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Old April 6, 2005, 04:08 PM   #26
skidmark
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Officer Friendly & I finally connected a few minutes ago. Our hero told the magistrate that he woulds never make the pretrial hearing (1100 this AM) so was held w/o bond for pretrial. The judge has him held w/o bond till trial 5/25. My assaukt charge + five (5) other warrants. I'm off to see the Magistrate to see how I can access the records.

FWIW, my six will be so well watched it will shine. My 3, 9 and 12 will also be glowing as I brush past them. I'm thinking about getting a motion-sensor alarm to put in the car, but right now my mind says "who cares" unless I'm in it.

stay safe.

skidmark
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Old April 6, 2005, 04:28 PM   #27
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lots of good reading and thinking ideas.........

I still give you an (A) for your ability. Some points are worth rereading above too. I know as days go by your thoughts of this event will come and go. It takes some real balls to do what you did and nothing wrong with it. I would likely have done a few things different but I wasn't there and it isn't fair to try to guess the total flavor of the moment with out having lived it. You do need to take an extra second to insure your environment when coming and going.
I still think situation dictates reaction. Text book this -and training that -are nice to have in the back of your mind. Knowlege is power and so is thinking on your feet at a drop of the hat. That said I would rather have a edge more of brain smarts than book smarts. Knock on wood it's kept me alive a few times in the past....

Take care and becareful out there
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Old April 6, 2005, 04:58 PM   #28
FrankDrebin
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Only two things I see: Telling them what to do instead of asking at first, and staying in that neighborhood if you're still there. You're only going to get grief in that place.
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Old April 6, 2005, 09:24 PM   #29
skidmark
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FrankDrebin wrote "Only two things I see: Telling them what to do instead of asking at first, and staying in that neighborhood if you're still there. You're only going to get grief in that place."

Frank, I agree that rolling up & commanding some drunken stranger to do whatever I say is not tactically cool. But please read my original post. I "asked". I've gone over that several times in my head today. I am sure I "asked" as opposed to "told" them to move.

As for staying in the neighborhood - I need to say I'm getting a bit cranky about being told the thing to do is move away instead of standing my ground. I've taken what I consider to be reasonable precautions and hardened my defenses. 24 hours later there are no thugs outside my place challenging me to step outside, and whikle I was away today nobody busted out any windown or otherwise trashed my apartment.

I'm not trying to be a hero, and I certainly do not want to "protect" my lasndlord's property - unless he wants to pay me my current hourly rate of pay and will front the recertification as a security guard. I am not and do not want to be the sheepdog for the rest of the neighborhood. But last night I decided that I wasa not going to allow thise persons to stand between me and my door and delay/prevent me from going into my home.

If it happens again tomorrow I will have to decide all over again. Situational awareness and scene assessment will guide me in whatever I do. Just because I got away with it yesterday does not mean I will get away with it again tomorrow. I know that.

stay safe.

skidmark
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Old April 6, 2005, 09:48 PM   #30
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I probably would have kept my mouth shut, but that's really more of a comment on my personality than an indictment of your actions.

I think that it was probably a good thing overall to comment to them. Although it MAY have generated a situation, it's not 100% sure that the situation might not have come about anyway.

Besides, it's good for people like you encountered to know that they do not live in a vacuum and that they can not simply do as they please without consequences. Teaching them the lesson is not an easy thing to do, but it is something that SHOULD be done.

I also agree with you about not moving. My father got into a similar situation years ago in his neighborhood when it began to go downhill. He could have moved, but that's not the kind of man he is. He visited every neighbor and spoke with them about the problems. He got their agreement to help him report problems to the police rather than ignore them. They ended up taking one of the more problematic persons in the area to court before it was over. It was hard at first, but over time, the neighborhood was much improved and the troublemakers moved instead.

At some point, we have to make a stand. If we simply move when things get bad, the scum win a small victory, but more importantly we leave behind the people who can't move. Elderly/retired people and the financially strapped can't always just pick up and move when a neighborhood degrades. They can end up trapped in a bad situation that only gets worse when everyone else deserts them.
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Old April 6, 2005, 10:20 PM   #31
Dwight55
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Personally, . . . gotta hand it to you, . . . you did a lot better than I probably would have.

