PM   #29
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It's not as stiff as murder but in GA it's still a felony.


OCGA 16-11-107(b) Any person who knowingly and intentionally destroys or causes serious or debilitating physical injury to a police dog or police horse, knowing said dog to be a police dog or said horse to be a police horse, shall be guilty of a felony and, upon conviction thereof, shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years, or a fine not to exceed $10,000.00, or both. This subsection shall not apply to the destruction of a police dog or police horse for humane purposes.
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Old April 22, 2005, 03:00 PM   #30
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If I was in K9, I'd have a hard time NOT blasting the dirt ball that killed my 4-legged partner.
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Old April 22, 2005, 03:02 PM   #31
FrankDrebin
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Why is it that killing a police dog is often the SAME as killing a human officer?

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It's not as stiff as murder but in GA it's still a felony.
Hmmmm.......So in other words, it's not NEARLY the same as killing a police officer, let alone "often" the same.....
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Old April 22, 2005, 03:08 PM   #32
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Frank, nope I don't have the statute on that one. I was talking to an officer at my place of business once, and he said that people have been triedin court for murdering an officer after they had killed a police dog. I was relying too much on his statements, I suppose. Sorry for the (apparently) false info......the point of the post is still intact, though, even if it only qualifies as a non-murder felony.
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Old April 22, 2005, 03:12 PM   #33
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I try to keep the bullship to a minimum on these websites (and life in general), and I wondered at the time if I was going too far out on a limb in saying what I said. I just didn't know that Franky D was waiting there with a hacksaw!

I've now officially been "Drebin'd".
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Old April 22, 2005, 03:26 PM   #34
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Say you go to a family trouble run where the man is going to be arrested for domestic violence, and he's putting on a show so he doesn't look like a punk in front of his woman and kids. "Nobody's taking ME to jail! I'll kick your ass! You're just gonna have to KILL me!" Then he starts walking toward the door that you're standing in front of and doesn't stop when you tell him to.

I've been to dozens of calls like that and ended up fighting with men and women who were a lot bigger than me, and never had to kill any of them. Are you just going to shoot the unarmed guy a few times in the chest in front of his woman and kids and then tell the newspapers it was a "gunfight" because you brought a gun?
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Old April 22, 2005, 03:32 PM   #35
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Time changes, and the rules change with them. When I was a LEO many, many, moons ago, I was trained in this manner; Never pull your service weapon unless you intend to use it, and when you do shoot to kill!

As a retired old fart my rule today is; Never pull your gun unless you, (your family / friends) are threatened with deadly force. Be calm, be cool!

As a realist; you can never be sure what you will do in a deadly force situation. If you make a mistake; there by the grace of God, go I!
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Old April 22, 2005, 03:35 PM   #36
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No, I don't suppose I would.

But what COULD you do? If there's a substantial size discrepancy with the BG being the big one, what do you do in a situation like that? Mace him?

How many punches to the face do you have to absorb before you DO shoot the guy? Or, if he's winning, do you just let him pummel you unconscious, take your gun, and run? The whole topic got started by talking about a large perp saying he's gonna kick the cops ass and not stopping when told to stop, and a smaller officer who would be obviously outmatched in a fist fight. I can still see shooting the guy.
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Old April 22, 2005, 03:55 PM   #37
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What happens if some guy who is bigger than you sucker punches you at a bar fight? You're just going to shoot him in the chest?
I have to ask a few question to this. What role is he playing? Is he a patron of the bar on his night off? Is he in LEO attire on official police buisiness?
Do LEO's routinely jump into the middle of bar fights to break them up, or does the whole place get O.C.'d beforehand?
I am not a LEO so please tell me what the proper procedure is in responding to a bar fight. If I were a LEO I don't think it would be very smart to go charging blindly into something like that without a plan. Heck I would EXPECT to get sucker punched.

