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Old April 21, 2005, 05:47 PM   #1
tjhands
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Why do people always say......

"If I ever have to pull my gun, I'm going to use it"??

Personally (maybe I'm an idiot, and tell me if I am), I can think of a bunch of scenarios right off the top of my head as to when I'd pull a gun and not necessarily aim and fire immediately.

1) Your doorbell rings. You look through the window and are eye-to-eye with a Mr. Nasty demanding that you open the f'ing door or he's gonna break it down. I pull my gun, let him get a look at it, and wait for him to make the next move.
2) Walking back to your car in a dark parking lot. Mr. Nasty pops out and walks directly toward you with harmful intent in his eyes. I stop, unholster and give him a second or two to think it over.

I mean, the list could go on and on. I understand the mindset that you don't draw until you are justified in using it, but if we think about it hard enough, we can all come up with scenarios in which we might draw or reveal our weapons without automatically blasting away. In neither of the above situations would I have been justified legally in shooting the man, but to just stay the course is wasting very precious seconds.
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Old April 21, 2005, 05:54 PM   #2
spacemanspiff
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simple. the firearm is the last resort. in the first scenario you mentioned, you have the option of retreating to a secure location in the home, dialing 911, etc. besides, unless he has a battering ram, he's going to likely spend a couple minutes trying to get the door down.

in the second scenario, for starters you dont mention distance. there could be enough time to put distance between you and the potential thug, or at least put obstacles between you and him. if there is no weapon you can see in his hands, are you really sure that brandishing your weapon is a good idea?

what you are talking about is escalating the situation pre-emptively. sure, its fun to fantasize about it, but back on earth with the rest of us losers, we gotta make sure that every other viable alternative has been at least contemplated before jumping to showing the potential thug the business end or our gat.
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Old April 21, 2005, 05:57 PM   #3
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1) That's not really pulling a gun, and legally, you're under the castle rule anyway. You can do whatever the hell you want with your gun, aside from shooting it at non-threats.

2) Highly debatable, but yeah, I guess that's legit. Ideally, you're not supposed to draw it until you are very sure that the guy's going to attack you and you are going to open fire if he doesn't back off RIGHT NOW.
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Old April 21, 2005, 06:10 PM   #4
tjhands
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In situation #1, I sure as hell wouldn't run into another room, call 911 and wait for my heros to show up on white ponies. I'd do just as described. Not aiming it, not speaking - just draw and maintain eye contact. When he runs away, then I'd head for the phone.

Situation #2.....I picture a couple car lengths (what, 20 feet or so?) and closing fast. Sure I could yell for him to "STOP!!" before drawing, but he'd be down to 10 feet away by then. For some people, I'm sure that his displaying a weapon (knife, etc) would be the deciding factor and that's why I left it a mystery. Even with no weapon in his hand, if he is menacingly making a B-line right at me, I am drawing. Not aiming at him - just showing him the gun. It;s important that people key in on the word "menacingly." If he were skipping rope or playing hopscotch, things would be different....we all know a threatening look when we see it - it's instinctual. I am not a large man and would probably get brained by someone 5'11" or bigger, so to let him close in on me for a fist fight ain't in my book of options.
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Old April 21, 2005, 06:15 PM   #5
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from someone who as BTDT-bought-a-tshirt, i think that drawing down on an unarmed person simply because they look 'scary' and are walking towards you is a bad idea.
unless you are cornered with no way out, i dont think that even brandishing your weapon is going to be considered 'justifiable'. would depend on your states laws regarding the use of deadly force and whether or not you have any duty to retreat, or at least make an attempt to.
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Old April 21, 2005, 06:24 PM   #6
tjhands
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I hear ya - it's just that at that moment....in that immediate situation, for most of us here, I wonder how the scales would tip in the Law vs. Self-Preservation battle. I think most people would draw.
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Old April 21, 2005, 06:35 PM   #7
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You just can't generalize these situations as in:
--it's cool to flash your shiney pistol in this situation.
--it's NOT cool to flash your shiney pistol in this situation.