About the time he came around the car (after I would have told him to stay on the other side, . . . and then a second time told him to back off), . . . he would have seen the business end of a 1911 leveled at the second button on his shirt and I would have been screaming, . . . don't make me shoot you.

And if he continued, . . . well.................

I don't have the stamina or repairability at my age to tussel with hoodlums, . . . ask nice, . . . warn, . . . warn a 2nd time, . . . get ready to get down to business is my plan.

Good job, you did.

May God bless,
Dwight
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Old April 7, 2005, 12:42 AM   #32
Hayley
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Skidmark: it is to your credit that you care enough to solicit opinions, and sort-out the situation you found yourself in...and to take them in the constructive spirit they are offered.

I'll defer to XavierBreath's remarks, which are more clear than mine. It was late, and in reading your post, I just thought of my personal rule of thumb--to act as if I was unarmed; to wit, I don't do anything while carrying that I wouldn't do unarmed. I didn't mean necessarily that you did anything wrong, just to use that as a frame of reference to reflect on what happened.

In any case, I hope none of us has any difficulty justifying our actions if ever we are called to account for using deadly force.
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Old April 7, 2005, 06:13 AM   #33
FrankDrebin
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As I got out of the car - hand on CCW in right front pocket & the car between me & them - I casually asked them to put the bottle away or take it inside, as there had been problems with litter.
You didn't ask them to get away from your door so you could get in, you asked them to put away their bottle, etc. What does their drinking have to do with litter? You implied that you assumed that they were going to throw their bottle on the ground when they were done with it. You pretty much insulted them, and respect is very important to young street "gentelmen" who alread have a sense of entitlement to respect ("you owe me respect because I'm a man") and feel disenfranchised enough as it is. In other words, you "stepped on their manhood", or at least of of their "manhoods". You pretty much blatantly accused them of being "litterers". They likely were, but that probably wasn't a good way to win friend and influence them.

As the other guy mentioned, I probably would have asked them if you could get into your apt. and not made any remarks at all about their drinking or their bottle.

If the neighborhood is declining, as I inferred it is from you post, I doubt if you're going to change the quality of the neighborhood by staying, or even delay its decline significantly, but if you decide to stay, I suggest you carry the phone number of a good lawyer. Also, the stress of living there will take time off of your life.
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Old April 7, 2005, 09:47 AM   #34
skidmark
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First the news -

Got the info on our hero. He has not been a good person lately:
Trespass
Destroy property/monument (as in cemetary)
Petit Larceny
Concealed weapon - I checked on this -- it was a boxcutter (comments later)
Capias FTA
Assault & Battery (my incident)
Drive on suspended license
Drive on suspended license (a second charge? )
Operate uninsured vehicle
Operate uninsured vehicle (another second charge?? )
Drive on suspended license (no - a third time? )
Expired registration
Misdemeanor FTA

3 felony charges (#2., 4 & 5 above), plus #13 is a Class 1 Misdemeanor which is for all intents & purposes a felony.

Now the comment about the concealed weapon charge/boxcutter --
Again, I admit I got lucky. All I can say is keep your eyes open & learn what to focus on & what not to bother with right then. For me, once I saw the hands were empty my focus was more on his shoulders than the hands themselves.

I think I'm going to ask that this thread be closed now. I thank everybody for their constructive critiqes of my tactical and not-so-tactical behaviors under the circumstances trhat I described. I appreciate all of the wishes for my continued good health and desires that my living siutuation be in a place of peace and tranquility. I ask that you respect my decision, based on current circumstances and my personal thoughts/values, to stay as opposed to moving away.

stay safe.

