The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old April 5, 2005, 09:26 PM   #1
skidmark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: Richmond VA - home of a street full of second-place trophies.
Posts: 151
please critique me

I also posted this on THR, but I'm open to feedback from anyone.

please critique me

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

After-action report - not a full 30 minutes ago it all ended. I know I made several mistakes. I need to hear from you all so I can see them better than through the currest forest I'm in.

Rolled up to my apartment after dinner with the SO. A bunch (4 - 6, not sure of them all as individuals but keeping "the group" together in my conscienceness) clusted on the walk/parking area in front of my door. Drinking, passing the bottle back & forth. As I got out of the car - hand on CCW in right front pocket & the car between me & them - I casually asked them to put the bottle away or take it inside, as there had been problems with litter.

All appeared to be polite and agreed to put the bottle down on the grass. A few "I'm sorry, man, didn't mean to disrespect you" statements offered my way. Then our young hero steps forth to ask me if he could use my phone to call his ride. I told him I would be glad to call for him but he could not use my phone. He is about 15 feet away and still the car between me & the group. My hand still casually in the pocket.

Our hero begins to cuss (mildly for the type -- sorry if it sounds like a stereotype but around here I hear mose cussing than actual conversation) and advance around the car, asking why I'm disrespecting him. SAs he begins to walk towards me I tell him (think verbal command voice without escalation of volume or lowering of tone) "stay on that side of the car." As he continues to slowly work his way around the car I tell him "back off."

He is now at contact distance - about 2 feet - and cussing at me without raising his voice. My right hand is still in the front pocket on the CCW, which I have now slipped loose in the FIST holster. My left hand goes to the pepperspray and I palm that while telling him to back off or I will spray him.

As he is backing up he starts making verbal threats to beat me, that he will come back later tonight to settle this with me, and then lets loose the deal-maker - "I'll kill you! See if I don't." As he turns onto the street he heaves the bottle at me. I easilly slip left and all he does is put a small dent in the front quarterpanel. (It's a 95 Chevy Corsica with 200K+ - what do I care?)

As our hero moves off the rest of the crowd disperses. I keep my eyes open and check 6 from all sides with nobody to be seen except our hero going east and everybody else heading west..

A he is now more than 25 feet away and retreating down the street, I let go of the pepperspray and pull out the cell phone to call 9-1-1. I tell them I was verbally assaulted, had a bottle thrown at me, and that the assailant threatened me with bodily harm and threatened to kill me. Yes, that last part was repeated several times.

Cops show up within 10 minutes - not bad response time for nothing happening right then and several working traffic/criminal satops down the road about 1/2 mile -- saw them littering the highway as I came off the interstate & towards the complex. Discription checked, broadcast, and within 5 minutes (while Officer Friendly is getting my demographics) we hear that they have stopped somebody matching the general description. Would I follow them down the road and look at who they have?

Oh - when Officer F. arrived I informed him I have CHP & weapon. Not required by law but I always find that we get along better if that is the first thing I say. Next was "what would you like me to do?" He asks if I would put weapon in apartment or in trunk as there are 5 or 6 officers on the scene. I do not object as they have secured (handcuffs) the subject and I will not be closer than 3 car lengths (30+ feet?).

We do the spotlight on our hero bit, and I make the ID. They tell me that he is wanted on a few outstanding warrants. I ask if they will press the assault charge and I am assured they will seek the warrant for that. I do the on-scene written statement, exchange business cards with Officer F. and check calendars for a court date.

Nobody hurt (so far). One bad guy off the streets, at least for a while. Jimmy bar against the front door & too much clutter at the back to allow any but the most agile or dedicated to get in without waking me up along with half the street. Motion detector alarm on the 4th step leading from door to upstairs. (I have literally slept through a rocket/mortar attack, as well as a 7th birthday girls' sleepover!) SIG 220 & reload at bedside, E2E Surefire & L4 Lumamax Surefire with the SIG, and .410 SxS with #4s in the semi-hardened closet where I would retreat if anybody came up the stairs. Cell phone in charger in the closet, along with 2 more Surefires and about 12 ammo cases of magazines & loose for the SIG, 2 cases for the .410.