The're all different. You can try to post scenerios all you like but the "what would you do if" stuff really doesn't end up in any great answer to the question.

I guess all I mean is I'd actually have to really be in the situation to know if I'd justify any action in particular.

Generally you hear the "I won't pull it until I know I have to fire" because most people who carry on TFL like to consider themselves law abiding citizens. That, coupled with the what they teach in the classes they had to take in order to carry, make them give this response.

Not to mention the thought of knowing your taking a situation that you really do not understand yet, and turning it into a situation where at least one dude has his boom stick out. There's usually not a good result unless your banking on the bad guy crapping his pants and you having a funny story to tell your other CCW buddies.
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Old April 21, 2005, 07:37 PM   #8
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I think people say that because its the textbook answer and they think its the right thing to say. In a way they're correct, and in another way trip20 is right, ya kinda gotta be there to know if it'd help or not. Sometimes it might be the right thing to do (draw without immediately firing).

I'd rather draw without firing than the reverse. Who wants to kill? It might escalate the situation or it might just strtegically defuse it too! One time when I was a security guard and got (attacked) by some guy I basically beat the crap out of him with a PR-24 and got on the radio to have the local po po come over and take a report...he cussed at me and went for his pocket. I dropped the radio and drew my pistol, but on a 45 degt angle without pointing it at him. It turned out that he was going for his car keys instead of an AMT Backup because he didn't want to be arrested. I'm glad I didn't shoot him! Should I have waited to see what he pulled out before I drew? I think not. It could've been a pistol.

It's all situational ethics. You gotta be there to know. I'da stood a better chance, having mine drawn already if he did pull a pistol. As it turned out, no harm no foul. You just need to be able to articulate good reasons for your actions for the aftermath. No easy answer here but do what ya gotta do without crossing the wrong line.

A couple other times I put my hand on it without drawing and defused the situation. BG's know that going for the gun movement and generally stop.
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Old April 21, 2005, 08:24 PM   #9
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From a cop’s point of view, it’s my life and if I feel threatened I’m clearing leather.

Here in GA to use deadly force you must one, be in fear of death or in fear of death to another person (3rd party) or be in fear of great bodily harm to yourself or another. It’s fairly simple and straightforward, if you feel threatened and feel that a person is about to deal you death or great bodily harm it’s a deadly force situation, no one has a duty to retreat, end of story.

We are constantly debating the use of deadly force on an unarmed opponent at work and on the forums I frequent.

I’m not a big guy, I stand 6 foot tall and weigh in at 185 pound and have a wiry athletic type build, not muscular at all.

I am not going to fight anyone period, I am not paid to fight and no where in the Georgia code does it say it’s my job to take an @$$ beating just because I’m a cop.

But it does say in the Georgia code where I can use force against an unarmed attacker.

Imagine if I stop a car one night, way out in the boonies miles from any sign of backup and immediately this huge guy gets out of the car squares off on me and announces he’s going to kick my @$$, he’s 6 foot tall and weighs in at around the 250 mark.

Guess what, he’s getting one chance to stop his closure towards me then its’ straight to deadly force.

Now if someone say 5 10 about 180 pounds but clearly in good physical shape does the same, guess what…

Same ending.

Someone leads me to believe they are trained to fight, martial arts, and ultimate fighting types I’m blasting.

I am not paid to fight nor am I trained to fight beyond minimal to moderate resistance we usually encounter when arresting someone who just wants to get away from us and not go to jail.

My options are OC, Baton or Gun, but in Georgia we are not taught preclusion therefore we have no requirement to anticipate an attack an attempt to head it off nor do we have a duty to retreat, we can enter the UOFC at any point we feel is justified to stop the attack or effect the arrest.

If I feel I have time I might go to OC or a baton, if the situation is escalating at a pace where I can think clearly and react clearly if not and the situation goes to hell in a hand basket, the outcome will be entirely different.
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Old April 21, 2005, 09:12 PM   #10
FrankDrebin
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Quote:
Why do people always say......

