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Old March 19, 2005, 05:42 PM   #1
chris in va
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Stumped on a 'situation'

Out of the blue my female friend asked what I would do if there was a woman in a park being brutally attacked/raped/etc.

Now I pointed out a couple instances where in the past people have done that consentually or the GG was mistaken for the BG, but I had no real answer to her question. I offered pepper spray and told her I'm certainly not an LEO nor am I trained to be one.

Then again, I'm not one to stand around and let things happen either.
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Old March 19, 2005, 06:21 PM   #2
ATW525
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I would verbally challenge the BG as loud as possible. If it's a kinky couple, they most likely will stop roleplaying when a third party intervenes. If it's a real BG, they might stop thier attack and run when I confront them. If the BG is stupid and persists, then I would feel justified in employing deadly force to stop the hostilities.
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Old March 19, 2005, 06:26 PM   #3
jburtonpdx
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call 911 first, scream and shout like a crazy person as I start running at them, heck both of the would probably end up running away at that sight...
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Old March 19, 2005, 06:37 PM   #4
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Chris, I would get to 911 on my cell first and then, while standing back and in a very loud voice ask what the **** (I did the ***, not the computer) are you doing/up to.

If the guy (good or bad) cops an attitude then I would hold him at gunpoint until the cops come. If he comes to me in an aggressive way or says anything that makes me become fearful (and then moves in on me) then I will fire.

I'd rather be wrong then be right and not have done anything to help.

This is something that has given me much thought over the years. I get so tired of hearing about little girls being killed, women raped, criminals getting away with murder, literally. I am nothing but one lone person and I have no delusions of super heros or the guy with the white hat (as in the old westerns). Yet, I cannot just sit back and just say "well, I saw the crime but I couldn't do anything" as in, wouldn't do anything. I've read many of the posts and replies upon here, as well as others, and that others think that we're just out to "kill someone" or are "trigger happy", etc.. No, I'm not. I, like most here, do wish for a utopia where the guns that we carry are just done so because game is everywhere and you can "shop" (hunt) your meal for the night on your way home.

Yet it pains me when I "hear" (read) some of the replies that are given or in real life, see some of the things and the excuses that are given, when it comes to a fellow human being being vicimized.

Powderman has it right on his post (not this one, another and I'm too lazy right now to find and post a link). Most people are so caught up with what society tells them and shames them for that they will sit back and do nothing but a good witness at the murder trial.

I know that not all people are the same. I have thought upon this subject and I've decided that if I see such a thing happen, I will act. I am not a big man, I am 150lbs soaking wet and my powers of muscle could be described as the strength of a mouse, maybe even my cat (but she still beats the heck outta me).

As such, all I have is the power of man made products to make me able to overcome and intervine when a crime or most importantly, a violent crime is taking place. I know of these tools and I use them, if needed, to equalize my and the victims chances, of coming out of it alive.

Yet I will not give up my responsibility to help others that are in need if I am able, no matter my shortcomings.

I'm trying not to come off, on this post and others, as self-rightous or arrogant. I'm just trying to put into words that in my life, I've decided to help when I can, to use the tools available, and to take responsibility not only for myself, my own actions, but for others that need help or ask for help.

I'm not saying that one should pull their gun and use it as the first and only opinion, but that they are able to have such if it is needed. Due to many posts and replies that I have read, a canister of OC and maybe some lessons in boxing or some other form of personal defense is in order. But to not do anything or have the tools to be able to do something just seems like the new American way of not "getting involved" and giving a false sense of self respect or non guilt.

I'm sorry, I am stupid, I take full responsibility in what I do, and what I don't do, and what I've done.

Wayne
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Old March 19, 2005, 07:23 PM   #5
Dwight55
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I like the first idea: call 911, . . . keep them on the line, . . .

Next question: is it in town where LEO response is within a few minutes? OR is it out in the boonies where LEO response may be 30 minutes from now?

Each has it's own set of baggage. In town, . . . I would probably shout at the couple to try to find out if it is some kind of kinky hanky panky and if it was, . . . I'd tell the 911 operator. Other than that, . . . I would probably just try to be a good witness, . . . I would not want to be standing in the local park with my 1911 pointed at someone when the boys in blue come storming in. In my three local towns, . . . that would be at most only a couple of minutes from the time I told the 911 operator.

Boonie land would probably cause me to not only shout, . . . but unholster in case bg decides I spoiled his party and he wants a piece of me now. He in all probability will try to zip and run, . . . most rapists are feral cowards. Have to play it by ear for what happens next.