OK. What did I do wrong, besides start the whole mess by opening my mouth? What should I have done differently? Please no discussion of a 12guage pump vs my SxS .410 - that's personal preference, I've heard it all and am satisfied with my decision.

stay safe

skidmark
skidmark is offline  
Old April 5, 2005, 09:46 PM   #2
The Body Bagger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2004
Posts: 821
Well you did the right thing throughout but in my opinion and its only and opinion not trying to ridicule you, I would've just said "how you doing, mind if I get to my place?" I wouldn't have started making demands to put the bottle away and dispurse. OTOH you do you have the right to tell them to get away from your property and yes you did a good thing in getting one BG off the streets. Unfortunately thats one of them, lets hope that since now they all know where you live, nothing else comes of it. Oh yeah trim your nose hairs and wash your socks more often. Thats the end of my critique.
__________________
Rock Out With Your Glock Out
The Body Bagger is offline  
Old April 5, 2005, 09:49 PM   #3
38splfan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2004
Location: Ft. Lewis/Tacoma, WA.
Posts: 1,034
Well.

It sounds as though you handled everything as well as you could.
I admit that I wouldn't have said much in the first place, but I doubt that not speaking would have averted the situation. A group of intoxicated people of ill-repute usually leads to some kind of confrontation, no matter who initiates. I speak from experience as, while stationed in Korea, I was on both the initiating and recieving ends of plenty.

The restraint you displayed by reaching for the OC spray first speaks volumes about you. That was most thoroughly the correct response. It also distracted the BG's from your movement as you readied your weapon. Also, your attempt to retreat and verbally de-fuse the situation was correct. Had you drawn the weapon without first using other means, you would most likely have had some trouble with the LEO's, even if you didn't fire.

You reacted with restraint, intelligence, and sensibility. Those attributes are good to have. Especially in a situation like that. You do need to ask yourself, now that the adrenaline has worn off, a few more questions.

1) Is this 100% what happened? Adrenaline tends to blur events, so be certain of them.

2) What could I have done differently? No matter how well you handle a situation, you could always change something.

3) What was my wife doing? This is a big one. Was she still in the car? Was she retreating? Training SO's on proper reaction is critical.

4) Was I prepared to take this man's life? This is the most important question on many levels. I am sure that, like most of us, you hope to never end a person's life. That being said, how prepared were you? I don't mean physically. Were you willing to accept that it had to be one or the other of you? Also, were you prepared to engage the others if need be?

5) What was my mental state? Were you scared? Confused? Alert? Most likely you were a little of each, and then some. Knowing what you did and thought this time will allow you to prepare somewhat more should the need to react to a threat arise again.

Given your attempts to avoid and de-escalate the situation, as well the restraint you used in regards to drawing your weapon, I think you acted wisely.

Just don't talk to 5 guys with a bottle next time

I hope this helps you. Feel free to e-mail if you would like to discuss it further.

John

Edit/Addition: A thought occurred to me about the time I hit the post button.
In your state, I believe that there are laws governing public intoxication. That being the case, I would have called the police and informed them of their presence and activity before exiting the car, then stay in the car, parked away from the group, and wait for the LEO's. I know it would be a hassle, but it may have averted your confrontation.

I guess hindsight is always 20/20.
__________________
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to others and I expect the same from them." - John Wayne

Last edited by 38splfan; April 5, 2005 at 09:55 PM. Reason: Addition.
38splfan is offline  
Old April 5, 2005, 10:30 PM   #4
skidmark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: Richmond VA - home of a street full of second-place trophies.
Posts: 151
bodybagger & 38splfan -

Thanks for the input. I'll try to respond to some of the issues you raise.

Maybe I should have stayed in the car, or gone inside and called the cops about them drinking, but if they were on the apartment complex property & not the street there was no legal foul. All I can do is ask the landlord to enforce the lease provisions about loitering -- and if they were over 18 the curfew-at-dark does not apply.

I'm going to have to think about this, but I'm just too darned tired of the way things continue to slide downhill because nobody will speak up and object to improper behavior. A few years ago the place really started to slide, then we got a new owner who drew a line in the sand. I like his "gumption" and the fact that the place "cleaned up". Now there are a few minor incidents, like tonight, where it is starting to slide down again. Does it help that the police report can be used as grounds to evict "our hero" or the tenant who he was visiting if the landlord wants to force the issue? Am I aware that if that happens I have made more "friends" that I do not want - YEP!

The SO lives on the other side of town. She was all safely tucked in and locked up when I left her.