"If I ever have to pull my gun, I'm going to use it"??
Because carrying a gun makes some people feel powerful and tactical, like the Ninja. And like the Ninja, who must draw blood when they pull their swords, the gunman who threatens to use his gun every time he pulls it out of its sheath feels even more like the Ninja.

Quote:
I am not going to fight anyone period, I am not paid to fight and no where in the Georgia code does it say it’s my job to take an @$$ beating just because I’m a cop.

But it does say in the Georgia code where I can use force against an unarmed attacker.

Imagine if I stop a car one night, way out in the boonies miles from any sign of backup and immediately this huge guy gets out of the car squares off on me and announces he’s going to kick my @$$, he’s 6 foot tall and weighs in at around the 250 mark.

Guess what, he’s getting one chance to stop his closure towards me then its’ straight to deadly force.

Now if someone say 5 10 about 180 pounds but clearly in good physical shape does the same, guess what…

Same ending.
I think you need a new line of work.
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Old April 21, 2005, 09:43 PM   #11
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"If I ever have to pull my gun, I'm going to use it"??
Why do I say that? Because I have taught myself to think that. I want to think it and believe it in my bones so deep that there will be no moment of hesitation that may cost me my life. It's a mindset.

Pulling a gun is not to be taken lightly. When you pull a gun, you are employing lethal force whether you fire it or not. Pulling a gun will either end a conflict by death or retreat, or it will escalate the conflict beyond your wildest imagination. You assume that pulling a gun will cause a retreat on the other person's part. What do you do if he pulls his gun? What do you do if he snatches a child? What do you do if he just keeps coming saying "What are you going to do now punk? Shoot an unarmed man?" for all to hear? What do you do when his buddy off to your left that you are unaware of pulls his gun and ventilates your skull?

If you have the time your scenerios present, you also have the time to take other measures. Chances are, in a real life encounter, you will have very little time. Hesitancy will get you killed. The time to hesitate is before you pull the gun. Once the gun has been pulled, you cannot put it back so easily. Your gun changes the entire dynamics of a confrontation.

That being said, if his retreat begins before my sights are aligned, he will retreat unharmed. I hope he doesn't hesitate.
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Old April 21, 2005, 10:17 PM   #12
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Why do people always say......
"If I ever have to pull my gun, I'm going to use it"??
First, people don't always say this, but many do. Missing from the quote is context. By "use it," do they mean that it will be used at least as a show of force/power, or do they mean they will be shooting it?

Of the folks I have heard say this, they meant discharging the gun.

The sentiment expressed in the quote seems to represent a sense of false bravado (the ninja feelings thing FrankDrebin mentioned). It also seems to represent something of situational ignorance. Obviously, guns do not need to be discharged in all cases where they are drawn.

XavierBreath said he goes by that plan so as to teach himself to be able to administer shots without hesitation. This is a pretty good consideration as you don't want to hesitate at a time when time is critical and winning or losing separated by fractions of seconds. As noted, drawing should not be taken lightly. He mentioned that whether or not the gun is fired, it is a use of lethal force. Technically, that is not correct. Drawing a gun only signifies a threat of lethal force. Lethal force does not occur until the force is actually applied. Lethal force s defined as
Quote:
We also hold that in this circuit “deadly force” has the same meaning as it does in the other circuits that have defined the term, a definition that finds its origin in the Model Penal Code. We define deadly force as force that creates a substantial risk of causing death or serious bodily injury.
Drawing alone simply does not constitute lethal force and drawing does not create a substanital risk of causing death or severe bodily injury.

If drawing did consitute use of lethal force, then depending on circumstances, you could be put on trial for attempted murder. Since it is not lethal force to draw a gun, then you won't be charged with a lethal force crime for simply drawing the gun.
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Old April 21, 2005, 10:48 PM   #13
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Thank you for the correction DNS. I guess that's another thing that I have cemented in my brain, albeit incorrectly....to help me make that jump.