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Old April 7, 2005, 10:12 AM   #35
GUNSMOKE45441
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Skidmark
Congratulations, I think you did just fine, if everyone runs away there will never be an end what the BGS think they can get away with.
Rather than come back to mess with you these cowards will probably spread the word that this is not a good place to be. WELL DONE!!!!!
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Old April 8, 2005, 10:41 PM   #36
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It sound like you did the right thing. I have a friend who is a cop and asked him about CCW and police. He said the best thing to do is tell the officer and show your CCW liscense. Don't worry about the past and how the situation was handled. This wise ass seems like a trouble maker. So I would be prepared. With 6 of his hoodlum buddies you may consider a high capacity magazine. I would put effort into planning for a home invasion once this guy gets out of jail. The motion detector idea is great. I put one at the top of my steps to my bedroom incase someone tries to sneak in while I am asleep. Keep a cell phone (charging by your bed) and a flashlight and light stick by the bed also. The light stick can be placed in your window for the police to see easily after 911 is dialed.
I would employ the wait tecnique. If the alarm goes off. Grap your weapon (HK usp 40) 13 round mag. Roll off the bed grap the shotgun and wait for the human to enter your sight


"See you on the flip side" Boondock Saints

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Old April 9, 2005, 11:38 AM   #37
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When I'm setting up a home for interior defense for a client I put motion sensor lights in every room except the bedroom. The theory is that there is light wherever there is a human, but the principals in the house are in the dark.

Once, back quite a few years ago. I would be awakened at about 23:00 each night by the light in the living room turning on. After the second or third false alarm, I set watch at the end of the hallway. At about te right time, I heard a movement in the kitchen. Then the light in the living room turned on and I saw my big tom cat coming down the hallway. He would come in the cat door, jump up on the end table where the motion sensor was mounted and jump down in front of it, triggering the light. I moved the sensor. He was disappointed.

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Old April 12, 2005, 04:53 AM   #38
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Cheers,

I know that you asked for this thread to be stopped - but it wasn't - so here I go!

I had a "similar" situation, happen years ago - and I handled it totally differently than you - yours' was the BETTER way.

I confronted them (gang members) and displayed my weapon - stating that I had 14 rounds, plus another clip in my pocket.

"Big boy" stated "I don't have a gun" - I responded "You will when the cops get here". He really had one, it was just "hidden" so I couldn't see it. At that point, with the crime in the neighborhood - I didn't care if he had one or not. HE would go down - weapon in hand!!!

I have taken "life" - it's tough, but you'll survive it!

I wouldn't do that scenario(sp?) again, but back then - yea, I'd have "popped" the dude.

Maybe it's just me, but the times I've "shot to kill" - I was talking to the people on the ground, and I don't have any problems with what I did or what I experienced. To me, it carries forward.

"Sorry dude - you feel "dis'ed" - well my Smith doesn't care WHAT you feel! I "point" - you're dead!" YOUR call.

Mama used to tell me that "violence doesn't solve anything" - well, Mama LIED! I found that out in Nam, Rhodesia, Ache - everywhere else in the world you want to look! "Violence" works!" Make it work for YOU!

If you can keep from starting it - then "Good on ya" - but don't plan on it! "Hope for the best, plan for the worst".

"Two feet - DEAD dude! Sorry Skid - that's just the way it is.

Your way was/is better - I just worry about "later" - when he gets "free" - you gonna feel better when he's around and p*ssed?

"Bang - dead" - works for me!

cr
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Old April 12, 2005, 09:32 AM   #39
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crashresidue,

Know what you mean. Been there, done some of that, and have patched the holes in the souvenier t-shirt a time or two.

I know the risks I was taking, and was probably more stupid that anyone has called me for taking them. Especially on the let-him-get-up-in-my-face issue.

But I ask you (and everyone else) - what do you do about a guy in your face, talking loud and waving his hands in the air, if he has not yet made a verbal threat and you do not see his position or hand-waving as threatening gestures? I told the guy to back off or get sprayed. He backed off. I got lucky.

FYI - tonight will be 1 week, and all that I have had happen so far is 2 neighbors coming over as I was out of the car, to say "thanks" and to talk about the fact that since the encounter there have been no people hanging out on the corner after dark.