Are there some gaps, holes, and deletions in the narrative? You bet there are. Are those so serious as to change the story or slant it more to one side than the other? Nope! Have I written down a much more detailed version of what I posted, or the extremely brief written statement given to Officer Friendly? Wrote out 2 so far - both time-date stamped and locked, then sent as e-mail to my work account. If there's ever a question about my version, I should be able to answer everything except the exact time I arrived home & the exact time the threats/assault were made.

Emotional check for during & after? Mostly calm (been through many similar situations as employee of Dept of Corrections and military corrections 30+ years ago). Heck of a lot less nervousness with maybe 6 all at my front, good cover & angles in my favor, as well as enough light to see everybody's hands and eyes. As all but our hero bunched and moved back, I was able to keep our hero (closest to me) as the primary focus but flicked my eyes to see where & how the group was moving.

Was I prepared to use deadly force? Yes. Not a question in my mind. As I said, I sleep undisturbed, and if the things I have seen and done so far have not messed that up I do not fear I would lose much sleep after meeting with law enforcement and then my attorney. (Yes, his # is on speed-dial, in my Pal Pilot, and in my wallet. I will not get a tattoo, so I must depend on those options.)

Am I nervous/worried now? Nope. I've done what I can to cover myself and since there is nobody in the apartment but me I know anything moving is a target.

Again, I know I need to rethink the confrontation thing that started it all. One issue I'm very much aware of is that under VA law I would be guilty of whatever charge came out of either spraying or shooting, as I initiated the incident. Thank goodness there is no duty to retreat on the street, and once it started to go south I do not think I could have/would have turned my back to try to get inside.

Given what I've said about taking a stand against hooliganism, I need/want to hear from more folks about errors seen or improvements I need to make.

stay safe.

skidmark

added: I am not a "vigilante" and have no ideas or notions of taking on the world, or all the miscreants in my apartment complex parking lot. I just cannot get it out of my mind that certain behaviors are just plain wrong and if they happen in front of me I'm going to say they are wrong.

Assuming that the "can I use your phone" thing never came up, or the group had moved a bit further away, I think I would have gone inside. They were too close and getting in would have required turning my back on them, if only for a few seconds. I did not feel comfortable doing that, so stayed with the car between me and them.

stay safe.

skidmark

Last edited by skidmark; April 5, 2005 at 10:52 PM. Reason: needed to add a comment
skidmark is offline  
Old April 5, 2005, 10:51 PM   #5
38splfan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 19, 2004
Location: Ft. Lewis/Tacoma, WA.
Posts: 1,034
Implication.

I did not mean to imply that you should accept/ignore the hooliganism. It was just a thought. I also did not intend to imply that your story was wrong/inaccurate.
I just know that, especially in court, details are very important and I want to make sure you come out clean after all this.
I would also never dare to assume that you would be prepared to fire at and kill an individual. I am certain that the decision was made when you applied for and recieved you CCW. I just wanted to make sure that the implications and after effects of a killing are understood. I have done it twice in combat and still do not like it. I sleep pretty well, but occassionally it gets to me.

I meant no ill-will at all, just giving some things to think about. All will be important both in court and in a future engagement (hopefully there will not be one).
__________________
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to others and I expect the same from them." - John Wayne
38splfan is offline  
Old April 5, 2005, 10:57 PM   #6
skidmark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: Richmond VA - home of a street full of second-place trophies.
Posts: 151
38splfan,

no offense taken. no thoughts of you being other than helpful and/or supportive.

I have a few souvinier t-shirts myself, but am blessed with a clear mind and a heart that is pure -- at least as far as those things go.

So help me figure out how to improve, given the few things I've said about wanting to confront bad behavior. I'm starting to think that if they had been on the same side of the car as I was I might not have been so bold.

stay safe.

skidmark
skidmark is offline  
Old April 5, 2005, 11:01 PM   #7
Wraith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2004
Location: The Free State
Posts: 505
After the initial confrontation it sounds like you handled it well. One can always argue about whether you should have said anything, but I don't think you were wrong to do so. The only thing I would have done was not put my CCW away.

Ohh, why do you have a silly .410? What you really need is a super-black combat tactical extreme in 12 ga.
__________________
June 23, 2003
GRATZ et al. v. BOLLINGER et al.
The day America died.


Never Forget 9/11.