I guess what I am saying is there are many ways to end an unpleasant social situation. Guns should be reserved for saving your life. If your life is saved because he retreated, or because you fired it is still the same reason you drew it. Guns should not be used to end unpleasant or frightening encounters.

Scenerio #1. Yes, get 911 on the line, and take cover. When he breaches your door, do what you have to do to save your life. If you show your gun, how do you know he will not leave, go around the block and then come take you out with a rifle from across the street? You are now at a disadvantage because he knows your plan.

Scenerio #2. get a car between you and the BG while you assess the situation and find the friend or two he is sure to have along for the ride. Chances are you are being herded. Cars are great barriers. If you are taken in a parking lot, it is by surprise or because you did not use obstacles to your favor. If you pull your gun when you are unaware of BG#2, then there is a high probability you will loose your gun when he takes you from behind and by surprise. BG#1 is just there to draw your attention while BG#2 pops you from behind with a pipe.

Bad guys who cannot succeed at life win because they have a plan, while the victim does not. The BG depends on you following thier plan. When you pull a gun but do not shoot, you are still following that plan.

Enough, I'll hush before I get flamed. I agree that no scenerio can be analyzed hypothetically. You can "what if" yourself to death. I know the costs of taking a life. They are not to be taken lightly. I also know the value of saving your own life. That scale may be balanced by any person who lives, whether they carry a weapon or not. It's not a matter of using the gun. It's a matter of saving your life.
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Old April 21, 2005, 11:11 PM   #14
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Like the ninja? I laughed out loud.

yeah kind of but I think its really the philosophy. Because pulling a gun can really escalate a situation, you dont want to do it unless you have to. If you are correct in determining that you have to when you pull it, then the same threat that caused you to pull it should also be a threat that justifies using it.

Maybe a better rule is "if I pull my gun, Im planning to use it, unless sometime between me pulling the gun, and thereafter firing, I am given reason to believe that I no longer need to fire. Something changed from before drawing and after drawing, that makes the plan to shoot, no longer supportable. This goes the same for between shots.
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Old April 21, 2005, 11:19 PM   #15
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Let's get back to the base scenarios.

1: Doorbell & Mr. Nasty being abnoxious at my door. Perhaps pounding and kicking it. I won't display anything until he either approaches a window or manages to force the door. By that time, hopefully, my 1911 has covered my retreat to the bedroom to fetch the 12gauge. That is what I want him to see -- not me holding something like a .25 caliber mouse gun.

2: Parking lot intercept. I too have BTDT and got the T-shirt. Now I'll have to break with most opinions here and say something different.

Carrying in a public place does several things. But I think the most important one is that it allows you to look a potential perp in the eye with the look of the hunter, not the prey. I've noticed that when I'm carrying I tend to watch potential threats and look them in the eye more so that when I'm unarmed. This is tantamount to yelling "I see you, dirtbag, and I'm not letting my guard down!" and they can see it. I have no doubt that this alone has caused several losers to seek easier victims.

In a parking lot scenario, I'll change my direction to see if the perp also changes to intercept. At that stage, if he does, the body turns the strong side hip away from him, right foot back, knees flexed, hand starting the reach while the offhand starts low, palm out and rises with my voice commanding "Stay back!" If he continues to advance in a meanacing fashion, I'll likely move back just a tad before using him as a JHP test target.
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Old April 21, 2005, 11:49 PM   #16
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When I say "I am going to use it" what I mean is "I am READY to use it".

Simply, I am not afraid to pull the trigger if need be. If the situation is resolved by the draw, then so be it. But if the BG makes an advance or I feel threatend by his movements, I know my finger won't hesitate to make decisions.

It's not that I want to kill, I am merely prepared to do so.

That's all.
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Old April 22, 2005, 04:57 AM   #17
JSandi
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I think you need a new line of work.
No sir,

I have a firm understanding of the law and I have been schooled in many different courses, in applicable case law where unarmed attackers have been shot and killed by LEO’s where the situation was ruled justified.