I believe that each scenario is unique. The mind is able to process alot of information quickly in rapidly developing situations. Having said that it would seem that you will definitly know when it is time to use your weapon. Some situations develop so fast that you just doen't have time to attempt multiple forms of threat suppression so you would instictively prepare for the use of deadly force.
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Old April 22, 2005, 04:08 PM   #38
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BTW, I'm not a big guy either and if I were a LEO, and a big mo'fo' was threatening me with bodily harm, advancing on me, I would have no choice but to assume he thinks he's going to give me a beat down and take my weapon and then possibly use it against me in his getaway. WHat should I do? Which one would you do?
1) run away
2) run around in circles and hope I'm quicker than he is until backup arrives
3) make a bee-line for the squad car while spraying OC over my shoulder.
4) say my prayers and prepare to meet my maker.
5) Draw down on him and order him to stop, if he doesn't than I assume he intends beat me and use my weapon against me so I fire at him.

We had a scenario in here where a female officer responded to a call about a man with a knife. When she arrived on the scene it was a foreign guy with a box cutter. He started toward her so she commanded him to drop the knife. He did not so she drew on him. as he advanced toward her she walked backward. She had her shoulder mounted radio mic keyd the whole time so all of her commands and the whole scenario could be heard by dispatch and fellow officers in route. To make a long story short she had to use deadly force. The fact that she held her mic button is what saved her from lawsuits etc, I think.
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Old April 22, 2005, 05:36 PM   #39
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Here is the problem with many LEO’s today and a good number of the old hands from yester-year.

They all have this billy-bad-@$$ mentality which leads them to believe they are required to stand between the world and all that’s evil, they fully believe they must go toe to toe with each and every bad guy who bows up, talks back or runs from them and the good old fashion @$$ whooping was the order of the day.

Speaking as a LEO with experience spanning a good part of a decade I can stand here and say with confidence that nothing could be farther from the truth.

You will end up in a civil lawsuit quicker for physically going toe to toe with an opponent today than you will if you use OC, a baton or tazer or end up shooting a person due to the afore mentioned variables.

Why you may ask…

When all is said and done nowhere in any SOP does it state you can use in any manor as a weapon your body, except in exigent circumstances, in which case you would be justified using the bumper off a 1940 Ford coupe if you had it.

Punching to the face is considered excessive and is a no-no in any department, you cannot use your feet but only in a take down, you cannot kick a suspect, you cannot choke a suspect (a supreme no-no) and you cannot use any form of martial arts expect in extreme circumstances and a good example is those cops in Atlanta who were just recently fired for using a type of “ultimate fighting” maneuver to take a person down.

The GBI ruled it violated all APD SOP and was not approved in any GA approved training curriculum and was far beyond excessive, but yet said the cops would have been justified in using the ASP baton which all of the carried at the time but did not use.

Our SOP outlines the UOFC, which starts with officer presence and verbal commands, then moves into soft open hands, OC and hard open hands and pressure points, then impact weapons and then deadly force.

The only strikes we were taught in the academy and the only ones approved to be taught in any course in GA is/were open palm strikes and strikes to various pressure points.

We were taught and our SOP clearly outlines that if those don’t work you go to an impact weapon or higher.

The FBI does not teach any form of hand-to-hand beyond open strikes, take downs and grappling, if it goes beyond that they are to move to some form of a weapon.

If you go to court and you physically pounded a person in a fist fight how is that going to look to a jury, or one better how would it look to a passerby, seeing you do your best Rocky Balboa impression on the street corner over, deploying an impact weapon, which everyone already accepts as a standard piece of cop equipment, and you are giving verbal commands then ending the altercation with one or two well placed strikes, over spending 2 minutes exchanging face and upper body punches with some guy?

This whole idea that we are required to absorb a given amount of violence just because we are cops is preposterous, maybe 25 years ago, but today we are given more and more tools which are designed to keep us out of the ER and on the job, OC, Tazer, Baton etc…

And ultimately deadly force which can and has been used justifiably against unarmed attackers.
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Old April 22, 2005, 05:55 PM   #40
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Speaking as a LEO with experience spanning a good part of a decade I can stand here and say with confidence that nothing could be farther from the truth.
How many years do you have on the job?