Cold dead hands...
Wraith is offline  
Old April 5, 2005, 11:26 PM   #8
skidmark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: Richmond VA - home of a street full of second-place trophies.
Posts: 151
wraith -

I'm confused. "Not put my CCW away" ?? The darn thing was in my right hand from before I got out of the car. I never took my hand away until -- DUH!!

OK, but Officer Friendly asked nice and there was nobody around but us two. I also had a BUG inside the car, which is where I stayed while we were doing the spotlight dance and writing the report - with him outside looking all over the street for "our hero"'s friends, if any. His situational awareness way WAYYY past red at that point.

I will send you my FFL address and a signed copy. Thanks for offering to supply me with the ubertactical 12guage pump. However, my puny little .410 will do very nicely, thank you, at the max range of 33 feet front door to back wall (longest straight line in my place). And it has less likelihood of going through both sets of wallboard and messing up my neighbor's sleep.

stay safe.

skidmark
skidmark is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 12:07 AM   #9
Hayley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2004
Posts: 295
Would you have acted differently if you were unarmed? If so, THAT is what you did wrong.
Hayley is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 12:19 AM   #10
Twycross
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 1,187
Quote:
He is now at contact distance - about 2 feet -
The only thing I might have done differently was to keep the bg from getting that close. You told him to stay away, and he didn't. I would have considered using the pepper spray as soon as he disregarded the second warning. But otherwise, great. You kept both your temper and your cool.
__________________
The test of character is not 'hanging in' when you expect light at the end of the tunnel, but performance of duty, and persistence of example when you know no light is coming.
- Vice Admiral James Stockdale, USN (ret.)
Twycross is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 12:24 AM   #11
rmagill
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 29, 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 142
Few things...

Down sides:
Would it have been possible to avoid the entire situation by either driving away or entering your apartment through another door (it sounded like you have more than one entrance to your apartment).

Why did you grab the pepper spray when you did? It seems to me that by doing so you occupied both of your hands. He was only two feet away from you. Had he lunged at you, would you have had enough time to spray him then deal with an even angrier, possibly partially, incapacitated "hero". Perhaps you could have kept your hand on your gun but kept it in the holster. That way you could just leg go if you needed your right hand, or you could draw the gun if you needed that.

Good stuff:

You kept the vehicle between you and the group. This allowed you to keep yourself focused on the main bg. Also, if the group of people decided to attack you, the vehicle was a barrier between you and them.

Good job with recognizing the other group and keeping an eye on them as well.

Good job on using verbal commands and trying to de-escalate (sp?)
the situation without needing to use force. However, could this have been done before the main bg was two feet from you?

Good job on maintaining your composure and not loosing control.

Good job on getting a good enough description of the main bg so that the LEOs could ID him as the suspect later.

Good job on contacting LE right after the incident and fully cooperating with them. It allowed them to ID the driver as the suspect that verbally assaulted you and it, IMO, added to the credibility of your story.

I hope this helps.

Glad to hear that you suffered no harm.

Stay safe.
rmagill is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 12:58 AM   #12
Stiletto
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 9, 2005
Posts: 388
Sounds clean to me.

The first bit about the bottle seems fine, in hindsight maybe a bad idea, but it wasn't inappropriate. (And most of the group responded politely anyway.)
Stiletto is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 05:09 AM   #13
jburtonpdx
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 22, 2005
Posts: 267
Skidmark
Glad you are ok and came through it well. Thank you for taking a stand and removing a BG at least for the night. I am also very glad that you sleep well and hope you continue to do so as well as make it home for dinner every day!

The one question I have is were they blocking your path to your apartment?

Everything else aside, if you did not begin the conversation with this fine group of upstanding young vermin I have a feeling they would have started the chat with you anyways.

I consider myself a tactical coward, if I can avoid a situation that has an obvious potential of turning bad I avoid it and find another solution. Put it this way, if my kids were with me in the car when I pulled up and I saw a local church youth group as you described standing on the porch in front of my home, I would probably pull away and call 911.

In one of your followup posts you talked about the situation more from a tactical perspective and it sounds as though you had a good chunk of everything considered. The only problem I see is if BG was armed and willing along with any of his buddies there could have been a bigger problem then you had to deal with...