See whether you might agree with it or not every call we go on is a gun call, why?

Because we bring the gun to the call, every single time.

The courts, more specifically the USSC has acknowledged time and time again that the only reason a person would attack a LEO is to do them harm, possibly great bodily harm and that the LEO can only act based on the facts known to them at the time, which does not include the knowledge of just how much harm this person may or may not intend to do and physical size disparities are always factors which can and do lead to people being in reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death.

And by doing so, if I allow the attack to go on, against an attacker which I know I cannot physically "take" there is the very real and great risk I will loose control of my weapon.

To believe otherwise is outright stupid.

In Georgia assualt is defined as “when one person places another in reasonable apprehension of immediate bodily injury. A mere threat of harm is insufficient to support an assault charge. A threat combined with the apparent present ability of a defendant to actually carry out the threat is necessary. The victim must reasonably believe that he is in danger of receiving immediate bodily injury.”

Size is a factor here.

Aggravated assault, “when an assault is committed one of three ways: 1) with intent to murder, rape or rob; 2) with a deadly weapon (includes any instrument which, when used against a person is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury) or 3) by discharge of a firearm from within a motor vehicle toward a person or people.”

This also includes hands and fists or other bodily instruments, you can't reasonably argue that the hands and fists of somone the size of Lou Ferrigno are not deadly weapons.

OCGA 17-4-20(b) “Sheriffs and peace officers who are appointed or employed in conformity with Chapter 8 of Title 35 may use deadly force to apprehend a suspected felon only when the officer reasonably believes that the suspect possesses a deadly weapon or any object, device, or instrument which, when used offensively against a person, is likely to or actually does result in serious bodily injury; when the officer reasonably believes that the suspect poses an immediate threat of physical violence to the officer or others; or when there is probable cause to believe that the suspect has committed a crime involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical harm.”


This is not a blanket license to kill but a necessary tool that must exist to allow us to be able to effectively do our job, the courts thankfully understand that not all cops can be the size of some steroidal monster or have the fighting capability of Bruce Lee and that we must have the assurances necessary to effect any arrest which must be carried out.

This is why the FBI created the use of force continuum and the Courts have adopted its model and apply it to all cases involving deadly force, especially in LE.

This model allows us to go at a minimum one step above the level of force being used to overcome any resistance to effect a arrest, but it also does not limit us in our ability to enter this continuum at any point we feel is necessary, hence we can go straight from verbal encounter to deadly force without having to stop along the way if we feel our life or safety is in jeopardy.
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Old April 22, 2005, 05:26 AM   #18
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No sir,

I have a firm understanding of the law and I have been schooled in many different courses, in applicable case law where unarmed attackers have been shot and killed by LEO’s where the situation was ruled justified.
Doesn't matter what the law says. If I'd have shot every person that I was legally justified in shooting, I'd have killed more than a dozen people by now. I didn't say I thought you needed a new line of work because you didn't know what the law was. I said I thought you needed a new line of work because I don't think cops should be so ready to shoot unarmed people who say they're going to kick a cop's ass and don't stop in their tracks the first time the cops says "stop". What happens if some guy who is bigger than you sucker punches you at a bar fight? You're just going to shoot him in the chest?
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Old April 22, 2005, 08:29 AM   #19
tjhands
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I'm no expert on the law, but just from a logical standpoint, it seems very reasonable to me that if an officer yells "STOP!" at a man who has just verbally threatened him with bodily injury ("I'm gonna kick your ass, you pig!") and is approaching the officer to do just that, the cop has a perfect right to shoot him dead. This is (at least morally) a no-brainer. As far as the law goes, well, the law and morals are seldom found in bed together anyway.

You just don't physically threaten a cop and not expect to take the dirt nap.

Back to my scenarios.........