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Old March 19, 2005, 07:55 PM   #6
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Though I see the logic in calling 911, I would call 911 after, rather than waste the time when somebody was in immediate peril. After the victim was out of immediate danger, I would then call 911 to report the situation and give a description of the subject and the direction he ran in, or inform the operator I have the suspect at gunpoint, or to tell the operator to send a body bag... depending on how it ended up.
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Old March 19, 2005, 08:21 PM   #7
chris in va
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I have to agree about calling 911 afterward, or yelling for someone else to. If a BG is knifing or beating the hell out of someone, the threat needs to stop NOW.

I'm all ears though, lets here more ideas.
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Old March 19, 2005, 08:26 PM   #8
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Assuming there is one attacker, I would intervene immediately, physically. I would pull him off the woman, and try to restrain him.

If he tried to run, I would try to get at least a piece of him, a license number, a description, something, that would help identify him. I would let him go, however, as my job at hand is not to catch a rapist, but to help a victim.

If he decided to attack me, I would protect my life with whatever force was necessary.

If they ended up being a kinky couple, (and I would like to think I would know the difference) then I would give them a strong piece of my mind for displaying thier perversions in my park, and call 911.

I have to say that I would call 911 post incident. I would not dwaddle on the telephone while someone was being brutalized in this fashion. The 10 seconds you spend talking to a dispatcher may be the victim's last ten seconds of life.

If there were more than one attacker.......... THEN I would dial 911 first, because I could concievably be a victim as well. I would then intervene verbally and try to get the attention focused on me. I would likely already have my weapon out, and would not hesitate to use it at the slightest provocation.

Right or wrong, I feel that this is how I would respond, unless someone effectively shows me the errors of my ways. I just cannot and could not get past the idea that that woman is some man's daughter, and hopefully if it were my daughter some man would be man enough to intervene.
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Old March 19, 2005, 09:43 PM   #9
tlm225
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I would take action pronto. The level of force I use will be dictated (as always) by the supposed BG and no I really don't care if there is one or three. Several times I have seen people "what iffing" something to death, I hope that they are more decisive if they ever do come face to face with a situation. I would not spend the rest of my life wondering if I could have saved a woman trauma if I had acted sooner.
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Old March 20, 2005, 11:07 AM   #10
2400
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Quote:
Assuming there is one attacker, I would intervene immediately, physically. I would pull him off the woman, and try to restrain him.

If he tried to run, I would try to get at least a piece of him, a license number, a description, something, that would help identify him. I would let him go, however, as my job at hand is not to catch a rapist, but to help a victim.

If he decided to attack me, I would protect my life with whatever force was necessary.

If they ended up being a kinky couple, (and I would like to think I would know the difference) then I would give them a strong piece of my mind for displaying thier perversions in my park, and call 911.

I have to say that I would call 911 post incident. I would not dwaddle on the telephone while someone was being brutalized in this fashion. The 10 seconds you spend talking to a dispatcher may be the victim's last ten seconds of life.

If there were more than one attacker.......... THEN I would dial 911 first, because I could concievably be a victim as well. I would then intervene verbally and try to get the attention focused on me. I would likely already have my weapon out, and would not hesitate to use it at the slightest provocation.

Right or wrong, I feel that this is how I would respond, unless someone effectively shows me the errors of my ways. I just cannot and could not get past the idea that that woman is some man's daughter, and hopefully if it were my daughter some man would be man enough to intervene.
I agree with most of what you said. I'm just curious why you would call 911 if it turned out to be a kinky couple?
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Old March 20, 2005, 11:34 AM   #11
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not a cop

how to respond to the lady being raped scenario may vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction...many states say a person intervening acts at their own peril and if you kill the suspect you may not have any legal grounds as the defense of others may be limited to family or other definite clases of persons...as always, I'd recommend the use of force or even display of firearm be avoided if possible and not utilized unless necessary right then to avoid immediate serious injury to self or other...
keep a reasonable distance from the assailant (you can't help if you a victim too with a knife in your gut).., assess the scene for risks (other potential threats out there?)...and do the yelling and 911 calling recommended by others...get the guy's attention on you and away from her...but avoid engaging with force unless compelled to do so...you may end up the goat and being arrested, prosecuted, etc...(you may beat the rap, but you certainly won't beat the ride!)..don't think like a wyatt earp out there...move with caution and deliberation not with emotion and super hero thoughts in your head.
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Old March 20, 2005, 11:51 AM   #12
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I'm surprised this has come up. My sensi, who was trained in Aikijutsu for 15 years in Japan (and former Vietnam vet) came across just such a situation. He saw a man really beating up a woman and he naturally did what any extremely capable martial artists does -- he helped the woman and broke the man's arm among other things. However, once he did, the woman stated bitching at him for doing that to her boyfriend. He just decided this was too weird for him and walked away. I'd say if were me, I'll call 911 or the police first and yell from a distance with my hand securely on my gun at the time.