Despite my statement about being a tactical coward I can feel the anger and frustration in my gut at situations like this. I like that my neighborhood is nice and comfortable. I want the kids, mine and neighbors, to be able to play without fear, I want to be able to sleep without noisy punks outside, and I want to be sure that my car wont have flat tires in the morning. If I had you for a neighbor I would feel even better about things like that... I hope you do pursue the issue with your landlord and dont let the punks intimidate you, not even a little bit.
jburtonpdx is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 07:01 AM   #14
Rojoe67
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: Wolverine State
Posts: 768
I give you an (A)

Glad all turned out as well as could have.... Dirt bag in custody and you not injured. Sounds like you get an (A) if I was to grade your actions you stated. It's always easy to say what if I did or didn't do this or that. We all learn from our actions and reactions. Again glad your safe and well. I would have given you an A+ but the bottle thing was the reason. I know this is being tough on you but you did well........ Hope our dirt bag gets some cold sandwich diet for a long year+ to think about just how bad he isn't.
Rojoe67 is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 08:15 AM   #15
skidmark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: Richmond VA - home of a street full of second-place trophies.
Posts: 151
Haley - I do not understand "Would you have acted differently if you were unarmed? If so, THAT is what you did wrong." Help me out by giving me some insight to what you are getting at.

Folks - I had a few conversations this AM about the incident. Almost everybody has told me that I should not have confronted the group - either hang my head and slink past them into my apartment, or drive away and come back later - wait till they go away. On the other hand, 2 neighbors stopped me as I was getting ready to leave for the office (we see each other every morning, do the nod&wave). Both said they were glad somebody did something about the guys hanging around. FWIW, I have reason to believe at least 1 is not-quite-legal and the other's female companion is definately not legal. That "prevents" them from making waves wherever they go.

I am not a hero, and do not have a Judge Dredd complex, nor do I harbor any great desire to shoot anybody. I carry not because I want to, but because there are some very specific threats out there that I need to be aware of (former inmates and associayes, mostly), plus an occasional incident when I am in a "safer than most" place at a time it is not so safe (forrays to a few restaraunts on the edges of not-so-nice neighborhoods). Then, there is also the incident last night.

Most of the time I only need to worry about myself - for some things the single life is great. I feel comfortable carrying, not because I am now badder than anybody else, but because as an almost senior citizen with bad knees, bad back, bad heart, bad lungs I cannot run away fast, so must deal with the world as I find it. Carrying just evens out some of the other limitations. It also makes me realize that in spite of my conviction that I seem to have elected myself to stand up at times against nasty behavior in public I am not "In Charge" and since nobody has to do what I say I need to pick my confrontations carefully.

Call it a gut feeling, but last night as soon as I pulled in and saw the group, I was very sure that everybody but our hero would melt away if confronted. I'm still trying to pick out the signs/signals I was picking up on that gave me that feeling, but some were they began moving away as I pulled into the parking area and towards "my" space. Sort of as if they knew in their hearts they were not doing right anyway. The other sign I am well aware of is the dropping of the head and low-volume muttering of apologies - as opposed to our hero whose head went way up and he reallly eyeballed me.

Again, thanks for all the feedback. I'll try to post the short-term outcome, but court date is May 25th.

stay safe.

skidmark
skidmark is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 08:39 AM   #16
Bo Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 113
I myself am just a young buck of 29, and carrying or not, I don't think I would have confronted 6 guys that were drinking in the manner that you did. I think I would have asked them to move so I could get into my apartment, and then said something to the effect of "I've had a long night, and need to get some sleep, could you guys move it somewhere else?"

I don't really know anything about your situation, where you live, or the company it keeps - so perhaps your particular situation might have dictated the response. Of course, I'm not a former Prison guard who has worked with much worse ratio's of the same types of bad guys my whole life either...

I actually had similar problems at an apartment complex I lived in. For some reason, there were 8-10 Mexicans (I'm not being racist, they were in fact Mexican), that for some reason, always wanted to hang around my front door, and around my living room windows. Management would do nothing. They didn't really cause problems, and more than anything, they just annoyed me by being there. Leaning against my living room windows, etc. I never said anything as I knew it wouldn't accomplish much, other than possibly my apartment getting broken into (pretty simple schedules, gone by 8am, home by 7pm every day), or my tires slashed or vehicle destroyed. So, I simply looked for a new place to live and got out of that dump....