If, and when, the BG gets out of jail I will deal with whatever happens as it happens. In the past week I have put in a bit more range time, and a few extra practice sessions on drawing from concealment, from sitting in front of the TV, from laying in bed, and from getting into & out of the car. I'll also put in a shameless plug for the two different brands of laser trainers I have. Using them saves on ammo and at least once on the cost of replacing a car window.

stay safe.

skidmark
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Old April 12, 2005, 02:38 PM   #40
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Confrontations

Crash, I agree. You could've handled that much better. Was there any dialogue before you started brandishing a weapon? Why not be tactful instead of straight-up threatening? Your Mom was right: violence never solved anything. Do you think this guys friends will ever forget you if you gun their buddy down? Violence begets violence. Just look at the Middle East.
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Old April 12, 2005, 05:52 PM   #41
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It's hard in some situations to tell how you are going to act/react unless you are there. I know this better than anybody. I am obviously on your side here because you are not the BG. Those guys were probably nothing more than a bunch of bottom-feeders. God knows, I live around enough of those pathetic wastes of life here in Alexandria. They are always out on the street from about 8 PM to 3 AM with their loud ghetto-babes "hooting" and "screeching" trying to attract attention. More times than not they WANT you to start trouble with them. I deal with this crap everyday of the week. I hate it.

The situation is done & over. You came out on-top. Good for you. The only thing that I would be wary of in your situation is provoking someone who is obviously wanting you to say something to them so that they can pounce. They don't listen to the cops, so it is doubtful that they would listen to anyone else. Some people are always looking for a fight.

Be safe....

JR
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Old April 19, 2005, 05:51 AM   #42
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Everything sounds good to me - except that 2 feet is too close. Even if you weigh 250 and your hero weighed 105 - it is too close. He could have stuck you with a knife or pulled some other surprize on you at that distance.

But, you took what was one of several calculated risks by letting him do so - and it paid off for you in the end. You could have sprayed him before that, and risked his friends saying - swearing in court - that "that's not how it all happened". Or you could have retreated at the risk of creating some some distance between you and your SO which I personally would have rejected at all costs.
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Old May 26, 2005, 03:00 PM   #43
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You are watching too many Charles Bronson movies, what you did is vigilantism. Its your life, if you can live with the consequences and not harm innocent civilians, thats on you. That gun you carry is to protect you when danger comes after you, not when you provoke it, which you clearly did. If you want to fight crime, become a LEO and do it the right way.
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Old May 26, 2005, 08:45 PM   #44
skidmark
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please tell me why you see me as a vigilante

Quote:
You are watching too many Charles Bronson movies, what you did is vigilantism. Its your life, if you can live with the consequences and not harm innocent civilians, thats on you. That gun you carry is to protect you when danger comes after you, not when you provoke it, which you clearly did. If you want to fight crime, become a LEO and do it the right way.
PythonGuy,

Please explain how you 1) define what I did as vigilantism, and 2) how you feel I provoked the incident. I am seriously and earnestly requesting information in order to review what happened and see what I might need to do better/differently in the future.

However, there are "exceptions" I need to let you know exist in the equation. They are that I believe that the castle doctrine extends to my ability to enter and/or leave my dwelling in peace, that permitting bad behavior only invites more bad behavior, and that if someone wants to take exception to anything I say to the point of a direct threat against my life I will believe them fully and respond based on that belief.

That being said, please explain to this confused person how you come to see me as a vigilante and an imitaror of Charles Bronson in any of his "Death Wish #x" movies. If you can convince me, or at least make me look closer at the possibility, I will benefit from your words.

stay safe.

skidmark
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Old May 27, 2005, 12:52 PM   #45
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You are watching too many Charles Bronson movies, what you did is vigilantism.
Now, c'mon. That's downright silly. All he did was ask a bunch of hooligans to take their illegal drinking elsewhere. And skidmark is right - if he tolerates little insults, he'll find far greater ones will follow. skidmark didn't look for trouble; trouble came a-knockin'.

skidmark, FWIW, again, aside from letting "our hero" close to two feet, I give ya an A. Your neighborhood is a better place with you in it. With that in mind, stay safe!

