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Old March 20, 2005, 07:08 PM   #1
artsmom
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Black Eye for SWAT Teams, Police

How does a supposedly highly trained SWAT officer shoot an unarmed man (twice) during a raid to retrieve a fellow cop's gun, which he left unattended in the front seat with a known drug addict?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1312923/posts

If my 12 year old son accidentally shoots a hen pheasant in the excitement of a close flush, he would get a ticket from the game warden. If I accidentally shoot a farmer while deer hunting, I go to prison for manslaughter. If Barney Fyfe shoots a hole in the Mayberry Courthouse, he gets 20 seconds of canned laughter and a chewing out by Sheriff Andy. This SWAT team guy just walked Friday from a grand jury in Iowa, with "No comment." being the official mantra from everyone concerned.

Disgusting for the general public, embarassing for anyone who carries a badge. (Moderator, this may be posted in the wrong place, please move or delete if needed.)
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Old March 20, 2005, 07:21 PM   #2
boston strangler
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No Comment.

Well, most LE Agencies have a "NO PRESS" policy that prevents officers from making comments regarding ongoing investigations. Since he was walking out of the GJ the investigation was still ongoing. I'm not defending his mistake. However I am defending not making a comment that could cause him even more disciplinary action from his agency.

The press always makes a big deal out of this. They show an officer saying "no comment". Well no #$%@ no comment. Do we ever say anything to them. No. We have an officer designated to handle those matters.
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Old March 20, 2005, 07:42 PM   #3
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Felon with a firearm, active meth lab, other controlled substances on property, convictions for possession and sale of controlled substances, past assaultive behavior.. basic career criminal.

Ya reap what you sow.

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Old March 20, 2005, 07:50 PM   #4
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Boo hoo for the drug trafficker. Who said they shot him "by accident"? Didn't say that anywhere in the article. Seems like you're giving the meth lab owner the benefit of the doubt. I'd prefer to give it to the cop. Doesn't embarass me in the least.

His first mistake was running a meth lab. Bad stuff usually happens to those who do. Second mistake was doing something other than sitting there with his hands up and his mouth shut when the SWAT team came through the door. Nobody said the cop made a mistake yet. I'm sure glad I can afford to live somewhere other than next to a meth lab.

I'd say the gist of the article was "Black Eye for Drug Trafficker". Now all the people who rely on him for their drugs will have to find someone else to deal with and the next door neighbors will hope they get a better neighbor then a drug trafficker. All because he was stupid and got caught manufacturing and selling contraband narcotics.
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Old March 20, 2005, 08:16 PM   #5
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Quote:
How does a supposedly highly trained SWAT officer shoot an unarmed man (twice) during a raid to retrieve a fellow cop's gun, which he left unattended in the front seat with a known drug addict?
Well artsmommy, to put tha answer to that in short form: "Front sight, trigger press..."

And until all the facts are made known and the investigation concluded not much more can be made of the incident. Trying to level charges of wrongdoing with less than all the facts and an apparent bone to pick with law enforcement in general is ignorant at best. What does this incident have to do with cops in my town anyway? Why should they be embarrassed over something that is still under investigation and has been initially described as "appropriate" by those closest to it anyway?
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Old March 20, 2005, 11:18 PM   #6
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I am glad you guys made me aware that trials, lawyers, judges, juries, and the Constitution are all superfulous, and we all have the right to hand out death penalties. I guess you guys aren't bothered by that, are you? Were you bothered when the guy in Atlanta handed out a death penalty to a female cop for not being able to keep control of her weapon? Did you say, "Tough sh*t, that what happens when you can't cut the mustard on the street." I didn't think that in either case, but I may be in the minority here with the survival of the fittest mentality.

As for "No Comment", the SWAT guy has already walked from the Grand Jury, as reported by the Omaha World-Herald, so there is no "legal" reason he cannot comment, unless the lawyers are already lined up for an excessive use of force payday.

There is also no comment as to why such a huge force, complete with helicopter, was needed to retrieve a cop's stolen gun. Some sort of "Thin Blue Line" honor thing I would imagine.

I guess I should be grateful that they at least got the street address right.
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Old March 21, 2005, 06:02 AM   #7
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They're always hiring at the police academy....Why don't you get a job and try to change things from within? I'm sure they'd be willing to hire someone who obviously knows more about executing search warrants than they do....
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Old March 21, 2005, 08:20 AM   #8
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None of us are privy to the Grand Jury Testimony .... surely we don't include the Judge and Jury in this "blue line" conspiracy?