In #1, I would still do the same exact thing. Y'all can run around dialing numbers while a maniac tears his way into your castle, your belongings, and your wife if you want to; I'm showing him that there are easier targets to be had. In that situation, 99 times out of 100, he will turn and flee, never to be heard of again. Those are damn nice odds, and they're the ones I'd be going with. In that split second, I don't have time and wits enough to think, "wait! what if he has a friend hiding with a rifle trained on my window?" or other crazy ideas like that. I'm addressing the IMMEDIATE situation. In a situation like this one, to think about things other than Mr. Nasty getting ready to level your door, kill you and your family and rob the castle, is just insane. Easy targets is what they are after. People with .45's and 00 buck shot aren't easy targets. I'm going with the odds here. This one is getting way too "what-if'd" by people. It's easy to sit at the keyboard and dream up possibilities of his friend sitting across the street with crosshairs on your chest, or the guy leaving but then coming back later, or that you are on Punk'd or Scare Tactics or something, but I still believe that most of us would not think like that when the time comes. In the moment of attack, all planning and thinking would be abandoned. It's not TFL forums anymore. Now it's innate. It's primal. We'd counter his threat with one of our own, and in all liklihood, that'd be the end of it.

#2 has too many variables to get people to commit to an answer as to what they think they'd do. I'll let that one go, but in #1.....I'm sticking to my guns.
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Old April 22, 2005, 08:56 AM   #20
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What happens if some guy who is bigger than you sucker punches you at a bar fight? You're just going to shoot him in the chest?
I guess the sucker punch would be free (except for that little assault charge), but I won't take a second one. There is a big difference between a single, unexpected punch and a committed sustained attack. It all boils down to "ending the threat". If the SOB is content that he "got you" with the sucker punch and has no intent to continue the assault, then the threat is over. Put your ego in your pocket and let the legal system do its job.

As a teacher in a juvenile correctional institution, I was assaulted once. The lad was not happy with his test, stood up, picked up his desk and threw it at me from 20 feet. I saw it coming, was in a swivel chair and praise the Lord he threw straight with no spin and I caught it. He was not in my face and beating on me, so I put the desk down and informed the security staff. It would not have justified my going to the student and applying any type of force. He did pick up a second desk, but by this time staff was there and I easily stepped aside and let it hit the wall (he threw hard and shattered the desk). Staff was able to restrain him at that point.

Had he come over to me and started attacking me directly, I would have been justified in using any force necessary to stop his attack. True this was in a situation where no "weapon" was availible, but if I had to break his scrawny neck to stop him, it would still be justified.

Back to the above situation in the bar. (I don't go in bars.) For someone to get the chance to hit me, it's going to have to be a sucker punch or an attack without warning. One punch can do significant bodily harm and I am not legally required to take an @$$ whippin' just because he didn't mean "to really hurt me". ("I was just funnin' ya!")

If a fella says he's going to kick my @$$ and doesn't stop, I'm not going to let him have the chance.
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Old April 22, 2005, 10:02 AM   #21
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I would still do the same exact thing. Y'all can run around dialing numbers while a maniac tears his way into your castle, your belongings, and your wife if you want to; I'm showing him that there are easier targets to be had. In that situation, 99 times out of 100, he will turn and flee, never to be heard of again. Those are damn nice odds, and they're the ones I'd be going with.
On Scenerio #1, I'm not saying not to use lethal force. I am saying not to tip your hand until you must. Doing otherwise can open up a whole realm of possibilities. Yes, chances are he will leave. If he is intent on doing you harm, he will find a better time and place, when you are less prepared. If he is on drugs or drunk, he may very well continue the assault on your door anyway. If he is an enraged relative, or suicidal, he may continue the assault on your door. Someone who is assaulting your door with force is not behaving rationally, they are enraged. Showing them a firearm is not likely to suddenly make them rational. If anything it will escalate the rage.

If he breaks down your door and enters, you are justified in dropping him on the spot where I live. You will likely not even be taken in for questioning. You will loose your gun to the evidence locker until the case is closed. You will have to clean up a bit.