Quote:
Here is the problem with many LEO’s today and a good number of the old hands from yester-year.

They all have this billy-bad-@$$ mentality which leads them to believe they are required to stand between the world and all that’s evil, they fully believe they must go toe to toe with each and every bad guy who bows up, talks back or runs from them and the good old fashion @$$ whooping was the order of the day.
I didn't avoid killing people that I didn't have to kill because I thought I was a bad ass, I did it because it was the right thing to do.

Quote:
This whole idea that we are required to absorb a given amount of violence just because we are cops is preposterous, maybe 25 years ago, but today we are given more and more tools which are designed to keep us out of the ER and on the job, OC, Tazer, Baton etc…
So why didn't you use your more and more tools here:

Quote:
Imagine if I stop a car one night, way out in the boonies miles from any sign of backup and immediately this huge guy gets out of the car squares off on me and announces he’s going to kick my @$$, he’s 6 foot tall and weighs in at around the 250 mark.

Guess what, he’s getting one chance to stop his closure towards me then its’ straight to deadly force.

Now if someone say 5 10 about 180 pounds but clearly in good physical shape does the same, guess what…

Same ending.
Given your choice of weapons here, when WOULD you use your less lethal tools???? When someone refuses to pass the ketchup? And what does the "out in the boonies with no sign of backup for miles" have to do with anything? If you knew that back-up was 1 minute away, would you fight with the guy for one minute? You could take care of the guy if back-up was 1 minute away, but not 10? And if he first got out of the car, then "squared off" at you, you wouldn't have time to do anything other than shoot him after he started walking toward you after getting out of the car and after squaring off? If it's straight to deadly force for a guy who is 5'8 and in good shape, who do you use your taser and OC and baton on?????
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Old April 22, 2005, 06:36 PM   #41
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I think that the answers to both 1 and 2(in a common sense way, legal issues are state by state) are simple: Don't pull your pistol unless your ready to shoot. Not saying that you should every time, just that by pulling a weapon you can escalate things...
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Old April 22, 2005, 07:37 PM   #42
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8 years, started working in a small rural county S.O. of 19,000 total population, moved up to a large city PD in the Atlanta Metro area, total city/county population 119,000, I now work for my home county S.O. which has a population combined city and county of around 45,000.

My order of preservations goes like this,

My life/well being
My partner’s life/well being
My paycheck
My partner’s paycheck
Your (the public) @$$

Sorry it goes that way but again I don’t get paid to fight, my state certification says peace officer not ball buster.

I am currently writing a paper for the Georgia Police Academy on the application of deadly force and it’s justification, which will be submitted to POST for inclusion into the basic Peace Officers Training Curriculum. I plan on expanding this into a full 24 hour lecture in about 2 years once the total basic mandate course is expanded allowing me the time within the state required training hours.

This module will cover both armed and unarmed attackers and will be well founded in current case law as well as GA law as the General Counsel for the Georgia Bureau of Investigation interprets it.

Most of my opinions about deadly force against an unarmed attacker have come from those court rulings and not surprisingly make good sense. The courts tend to agree that in the face of uncertainty or overwhelming odds such as an unarmed attacker who without question poses a substantial threat to your ability to fend off an attack because of size disparity or a perceived ability to fight such as an attempt to employ a martial arts or a display of the same in your presence, which places you in fear of great bodily harm due to your in ability to counter such threats you can use deadly force.


You are either missing or circling deliberately the whole crux of the argument, which was use of force vs. street fighting and the level of force introduced at the beginning was deadly, I began to inject other options into the basis of the argument, while not trying to stray from the original topic.

The gun option

As for using other means that too would depend on the totality of the situation, was this initially a peaceful contact, which began to escalate up the R.A.M. chain or was it full blown charge towards me once the cars come to a stop and his door flies open, he barrels out full bore at me, giving me little to no time to even think about assessing the threat, just reaction.