Laura
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Old March 20, 2005, 02:22 PM   #13
XavierBreath
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I'm just curious why you would call 911 if it turned out to be a kinky couple?
Because public copulation is a crime where I live and I would not want my 9 year old child seeing thier acts. While thier act does not merit shooting them, it does merit criminal charges.

Not to mention if they got huffy, I would like to know help was on the way.
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Old March 20, 2005, 03:08 PM   #14
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Mastrogiacomo has a great point. Ask how many cops like responding to domestic violence situations? The apparent victim sometimes comes to the aid of her assailant/partner. CCW holders are not trained LEO's and according to Florida's laws, use of force is only justified in the prevention of a forcible felony where loss of life or severe bodily harm is imminent without intervention (Paraphrasing, not the exact law). With that said, I would call out from a distance and be ready to draw if necessary. The BG my be raping the victim at gun point and you had better be able to respond quickly. I would save the 911 call for after I have asessed the situation.
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Old March 20, 2005, 03:46 PM   #15
USP45usp
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Chris,

In relation to calling 911 first, let me first explain that I use cells instead of land lines. All of my cells have voice recognition, all I have to do is speak "911" and it calls for me. Since I use cells I also use the ear bud and mic. Even with the phone closed it will dial the voice numbers that I've programed as well as answer the phone if I say "Answer Call". So my hands are free.

Something to look into when you get a cell (or get a cell).

Wayne
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Old March 20, 2005, 06:13 PM   #16
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Once, a while back after some time with a federal law enforcement agency, I witnessed, while off duty, on a city street..a woman trying to exit the passenger door..the driver/guy was holding on to her..it seemed very hostile situation...they were yelling..she was yelling in spanish to let her go, etc(I assume)...after experiencing what goes and what didn't in my official capacities..I just drove around and headed home. There is no way I was going to put myself at liability for this type of situation. I believe it was just a simple domestic dispute, however, because of the politics of the situation, I just wasn't going to get involved. I would advise you to keep your distance and just call 911 and be a good witness, if you choose. Be careful. You think you're doing the "right" thing and end up wishing you kicked yourself in the ass and gotten your mind right..once you fire your weapon, all the evil ever commited in this world will not earn you an automatic free passage because of your supposed "righteous" act.( I assume).
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Old March 21, 2005, 06:42 PM   #17
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10 years ago...

...I woke up by a loud bang at 03:30 (am). My pulse was at 180 and I lay in bed still and listening. Then another smashing sound. I realized that there was a fight in the flat above mine. I opened the door and saw my neighbor (same floor) at his door. Both of us were frightened and torn out of deep sleep. We called the cops.

But they took some time and the fight, the booms and crashes went on. So I found I couldn't just wait and listen. My neighbor said he wouldn't go up since he had wife and kids in his flat (?).

So I took my heart in both hands and went upstairs alone to ring their doorbell. I didn't know these upper neighbours because I had just moved in. As I rang the door the fighting stopped. Nobody opened. Silence. I felt pretty naked, unarmed. All I had was (then) perfect fitness and 10yrs of martial arts (no I have a wife and kids, too). Didn't feel all too convincing. I expected a knife or at least someone at rage. Silence still. So I wend downstairs and kept on waiting for the cops. The fighting started again. I went up again. It stopped again.

Then, after 20 minutes or so the cops came. They banged at the door until it was opened. The situation was that the couple was fighting fiercely. Both were hurt, none of both wanted to file any charges. Furniture was borken, shattered etc. Cops said he was hurt more than she (little wildcat).

The next months I met both of them in the staircase occasionally. Both were extremely friendly.

I didn't hear a woman screaming that night. If I had, I might have felt forced to kick the door open and intervene. And as I said even with my fitness and my martial arts background I felt pretty naked. I went through this over and over again. Soon after that I bought my first handgun soon after. I can't just watch or listen.
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Old March 21, 2005, 08:42 PM   #18
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I HATE rapest, i think they are more sick and twisted than someone who comits murder. I would defenatly stop the atack and call the cops later. I guess i would try screaming and yelling, with gun drawn. Honastly i dont like to think about things like that.