God bless.
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Old May 27, 2005, 05:17 PM   #46
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Skidmark (horrible nick by the way is not a cop, but he can carry a gun. If his life is threathened he can protect himself, to go around and tell punks they should get rid of their drinks crosses the line. HE should have called the cops, he got lucky this time, but they all know him now and if he wins a battle and loses the war is it worth it? Is his life worth it? If it is to him, cool, he's a big boy and can take care of himself, I just think he is looking for trouble. Now if they broke into his house with him there armed and he defended himself, that is a different story. You Dirty Harry's do what you want, common sense should be your guide. One poster said it perfectly, he should do what he would do if he were NOT carrying a gun, thats excellent logic.
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Old May 28, 2005, 05:34 AM   #47
skidmark
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well, excuuuuuse me.

Quote:
If his life is threathened he can protect himself, to go around and tell punks they should get rid of their drinks crosses the line.
I'll give you some slack and agree, for the sake of discussion, that telling young thugs they ought to behave like civilized individuals when they dispose of their empty beverage containers may be risky. But as you also said, I'm a big boy and can decide to live with the consequences of my own behavior.

I am so flabbergasted I can't even begin to work out a connection from "telling punks they should get rid of their drinks" to "vigilantism."

Not to mention you have misread my post - I never told them to get rid of their drinks. I asked them to dispose of their empties, when they got to be empties, somewhere besides on the lawn or in the parking lot.

I guess my REAL crime was that I asked them to be something they were and may never be - members of society. I should have understood that any indication on my part of disagreement or non-support for their non-conforming behavior is morally, logically, legally and tactically inappropriate, and should have retreated and waited until they were through hanging about in front of my front door before even thinking about going into my home.

I guess the problem is that of all the nationalities that make up my family history, I just never had any relatives that were French. (My apologies to most of the folks who live in France, but you are the stereotype of the day for spineless collaborators.) Or maybe the problem is that I have learned, through many courses taken at the College of Hard Knocks, that whatever level of wrong you tolerate only supports the next level of wrong being done (give them an inch, they'll take a mile).

How about this as an alternate scenario: I come home & see the same scence at the beginning. I ask them to step away from in front of my door and properly dispose of their bottles when they get finished drinking. They step away, although in varying levels of volume muttering and cussiong about that #^(*&$$#@@!$ honky old fat man telling them what to do. Nobody threatens anybody with physical violence, nobody assaults anybody with fists or bottles, and the whole thing is over. As I see it, my behavior has not changed at all. The only change is their response to me.

PythonGuy, I wonder why I am expending energy & bandwidth trying to explain this to you.

stay safe.

skidmark

Quote:
Skidmark (horrible nick by the way
This from someone whose nickname is PythonGuy? What's that saying about the pot & the kettle?
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Old May 28, 2005, 10:58 AM   #48
Edward429451
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If that was vigilantism then I suppose the punks were performing a public service by drinking on the street and not drinking and driving.

OTOH, I wouldn't have confronted 6 punks in that authoritive manner as it would be likely to provoke them. Did you expect them to give you a yes sir and comply knowing that 6 punks carry pack mentality and make them act more hostile than if they were alone?

I give you an A for attitude, and a B for execution. You could have handled it better. Now you have to watch your 6 moreso than usual.
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Old May 28, 2005, 12:23 PM   #49
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Sorry, forgot you are a hero, carry on, I'll stick to the gun portion of the forums. Go watch your six, or whatever else it is you gunslingers do.

Last edited by PythonGuy; May 28, 2005 at 04:49 PM.
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Old June 2, 2005, 12:11 PM   #50
PythonGuy
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I tried to edit my posts on this, I don't mean to get on Skid personally, because I believe he is a sincere, honest person. I do believe pulling a gun is the absolute last resort when your life is in imminent danger, not to be used for anything less. But thats just my opinion and has no more weight then skid's or others on here. If a Mod can edit my previous posts on this thread please do so. Skid, I hope you stay safe and well.

Last edited by PythonGuy; June 2, 2005 at 07:58 PM.
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