If you recall from you basic training you should know that action is three to five as fast as reaction even with the most seasoned of gunfighters.

Remember I hope you recall from your police academy days that you are only required by law to act upon the facts as they exist at the time, if you see some 250 pound 6 foot tall redneck brute clear the cab of his pickup charging towards you while you are still calling out the stop, any reasonable man would have to assume he was not running up to you to give you a kiss and thank you for pulling him over.

Same would apply to a little old lady exiting the car screaming and pointing a small hair dryer at you, it’s 2AM you have been on patrol 10 hours, yet to eat or take a break, it’s dark, your tired and you make a traffic stop on a lonely stretch of highway, before you can get out of the car crazy old lady roars out of the car pointing this black object at with both hands in a manor any half intelligent person would associate with holding a gun while firing.

You shoot, killing her, finding out later she only held a small compact hair dryer.

In 1998 an Ohio State Trooper shot and killed a man who exited his car quickly and began reaching to his right side under his jacket drawing an object out moving as if he was bringing it to bear on the Trooper.

The object was a cellphone, the man died at the scene from multiple gunshots as well as his young daughter who was sitting in the rear seat, when a round entered the back glass and struck her in the head.

Shooting was ruled justified and upheld all the way to the US Supreme Court.

A small framed Female Dallas PD officer shot and killed an unarmed football player after he nutted up on a traffic stop, stating he was going to kill the officer then charging her.

The man was well over 200 pounds and in excellent shape the officer was about 505 and 100 pounds soaking wet.

Ruled justified.

A Florida State Trooper shot and killed two men who exited their on a traffic stop after being told to remain in the vehicle many times, both men got out stood still for a few seconds clearly sizing up the officer and communicating back and forth over the car, Trooper calls for backup, both began to advance, Trooper yells for them to stop, both go from a walk to a full charge, Trooper emptied his handgun into both killing them at the scene.

Ruled justified.

In Georgia about 12 years ago a small town PD officer pulled over a drunk one night, had him out of the vehicle doing SFS on him, the man became physical with the officer and actually slapped the officer then began to run to his truck, the officer gave chase grabbed the guy who was trying to grab something out of the truck, the officer could not tell what he was trying to get, officer fell back about 5 steps ordered the man to stop, the man looked back at him, yelled something unintelligible on the film, then began moving as if he was trying to reach for something, officer shot him, killing him.

The investigation concluded the man had grabbed a seat belt inside the truck and was attempting to buckle it back together.

Ruled justified, officer was in reasonable fear of his life due to the unknown threat which may have been hidden from view inside the truck, the officer was anticipating the man to produce a gun or other weapon, based on his training and knowledge of stops and the extremely unusual actions of the suspect.

There are over 63,000 cases listed on the West Law Server dating back over 80 years involving deadly force against unarmed attackers, now not all of these resulted in death, but the level of force used met the threshold of deadly force.
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Old April 22, 2005, 07:56 PM   #43
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I'm starting to smell a rat....or at least a bullsh**er....

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Speaking as a LEO with experience spanning a good part of a decade I can stand here and say with confidence that nothing could be farther from the truth.
How many years do you have on the job?

Quote:
8 years, started working in a small rural county S.O. of 19,000 total population, moved up to a large city PD in the Atlanta Metro area, total city/county population 119,000, I now work for my home county S.O. which has a population combined city and county of around 45,000.
But in December 2004, you had a combined total of 5 years on.