Any opinion so far is based wholly on the story of the woman watching tv with the BG as reported by the [slanted] media ... which is to say we don't know much of anything.

If it happened the way she says, the LEO is screwed. I have my doubts. In fact, given that he wasn't even suspended pending the outcome, I would go as far as to say I'd be "surprised" if it actually went down like she says.
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Old March 21, 2005, 08:37 AM   #9
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Quote:
At a Thursday press conference to discuss the shooting, investigators displayed 24 rifles, shotguns and handguns taken from the Pace residence. Some of them were loaded at the time they were found, investigators said.

Investigators said they also found an operational methamphetamine lab, a small quantity of meth and 2 pounds of marijuana at the farmhouse, two miles southeast of Glenwood.

Pace had prior felony and misdemeanor convictions. They included possession of drugs, delivery of drugs such as cocaine and marijuana, and multiple assault charges.
And this lady was apparantly just laying around on this guy's couch oblivious to the fact he was a convicted felon possessing illegal weapons and an operational meth lab. Yeah, riiiiiiight... I'll believe that one. Call me crazy, but her story doesn't have much credability with me.

Really, the only tragedy here is that the .223 rounds didn't overpenetrate and take this woman out accidently.
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Old March 21, 2005, 08:57 AM   #10
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From the news article it is clear only one side of the story is being told and that is the story of a friend of the alleged criminal and possible conspirator. Until an investigation is complete and all facts are known, no comment is the correct response. The facts will not change. If a mistake was made, then yes it is very tragic. But, from the news article in that link, I cannot conclude that a mistake was made. I have found in the past that it is not prudent to draw a conclusion based on a news article depicting only one side of any story. I would not be surprised if this "witness" quoted in the article is a liar. After all, she is the friend of a convicted felon with illegal weapons in a meth lab, not to mention what her criminal history may or maynot look like. When determining a persons credibility, you must look at more than just what they say. You must look at the circumstances as a whole. Ignorantly pass judgement without the facts if you like, I will wait until a thorough investigation has been completed and base my opinion on factual material.
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Old March 21, 2005, 09:43 AM   #11
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Quote:
I am glad you guys made me aware that trials, lawyers, judges, juries, and the Constitution are all superfulous, and we all have the right to hand out death penalties.
Actually we were pointing out that they should be allowed to do thier jobs, investigate and judge the incident on its merits and to do otherwise was a bad idea. We were cautioning against jumping to obsene conclusions...
Quote:
the SWAT guy has already walked from the Grand Jury, as reported by the Omaha World-Herald, so there is no "legal" reason he cannot comment, unless the lawyers are already lined up for an excessive use of force payday.
You don't see the hypocricy here? The Grand Jury did its thing and due process was served - who in thier right minds wants to ignore the consitution and submit the cops to double jeopardy? (Hint: it wasn't us.) Lets try 'em again cause we didn't like the first result and I'll condem them on the internet since I can't convene the jury myself! :barf:

Seems to me all those details the original article didn't bother with or were not made public may have been important enough to the Grand Jury to come to a correct conclusion despite the little doper friend's squealing. Could have been she was lying? Surprise, surprise. The death was NOT criminal - so said the jury.

Anyway - lawyers are ALWAYS lined up for excessive use of force paydays, even when there wasn't any. That is the way real life is, not that cops are out to kill people at the drop of a hat. That IS one of the reasons why they don't talk about it if they can help it.
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Old March 21, 2005, 10:13 AM   #12
12-34hom
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If Mr. Bad Guy had devoted his time to other than criminal activities.

The police would have never been at his doorstep.

This a concept that eludes artsmom. If you wanna play - you're going to pay.

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Old March 21, 2005, 10:17 AM   #13
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Old March 21, 2005, 10:53 AM   #14
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Okay, if we are going to play games such as "...she was with a felon, we can't believe her", then we are going to have to assign substantial weight to the assertion, "If the SWAT guy is innocent, why is he hiding behind the 'No Comment' dodge? An innocent man wouldn't be afraid of the truth."

I am not surprised, but more than a little concerned, that more than a few are willing to write his death off because of his past record and what they found in the house. IF you believe in the Constitution, this guy was innocent until he is dragged before the judge. If you believe, that is.