Congrats for diffusing a situation and getting a "BG" off the street. I use quotes, because other than hanging out and sharing a bottle, were they really doing anything wrong until you told them to get rid of it?
Bo Hunter is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 10:15 AM   #17
swjr72
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Posts: 129
Agree with Twycross You dont want the BG getting that close
After the 1st Verbal command he has the option to retreat comply or face action FBI stats show BG can close 21' in 3 seconds
If he had really wanted to cause you bodily harm he prob could have being within 2' of you
Other than that sounds like BG had an attitude and prob was looking for trouble
__________________
NRA
CZ-75B
Glock 19, 21, 26
swjr72 is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 10:23 AM   #18
Wraith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2004
Location: The Free State
Posts: 505
Why should you put away your CCW? I don't understand why the LEO would ask that of you in the first place.

I hope you know I was being sarcastic with the 12 gauge comment.
__________________
June 23, 2003
GRATZ et al. v. BOLLINGER et al.
The day America died.


Never Forget 9/11.

Cold dead hands...
Wraith is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 10:46 AM   #19
Kilroy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 17, 1998
Posts: 117
Moving forward and ordering the suspect around (as seen by a jury) would not put you in the best light. No matter what you think of things and how they should be...

Quote:
Call it a gut feeling
Guess your best won't stand up very well in court. You don't know who you are dealing with and what their history/record/state of mind is going to be.
Kilroy is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 10:59 AM   #20
skidmark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: Richmond VA - home of a street full of second-place trophies.
Posts: 151
Why should you put away your CCW? I don't understand why the LEO would ask that of you in the first place.

I hope you know I was being sarcastic with the 12 gauge comment.


And here I was hoping that a 12guage was going to show up. :>(

Officer friendly asked me to put away my CCW because he was asking me to go down the street to where the BG was, there were many other cops there, he did not want me to suddenly become confrontational towards the guy that just threatened to kill me, and he was generally concerned that if I had a gun it might go "bang" and hurt somebody. In other words, because 'only cops should have guns" I guess.

As to why I agreed? 1) Because I did not feel there was an immediate threat possibility at that moment; 2) because I had a BUG in the car; and 3) because I did not feel I needed to waste my time and deteriorate my rapport with Offirer F. by arguing with him about it. Please note the stress on #2.

Just to give praise where praise is due, Officer F. was doing a great swivel-head lookout all during the time I was sitting in my vehicle writing out my statement. Not only did he scan the area, he used his Maglight & spotlight to sweep 360 several times, as well as always moving around his or my vehicle to put them between him and where he was shining the light. And he never stood next to the driver-side window - either he was trying to make sure I did not get backlighted or he was just keeping away from the primary target possibility.

I'm stymied till at least 1500 on getting ID info on the BG. For some reason all the records that currently exist are classified as non-public. The Major in charge of the Uniformed Bureau understands why I want the info & said he will contact Officer F. about contacting me right after rollcall. If it all works out I will go home tonight knowing who the BG is and be able to track his status.

stay safe.

skidmark
skidmark is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 11:08 AM   #21
skidmark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: Richmond VA - home of a street full of second-place trophies.
Posts: 151
Kilroy -

Moving forward and ordering the suspect around (as seen by a jury) would not put you in the best light. No matter what you think of things and how they should be...

Quote:
Call it a gut feeling

Guess your best won't stand up very well in court. You don't know who you are dealing with and what their history/record/state of mind is going to be.


Never advanced on BG - only stood my ground. Agree that is not the most tactically appropriate thing to do, but retreat into the car was not available and moving back would only put me in the open with nothing between me & the rest of the group, as well as move from light to shadow.

Agree that I did not know who he is or what his history & state of mind were. But how many of us do know that till afterwards? I made a decision to take a stand, and got away with it. Given that I will probably do the same in the future, I wanted to hear what glaring errors I made and what I could do better. We all agree that let him get way too close, and I admit that the only reason I did not draw down on him was bad thinking. However, some experience with the "type" and with the hand-waving vs fists balled up scenario colored my actions. I do not say what I did will work for others, or will work next time if even only 1 variable is different.

Let's take what DID happen, as it happened, and critique me on that basis. emember, if I had the advantage last night of everybody's hindsight I'd probably be talking to my lawyer about a shooting incident, if not a pepperspraying. As it happened, I walked away "clean" and the BG is temporarily off the street.

stay safe.

skidmark
skidmark is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 02:37 PM   #22
XavierBreath
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2002
Location: North Louisiana
Posts: 2,800
I usually don't armchair quarterback these things, but since you asked.....