Quote:
I’ve been in LE for a combined total of 5 years, I took a 7 year sabbatical to pursue other interests before my return, during my first tenure I pulled my back really bad sidelining me for several months, then upon my return to LE within a year of going back on patrol I was out with a blow out ham string.
What gives?? You went from having a combined total of 5 and a half combined years on the job over a span of 12 and a half years, to having 8 years on. How'd those three extra years get in there??? I'm not the type to quibble over seniority as long as somone isn't trying to BS me.....
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...30#post1460030
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Old April 22, 2005, 10:39 PM   #44
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Good advice Xavier

one pet peave, if you don't mind. Lose is what you don't want to do in battle, loose is how you need to be after you pull the trigger so you don't go nuts
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Old April 22, 2005, 10:40 PM   #45
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Old April 22, 2005, 11:15 PM   #46
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8 years, started working in a small rural county S.O. of 19,000 total population, moved up to a large city PD in the Atlanta Metro area, total city/county population 119,000, I now work for my home county S.O. which has a population combined city and county of around 45,000.

My order of preservations goes like this,

My life/well being
My partner’s life/well being
My paycheck
My partner’s paycheck
Your (the public) @$$

Sorry it goes that way but again I don’t get paid to fight, my state certification says peace officer not ball buster.
Now, if only more LEO's would see it that way. Its our duty to protect ourselves, and you guys just keep the peace. Thanks for giving me some hope!
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Old April 22, 2005, 11:33 PM   #47
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Frank I’ll be as polite as I can from this point on or just short with you…

Blanket statements like smelling a rat wins no points in any form of a debate, infact it gives away your weaknesses.

I spent 3 years working in the jail, most cops don’t consider that as being “in” LE even though I was sworn and certified at the time.

5+3=8

When ones augment is faulty or flawed the one putting forth that argument tends to attack his/her opponent, which is what you seem to be bent on doing.
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Old April 23, 2005, 05:46 AM   #48
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Still waiting on Frank to describe the proper procedure for scenarios like this, instead of picking apart each post in what seems like a cross examination in an attempt to discredit certain members. Nobody is on trial here Frank, please just tell us what steps we should take in these given circumstances from your supreme LEO perspective.
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Old April 23, 2005, 06:26 AM   #49
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FrankDrebin
I hope you are still working as a LEO, if not, please come work in my town! If you have moved on from LEO, I hope you at least participate in your states LE academy and pass on your wisdom. We need thousands more like you.

I hope that if I am stopped by a LEO on the worst day of my life - the one were I get fired, my wife leaves me, I find out I am bankrupt, and my dogs have run away - that it is Frank or a Frank trained LEO that stops me, if it is Jhands or somebody like him I will probably be killed....Even though I have never actually hurt anybody in my adult life. (I have a tendancy to be verbally argumentative, am a big guy at about 260lbs and a weightlifter/martial arts student, and a very emotional person)

As far as both scenarios that originated the thread. Same answer for both, if I believed that I or my family is in imminent danger of death or severe bodily harm I am going to use any and all means to stop the threat as quickly as possible. Civil and criminal charges be damned at that point. My family will be protected.

Somebody crazy enough to break into my house after hearing my booming voice shouting "I have a gun and fear for my life, if you come through that door I will shoot you" is a threat and will be shot. The castle rule applies here I believe that I dont have a duty to retreat in my own home. That is not to say that if it was safe to retreat and I could safely get through the situation without killing somebody, well I would always choose not to take a life if I dont have to... We do have our plan for home defense and have practiced it. Honestly now though I dont know if things would work that way at all. As I heard one guy say, "Everybody has a plan till they get punched in the mouth".

As far as the BG making a beeline for me or my family members. Totaly situational. First choice is retreat, I could pick up both my kids and run like hell if I had to. My wife also studies fighting - she is 6'3" and placed at least 3rd in every tournement she has fought in, grew up in a large family (fighting all the time), was the kid in school that beat up the bullies... I would probably have to convince her to retreat instead of breaking the guys skull on the pavement...
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Old April 23, 2005, 07:10 AM   #50
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Nobody is on trial here Frank, please just tell us what steps we should take in these given circumstances from your supreme LEO perspective.
There really is no PROPER procedure in the common sense of the word. There is what you can legally justify, and what you consider morally right or wrong. Like I said before, if I'd shot every person I could have legally justified shooting, I'd have killed a lot of people that I'm glad I didn't kill in retrospect.