Calling the grand jury was an afterthought, and wasn't really considered until the Omaha World-Herald asked the County Attorney. He commented that they never usually call grand juries just because a cop kills someone. (In Nebraska, it is required when a law enforcement officer kill someone, or someone dies in custody.)
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Old March 21, 2005, 11:03 AM   #15
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:barf:

I think it is important to remember that what makes us a free society is that law enforcement is not above the law.
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Old March 21, 2005, 11:21 AM   #16
Struckin Fuggle
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Wasn't implying he's above the law ... I AM implying that the facts of the shooting are unknown with the exception of a witness who is, imho, less than credible.

Again, are YOU implying the Judge and Jury were part of the conspiracy to let the cop off?? Or is it more likely they had the facts and you/we have a b*llsh*t story and slanted newspaper article??

You've read the story outlining her account of what transpired in that room and I maintain you have absolutely no idea what "really" happened.
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Old March 21, 2005, 11:41 AM   #17
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Doper felon's girlfiend: "Cops bad - they shot honeybro dealer!"
Sensationalizing newsreporter: "Doper felon's girlfriend said cops bad, shot honeybro dealer. Doper felon's girlfriend said Honeybro dealer didn't do anything wrong."
Artsmom: "Cops bad - doper felon girlfirend said so! Constitution says all innocent until proven guilty - cops need to be convicted of murder cause they didn't drag honeybro felon to judge before shooting him!"
Grand jury: "Upon careful review of all the facts available, we find there was no criminal act in the shooting of honyebro dealer. The shooting was justifiable." Constitutional due process requirement fulfilled.
Artsmom: "Cops bad - Honeybro dealer innocent until proven guilty in a court of law! Hang the cops cause they won't tell me what happened!" Ignores Constitutional due process requirement and grand jury findings...

I get it, sigh. Enough pulling of my hair over this, it's thin enough.
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Old March 21, 2005, 11:52 AM   #18
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Artsmom, please stopm using this NO COMMENT garbage as an argument, by your logic, then OJ should be walking around bragging how he iced his wife.

I applaud that SWAT officer for no comment, I as well as my fellow LEOs know that the no comment will help MINIMIZE MEDIA SPIN AND KEEP ME OUT OF FURTHER TROUBLE WITH MY DEPARTMENT. Go home.
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Old March 21, 2005, 11:55 AM   #19
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All I can say is thank the Lord that the incident will be decided by the citizens on a grand jury rather than someone who jumps to a conclusion based upon a newspaper article. Do you make any important decisions affecting your life based upon equally "reliable" information?
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Old March 21, 2005, 12:22 PM   #20
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Quote:
I am glad you guys made me aware that trials, lawyers, judges, juries, and the Constitution are all superfulous, and we all have the right to hand out death penalties. I guess you guys aren't bothered by that, are you?
You're right its too bad the perp wasn't just injured in the fracus, that way he can sue the police agency for millions and live like the fine upstanding citizen that he is. Or better yet he should've gone to prison for 5 years and when he gets out he can retake up that fine entrepenuerial sprit of his and assist the locals in an addiction to methamphetemines. What were we thinking?
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Old March 21, 2005, 01:24 PM   #21
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I don't post much here, but I spend a lot of time on another forum called ArcheryTalk. A member there was good friends with the late Brett Pace. Apparently, there is much more to this story than meets the eye, and the local police force there is quite corrupt. Some other details to the story that were published in other articles on this subject include:

Guns were found in his bedroom closet, not laying all over the house.
After shooting, they left him lay, shot, on the floor for roughly 30 minutes before even calling for an ambulance. Had they called, its possible he would have survived the wounds. He was incapacitated, why not call an ambulance? When they are in a high speed chase, and the perp crashes, they don't just let him lay there and die, they call an ambulance to the scene.

I will inform him of this thread so he can come offer his opinions... The above information is only being relayed from other articles I've read on the subject. While I agree, it is Pace's fault he was in the situation of having a No-Knock warrant executed on his home due to the posession of fire arms, I feel the shooting was DEFINITELY unjustified if he was truly unarmed, and I've read NOTHING that indicates otherwise.

I'll let the guy know. I'm sure he'll call himself "The Hood" if he chooses to respond. He's a little unique in is word usage, but I think he'll get his points across....

You guys are only seeing one piece of the pie with this article, that I assure you....