Quote:
Haley - I do not understand "Would you have acted differently if you were unarmed? If so, THAT is what you did wrong." Help me out by giving me some insight to what you are getting at.
This was some very good advice. Nobody on this forum or elsewhere knows the sublties of the situation like yourself. Haley gave you good advice for examining the situation yourself. The gun you carry only gives you the ability to save your life. It gives you no extra rights, and no extra protection from harm. Of course, everyone should have the right to go into their home without a confrontation with hoodlums. That is not what I'm getting at. Ask yourself the question honestly, and examine the situation.


Quote:
I myself am just a young buck of 29, and carrying or not, I don't think I would have confronted 6 guys that were drinking in the manner that you did. I think I would have asked them to move so I could get into my apartment, and then said something to the effect of "I've had a long night, and need to get some sleep, could you guys move it somewhere else?"
I think Bohunter spoke some words of wisdom that were overlooked. One you. Six of them. That's ballsy. When you made your request, they feigned apologetic compliance. Then they made a request that you were not prepared to reciprocate. They knew what they were doing when they did this. Either you would let them abuse your cell phone or you would "dis" them and give the hero a chance to be the big man. They were not prepared for you to be able to defend yourself.

Bohunter's suggestion was not so much of a demand as a request. It is not as confrontational. It, too, may have had the same result, but it does not "dis" these cretins quite so much.

I don't know, a lot of it will depend on the hero cretin you are pressing charges against, but in a lot of instances he would be back on the streets in 24 hours with a wounded reputation to restore. I'm not saying what you did was wrong. I'm not saying what they did was OK. I am saying that the way things are is quite a bit different than the way they should be. I'd watch my 6 for a while. I have a feeling you will see these folks again. They know where you live. You are now on the defensive, and at a disadvantage if they want to engage in social discourse again. That could have been avoided by a little more discretion at the outset.

All that being said, I have to commend you for taking a stand to clean up a problem that is your landlord's responsibility. Your landlord needs to clean up his building. Hopefully you have contacted him.

I hope it works out for you.
__________________
Xavier's Blog
XavierBreath is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 03:09 PM   #23
skidmark
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 27, 2005
Location: Richmond VA - home of a street full of second-place trophies.
Posts: 151
XavierBreath -

Thanks for clearing up Haley's question. Took me a while to understand it.

What would I do differently if I was not armed? Have not given it a long think, but think I would not have done anything differently.

I have 1 way in & out of the apartment, as the back door is not accessable from the street. Park in the same spot right in front of the door all the time. 3 possible ways to get to the complex, all with great lines of sight all the way around. I will be upping my awareness until well after court the end of May.

stay safe.

skidmark
skidmark is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 03:17 PM   #24
IronGeek
Member
 
Join Date: March 17, 2005
Posts: 84
Identifying Criminals

Whenever I've helped out the police by ID'ing a perp, I've always sat in the passenger or back seat of the officer's squad car, rode with them to where the suspect was being detained/questioned, & ID'ed him from the car with the headlights shining into the BG's eyes. I wouldn't want the BG to see me, my car, or anything else that might clue him up that I was the "little bird" in question.

I had a similar experience going back to my truck in a seedy neighborhood after visiting with a friend. There were three very "thuggish" guys leaning on my truck around the driver's side door. I had my hand in my front pocket, with my belt knife under my wrist, on the ready. I walked past my truck & approached the driver door from the back so as not to have my back to anyone when opening the door.

"'Scuse me, fellas," I said, and they dispersed. Of course, I think it was largely due to the ever-presence of my 90lb pitbull trotting along at my side. He tends to make BG's part like the Red Sea.

It's nearly impossible to get a CCW in the part of California where I live, but sometimes I feel like I should carry anyway...
__________________
-IGgy

S&W M19-3 .357 4"
IronGeek is offline  
Old April 6, 2005, 03:48 PM   #25
Bo Hunter
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 9, 2004
Location: New York
Posts: 113
Xavier made me think of something else. He mentioned watching your six and expect a reintroduction to Mr. BadAss. I would also watch your 12 when entering your apartment for a while. It would be much easier for them to break into the back door (knowing you never use it) and lie in wait for you to come home. As the saying goes, "Revenge is a dish best served cold" and I wouldn't put it past people with nothing better to do to case you, and your apartment, and ambush you, or worse yet, perform the ever popular drive by....
Bo Hunter is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:12 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2013 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.15014 seconds with 7 queries