If you show your gun and he leaves and calls the police, giving them a description of your gun and yourself as well as your address and saying he mistakenly approached your home and you brandished a weapon on your front porch, you are going to be doing some explaining. You may go to court on false charges. You may loose your weapon and your right to carry. It's his word against yours, and he made the complaint. Don't expect him to be truthful or a gentleman about it.

Every situation is different, but I cannot think of a generalized scenerio where tipping your hand would be in your favor.
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Old April 22, 2005, 10:36 AM   #22
Duxman
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Drawing and Justifications

I agree with most of the logic in these posts: Don't draw your weapon until your life is in immediate danger. Otherwise you could be in worse trouble. There are many options avaliable to you - if they are practical - take them instead - retreat, evasion, HTH combat. But if you must....

Here are my inputs on the 2 scenarios:

1) At home vs BG - Well first I wouldn't look through window, I would turn off my interior lighting and turn off exterior lighting and try my peephole. If he threatens, I will retreat from doorway take cover, and tell him I am armed. Never breaking eye contact with entry points. (At this point weapon would be drawn and pointed at doorway. No shooting through the door or anything like that - too dangerous. Would call 911 if phone was next to me. But if I had to go to next room to get it, no way. Keep entranceway(s) covered.

Turning interior lights off definitely gives you an advantage over BG as you know the layout of your home. Also as the outside light is on, he would be perfectly silhouetted target as he broke in.

2) Parking lot vs BG - No way I draw here. I would stop, look at avenues of retreat, and / or additional threats (peripheral vision) , and not break eye contact with BG. Verbal warning if he continues to approach. Act accordingly as scenario unfolds. No way do I draw unless he has a visible weapon.

But if I were to draw - then I would use weapon (unless he made a hasty retreat as the weapon was being displayed.)
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Old April 22, 2005, 10:55 AM   #23
pangris
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Brandishing can cause alot of problems. If I have to draw it is coming up to the target with a high probablity of me planning to fire upon a good sight picture. IMMEDIATE compliance might prevent that, but for me, the point at which I am drawing, my life or a loved one's life is in danger.
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Old April 22, 2005, 11:36 AM   #24
stephen426
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I too have wondered about the statement "If I draw my gun, I'm going to use it." I know that there will be situations where lethal force is justified but that for me would be a last resort.

Secnatio 1: If someone is pounding on the door, I will announce in a loud voice that I have a gun and will shoot him if he comes in. This will stop any opportunistic criminals and send them packing. If the person does not stop the attack, then there will be no choice but to shoot him if he comes in. I normally have my cell phone on me so I will be calling the cops and moving towards cover after I make the announcement. As for retrieving a more powerful weapon, I think this is a bad idea since the intruder may already have forced his way into your house by the time you retrieve it and may be on top of you before you have time to get it into play.

Scenario 2: This is a little more questionable since your scenario is somewhat vague. If you are in a bad area and there are few people around, then he may be targeting you. If not then you are illegally brandishing and potentially escalating the situation. I would give the guy a good look in the eye as someone else mentioned and "adjust" my gun so he knows I am armed. If it appears he is holding a weapon when he is approaching and is within 20 feet I will draw and keep the gun at the low ready position.

I am not eager to shoot anyone but I will shoot if I have to. If the bad guy runs away or backs down, then the situation has been resolved. It is not my right to remove these scumbags from the planet, as much as I would like to. I imagine my life would also be much more complicated if I didn't have to go through the whole explanation of why I shot the person to the police and the whole civil suit from the scumbag's family.

I have also given much though to less than lethal responses such as pepper spray. There have been quite a few threads lately and the stuff from Fox Labs seems to be the best stuff out there. I have also given serious thought to installing a Lasermax spring guide replacement laser that may cause a bad guy to seriously reconsider his actions. What are your thoughts on this?
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Old April 22, 2005, 11:42 AM   #25
vidme
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I"ve had men at gun point 4x. Only once were cops called

and then he lost the debate, anyway. You billy bad ones can take on men with your bare hands( and maybe get your own gun used on you). I"ll draw the gun, and then if he's so crazy-desperate to make me fire, so be it.
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