The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 21, 2005, 02:00 AM   #1
skinnygun
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 18, 2004
Posts: 257
M1 carbine .30 vs 762x39?

Is the 762x39mm (mini-30 or SKS) a better round at 100 yds then a M1 .30 cal, or are they close at that range?Thanks
skinnygun is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 02:20 AM   #2
BillCA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 28, 2004
Location: Silicon Valley, Ca
Posts: 7,087
The 7.62 Russian cartridge is a better round at 100 yards.

That said, the .30 Carbine is a much lighter, faster handling rifle than the SKS and similar guns. At 50 yards it'll do the job. Remember the 7.62x39 is a Russian "assault weapon" meant to be used in full-auto mode during a battle.

The U.S. M1 Carbine was a "light rifle" intended for command officers (Lt's and Capt's) to provide more power than the .45 ACP 1911 sidearm. It was also used by jeep & truck drivers as well as rear-eschelon perimeter guards and others who did not need a full sized battle rifle like the M1 Garand.
__________________
BillCA in CA (Unfortunately)
BillCA is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 02:30 AM   #3
gifted
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 5, 2004
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 411
Also consider the manufacture of the round and the gun. The Eastern guns, while well made, have looser tolerances and such that affect accuracy. Ammo like Wolf is generally the same, good stuff, but not the cream of the crop. Some of it is good, and the Mini will probably be of good quality(no experience with them), but you get what you pay for.

The M1 carbine will be more expensive, and so will the ammo for the most part. You get what you pay for, you just have to decide what you want. The M1 carbine will give a good gun, and the new Kahrs are going for about $4-500 or more. I don't know about the Minis. The SKS and AK clones will be decent guns for very good prices, generally less than $300.
gifted is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 09:31 AM   #4
Jeffro250
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 11, 2004
Posts: 286
The 7.62x39 is a better cartridge at any range...not just to 100. It shoots MUCH flatter, uses heavier, pointed bullets and shoots at a higher FPS rate...with that said though, either cartridge will kill deer and smaller sized game with ease at 100 yards or less.
Jeffro250 is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 10:25 AM   #5
WillBrayjr
Junior member
 
Join Date: September 26, 2004
Location: Northern Indiana
Posts: 1,881
7.62X39mm is the better of the two! The .30carbine round was a failure on the battle field. It lacked the long range of the rifle at the time and lacked the stopping power of the 45acp at close range. It does have merit though, it's a really fun plinker.
WillBrayjr is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 12:29 PM   #6
Tacoma
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 27, 2004
Location: SE New England
Posts: 613
Look for a SKS paratrooper/carbine if you want the power of the 7.62x39 with the handling ease of the M1 carbine. p.s . Price wise, the 30 cal M1 carbines ( and their ammo) are near twice the cost of a SKS . I'm not saying they are not worth it, just offering the price point for your consideration.
Tacoma is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 12:46 PM   #7
The Body Bagger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2004
Posts: 818
This is like comparing a .380 acp to a 9mm. Round diameters may be similar but thats where it ends. 7.62 x 39 is the superior round at all distances.
__________________
Rock Out With Your Glock Out
The Body Bagger is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 12:57 PM   #8
Jseime
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 31, 2004
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,775
doesnt matter

both guns are underpowered with the 7.62X39 having more ooomph. they are plinking guns not serious hunting rounds. i dont know about the US M1 carbine but the SKS is a simple, reliable gun. the SKS lacks accuracy of any sort but will knock over a tin can at say 50 yards
Jseime is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 01:19 PM   #9
gburner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 23, 2001
Location: at the intersection of naivete and cynicism
Posts: 1,365
7.62x39 is not an 'assault weapon' any more than a crowbar is. It is simply ammunition that has had application in the assault weapon format but is not confined to that nor is it an assault weapon in itself.

Overall, it is a 'better cartridge' than the .30 carbine and is perfectly capable of taking game as large as deer as far as 150 yards (or longer wit a scope).

An SKS is a battle rifle, not an assault weapon, which will consistently produce 3 to 4 inch groups at 100 yards; better with hand loads. Most people who dispairage its accuracy are passing on what they've heard and not first hand experience.

All things considered, I'd much rather depend on an SKS for food and/or defense than an M1 carbine. YMMV
__________________
'You don't like guns? What other common household tools do you have an irrational loathing for?'
gburner is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 07:09 PM   #10
smince
Junior member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2004
Location: Northeast Alabama
Posts: 2,580
Quote:
the SKS lacks accuracy of any sort but will knock over a tin can at say 50 yards
HUH?????????