Quote:
1) Your doorbell rings. You look through the window and are eye-to-eye with a Mr. Nasty demanding that you open the f'ing door or he's gonna break it down. I pull my gun, let him get a look at it, and wait for him to make the next move.
First I would call the police to make sure he's not the police. If he broke down the door while I was on the phone and I wasn't convinced he was the police when he came through, I'd probably shoot him if I was in fear for my life or my kids' lives. That way you're being recorded as you take a reasonable step to try to "let the police handle it" and also recorded as the guy breaks down the door, and as you tell him to stop, and then shoot him if you have to. Before he broke it down, I'd try to figure out WHY he wanted to break it down. Am I a drug dealer and he's another drug dealer who is trying to rob me? Is he my ******-off neighbor because he thinks I'm banging his wife? Is he the father of a young girl who thinks she's hiding out at my house after running away from home? Is it a straight up robbery?

Quote:
2) Walking back to your car in a dark parking lot. Mr. Nasty pops out and walks directly toward you with harmful intent in his eyes. I stop, unholster and give him a second or two to think it over.
First I'd be watching his hands, second pull my gun out and keep it behind my leg if I wasn't sure it was a robbery. If I thought he was armed and going to rob me I'd keep my gun at waist level tucked into my waist, pointed at him and tell him I was the police and tell him to keep his hands in the open. If it was some guy I just ****** off at the bar because I was looking at his woman, I probably wouldn't pull my gun right away, if at all. I can't think of a situation I've heard of in my experience where an unarmed or armed robber would continue after seeing the gun and being warned. It's usually not like TV where they say "You ain't got the GUTS to shoot me," and then look all surprised when they get shot. If someone does that they're likely a mental. It all depends what I reasonably think their motive is. If they keep walking and won't stop, I just might walk the other way! If it's armed robbery, he's a lot more likely to get shot than if it was just a road rage incident and I have no reason to think the guy is armed. I'm not going to kill someone just because I'm afraid of getting my ass kicked. However, if you're scared, pull your gun. If you're afraid of being seriously injured or robbed, the last thing on your mind should be being charged with a "brandishing" misdemeanor. Unfortunately, it all comes down to your judgement. There is no "magic formula". We're all adults and have the ability to reason. Your ability to reason can save your life, your wallet or your car, or send you right to prison. If you can't reason well, you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun.

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When ones augment is faulty or flawed the one putting forth that argument tends to attack his/her opponent, which is what you seem to be bent on doing.
So if someone gave you that kind of story on the street, you wouldn't be suspicious? Forgive me if I was wrong, but 6 months ago, you explained how you had 5 years of combined law enforcement experience, now you have a different standard of what constitutes law enforcement experience. You just sound do me like you're rather inexperienced, because in any big city, with your standard of deadly force, as posted in this thread, you'd have killed a dozen people by now. Also, you seem to be bent on justifying the minimum level of shooting someone instead of how to NOT have to shoot someone. You initally NEVER mentioned any kind of less lethal alternative, but went right into this:

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Imagine if I stop a car one night, way out in the boonies miles from any sign of backup and immediately this huge guy gets out of the car squares off on me and announces he’s going to kick my @$$, he’s 6 foot tall and weighs in at around the 250 mark.

Guess what, he’s getting one chance to stop his closure towards me then its’ straight to deadly force.

Now if someone say 5 10 about 180 pounds but clearly in good physical shape does the same, guess what…

Same ending.
Your attitude seems to be "Hey, I'm justified in shooting this guy, so I'm GOING to shoot him because officer X, in people vs. Y did it." Not "I'm justified in shooting this guy because I'm afraid he's going to kill me or hurt me real bad even though I have a gun, taser, OC spray, fists, flashlight, training in martial arts, etc..."

Last edited by FrankDrebin; April 23, 2005 at 08:56 AM.
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