I did try to break up a guy smaking a girl in a parking lot at a biliards club here in town. He was a big sucker to, smaking the hell out of this cute young girl by his truck and she had some girl friends with her beging the guy to stop and on the phone to the cops. I was unarmed becaus i could not cary in the club and was scared if i went to my car to get my gun he would have killed her. So i yelled at him called him all sorts of names and then bam he clocked me good. I aint no sissy but this guy was a monster but hey i new it was coming i tried to block his punch but honastly it just knocked my arm into my head. Then i stagerd and ran back still yelling at him why the girls friends pulled her to safty. He went back over to his truck saying some carzy stuff about killing the girl and me so i did all i could i ran and jumped on the dude to not let him get to the girl or the truck, we scuffeld for what felt like an hour but it was more like 2 mins before the cops showed up. He went to jail i went to the hospital for stiches, the girl had a broken jaw, nose, and eye socket. I would gladly take unther chance like that to save a inocent womens life from a crazy SOB like that guy again.
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Old March 21, 2005, 10:56 PM   #19
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There's lots of things to assess in a scenario like this.

I know my limitations. I'm no resemblance to 6'4" 250 pound John Wayne nor any of the characters he played. I'm simply a 50ish, paunchy, out of shape desk jockey with some moderately good shooting skills.

That said, if a woman was being brutally attacked/raped/etc as the original post indicated, I'd have to do something. At night, I'd first hit the BG in the eyes with the light from a Sure-Fire Xenon light and yell "Get on the ground!" over and over, hopeful he will think it's a police officer and comply or flee.

In daylight or a well lit area, my hand would sweep the cover aside, take a firm grip on the sidearm and I'd yell the same thing, while moving sideways to him (harder shot if he's armed). If he complies, command the woman to move away (if she can) and get him into a prone position, feet crossed, arms out flat, palms up.

If attempting to use a command voice and posture fail and he continues to "brutally" assault his victim I'd have to end his actions with the most reasonable force I could muster.

Obviously if he is using a knife, tire iron or similar weapon and refuses to comply the decision making process is simplified over him simply assaulting the woman.

Once some semblance of control is attained, I'd probably call 911.
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Old March 22, 2005, 03:13 AM   #20
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Hmmm. Woman being brutaly assaulted/raped. I would have to play this by ear. I guess the first thing to do is to size up the BG, and calculate my chances in a fight.

If they are to my liking, I would commence walking towards the scene, and order the BG to clear out in an authoritative manner. If he does, fine. If he gets up and decides to fight, beat the snot out of him, while doing as little permament damage as possible (get him unconscious as fast as possible).

If he ignores me, see previous action.

Then check the victim for injuries, and if necessary, place a 911 call. Then leave, without giving my name, before the LE shows up. Basicly play the anonymus hero.

If the chances of me winning the fight were not satisfactory, then make them so. Grab a tire iron/knife/bystander and execute the aformentioned actions.
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Old March 22, 2005, 10:45 AM   #21
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Quote:
Because public copulation is a crime where I live and I would not want my 9 year old child seeing thier acts.
So you are calling 911 "to protect the children"?
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Old March 22, 2005, 07:45 PM   #22
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If it appears that there is a situation like that, i would IMMEDIATELY draw my peice, and use my other hand for the cell phone. After briefly calling either 911 or your local PDs emergency number (which is a lot better than the former), i guess it would be dependant on how i felt that day/night.

If i were feeling energetic, id run to the man, and give him a hollywood line with the muzzle to his head.

If i were in a normal/sluggish mood, id approach him while yelling questions at him. "What the (insert your favorite word here) are you doing, jack?"

"Are you raping her? Is that whats happening?"

"Get the (insert) off of her."

"Dont move. Dont move, man."

Its best at this point to check to see if the girl is okay. You'll know right then and there if it was consentual or not. If shes crying, whatever, assume the worst. If not, lighten up a BIT, while badgering the man with questions.

Your job isnt to be the judge or jury, but rather to keep him covered and stalled until the police get there. At that point, its in their hands.
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Old March 22, 2005, 10:58 PM   #23
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Quote:
So you are calling 911 "to protect the children"?
OK, 2400, Public copulation is illegal. Don't do it in a public park. I don't have to give you a reason. As a matter of fact I don't have to respond to remarks like your's. :barf:
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Old March 22, 2005, 11:47 PM   #24
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My signature might suggest my actions if I could justify them...
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Old March 23, 2005, 10:09 AM   #25
pointfiveoh
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As was aforementioned, rape and consentual sex can look a lot alike. I'd call 911 first and challenge the couple from a safe distance. IF she's screaming for help after I challenge then whatever action has to be taken to stop the threat is warranted. If they're just having fun, that's still illegal and just like Xavier, I'd want them charged and I'm just a 21 year old college student. You do that stuff on your own land.
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