Bo
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Old March 21, 2005, 01:26 PM   #22
Bo Hunter
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Here is a link to one of the other articles he's posted on Archery Talk...

http://www.archerytalk.com/vb/showthread.php?t=165299
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Old March 21, 2005, 03:39 PM   #23
12-34hom
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Quote:
The local police force there is quite corrupt
Proof of this - -evidence - something a little more substantial than an INTERNET blurb... you understand.

Quote:
Guns were found in his bedroom closet, not all over the house
What would be your point there? he's a convicted felon, not supposed to have any type of firearms.. period.

Quote:
A member here was good friends with the late Brett Pace.
Yes, and he will be objective with his comments -correct - temper his thoughts knowing that Mr. Pace = Felon, drug dealer & user, apparently had a violent temper. With a career lasting some 25 years..

Quote:
After they shot him, they left him laying on the floor for roughly 30 minutes
That is B.S. - where does this information come from?

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Old March 21, 2005, 03:53 PM   #24
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"If the SWAT guy is innocent, why is he hiding behind the 'No Comment' dodge? An innocent man wouldn't be afraid of the truth."
The media will misquote you if you hand them a press release in writing. What do you think they do with oral statements that may be open to interpretation? Only an idiot talks to the press when he's under investigation. The press, especially the electronic media, is not interested in justice. They'd interested in sensationalism and ratings. If they were interested in the truth, when little Johnny Dead Felon's auntie gets on the TV and says "It was all a terrible waste...he was going to join the Marines next week and serve his contry in Iraq" or "He was thinking about maybe next week if the weather was nice, applying to take the test for medical school", they'd do some research and find out he couldn't possibly qualify for military service due to his mulitple felony convictions, and medical school was out of the question because he only attended 3 days of school in the past decade. Ever hear the media comment on that? You'd better believe they'd go over what the cop said with a fine tooth comb.

Quote:
I feel the shooting was DEFINITELY unjustified if he was truly unarmed, and I've read NOTHING that indicates otherwise.
The police are not required to wait to see if someone is armed before they shoot if they reasonably feel their safety is in jeapordy.

As far as what I "feel"....I feel a dead meth dealer is better than a live one. But that's just me......I thank God that I can afford to live away from meth dealers and/or move if one sets up shop around me. I would never harm a meth dealer...We need them to drive down the prices of houses in SOME neighborhoods so that society's dregs will have somewhere to live fairly centrally instead of being even more spread out.
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Old March 21, 2005, 04:06 PM   #25
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artsmom....

artsmom, I think on #6 you said the suspect in Atlanta sentenced murder to a female police officer or something to that account? Unless the news I read and followed was wrong or I missed the fact that the beaten officer that was locked in a cell died something is messed up in translation here. Anyhow on to the 2nd but most important point of your post.

My second point as some other folks have mentioned was any time a police officer has been in a shooting he is advised to say nothing to the media or anyone else not connected to the issues at hand. This is to protect the officer and department from later legal games that would play out in court. If you carry a concealed weapon and are ever forced to use it, I would recommend to use your right and contact a lawyer and use your right to remain silent. Many people in the past have run their mouth right into big legal issues even with likely perfect sound reasons to shoot an attacker in self defense. The police department has legal staff informing them what to do and not do. The fact you think because an officer remains silent to the media that makes him or her guilty? I would bet if you give it a week, you will get a big story and better explaination of all details. The media mistrust of authority won't just let this story go away...rest assured on that one. A real example of this took place about a month ago here in Michigan. State Trooper's were trying to pull a vehicle over that had been radar checked way above the legal speed limit. Once Troopers were able to force the vehicle off the road the driver then decided he would run over one of the Trooper's as he approached the vehicle. This act of deliberate assult on the LEO was responded to with multiple LEO's shooting to stop the attack. The media got to the suspect's family first. I should mention one was killed and the other injured. The suspects family blamed the LEO's for everything. These were good and wonderful people claimed one family member. The Trooper's had no comment at first. Then the next day came and a full investigation and many witness accounts and evidence showed the crime took place just as Trooper's had reported. Just thought this might shine a little light on your case that in a way has similar issues. Trooper's actions were legal and expected and justified.....

One last thing: Have you been dealt a bad hand by the law enforcement community where you reside? You sound as though you might have some real issue(s) with police officer's in general. Sorry if I am way out of line but my little brain has a little light bulb and it's blinking on and off after reading your post.
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