The tin can I just pulled out of my cabinet measures 2 7/8" by 4.5". At 50 yards, that seems to be accurate to me.
smince is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 07:37 PM   #11
RAY WOODROW 3RD
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 11, 1999
Location: Beverly, N.J. U.S.A.
Posts: 784
7.62...

I am partial to the SKS and have fallen in love with them.

Next to no recoil...
Accurate enough to hit bowling pins from 50 yards out...
Highly dependable...

I have 2 Norinco SKS's and for all the badmouthing the round and this make of gun get (which is totaly false with my experience), you don't know what you are missing!!

Oh...Wait a minute! If I want to get MORE Norinco's I should just shut up.

Above statement adjustment:

The SKS's suck. Especially the Chinese Norinco's. I will take them off of your hands if you need to dump them. It is for your own good.

RW3
__________________
__________________
"MOST talk the talk but can NEVER walk the walk."

"The key to success in ANY battle is effective communications."

From NJ? Check out "njcsd.com"
RAY WOODROW 3RD is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 08:24 PM   #12
Tom2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5,648
Deer shooter?

I have a GI carbine and an older Chinese SKS. I could see shooting deer with hunting bullets in the SKS, but I would not expect to take deer with the carbine if I had a choice. That said you can get soft point and hollow point bullets to reload the carbine with. I would say the lighter carbine with proper bullets would be good for defensive purposes. Mine will outshoot any SKS I have ever had at 100 yds. Just barely though. It is not a target gun but easier to carry and shoot with the lower powered round. However mine is from the days when carbines were reasonably priced so if I had a notion that I needed something not too painful to lose or damage, the SKS would do. Not as pretty as the carbine though!
Tom2 is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 08:47 PM   #13
Rojoe67
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: Wolverine State
Posts: 767
SKS and 30 carbine comparison

I like both these weapons. The SKS is by far more energy and velocity than the little carbine. I wouldn't want to be on the wrong end of the muzzle of either rifles out to 100 yards........I find it interesting to look at ballistics from ammunition companies. Maybe it would be worth crunching some ballistics on Federal, Remington, Winchester, Cor-Bon, and so on.... The data is there and worth the reading if your wanting to answer your own question on 30 carbine vs 7.62 x 39. Both are nice but there is a good difference in what each can do.
Rojoe67 is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 09:16 PM   #14
shep854
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 4, 2004
Location: Birmingham AL
Posts: 555
Comparing the M1 carbine and the 7.62x39 is apples to oranges. The carbine round is basically a hot pistol round, while the 7.62x39 is a light rifle cartridge.

The M1 carbine was designed and intended to be a glorified pistol (think of a Personal Defence Weapon like the FN P90). It got in trouble when troops tried to use it as a light-weight battle rifle.
__________________
Powder smoke- The Smell of FREEDOM!
I don't shoot to kill; I shoot to live.
Registration? NEVER!!
shep854 is offline  
Old March 21, 2005, 11:55 PM   #15
artsmom
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 24, 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 314
The 7.62 x 39mm is a more powerful cartridge, but the sights on an M1 Carbine are superior.

In the book, "A Rifleman went to War", a former state high power champion preferred the Carbine (with AP ammo) to the Garand while serving in Burma, mainly because he thought the carbine was quicker to get in action, and a light cartridge shot well and carried in the hands would trump a big cartridge shot well and carried on a sling. Shorty Powers, one of the "Band of Brothers", successfully outduelled a German sniper with his carbine, and a close friend used his then recently "acquired" M1 Carbine to drop a cow elk shortly after leaving Korea.

Of course, we have to figure out if all of this was done because it was an M1 carbine, or in spite of it. It does tell us that an M1 can kill big game and be used successfully when precision shooting is required.

After all this, I would say an unissued Yugo SKS trumps a new Kahr M1 when the difference in price is spent in cheap 7.62 ammo...

..unless one or the other trips your fancy, because this is America, and no one needs to justify except "I want one.":-)
artsmom is offline  
Old March 22, 2005, 12:18 AM   #16
CaptainRazor
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 16, 2005
Location: Charleston, WV
Posts: 302
I'll have to go with the general opinions here, 7.62x39 is the superior cartridge.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have an M1 carbine, but for the prices they fetch, and the general availability, it's just not going to happen anytime soon for me.
SKS not accurate? I posted this pic over at the SKS boards, granted, it was at 25 yards, but I wanted to give the rifle a fair chance (my abilities not being what I'd like for them to be for long range open sights).
Next time I have it at the range, I'll try some 100 yrd stuff.
Ignore the one high and to the left, I'm positive that was operator error.
This was done with cheap ammo and a sand bag rest.

Yugo SKS target
I would also agree that the SKS sights are "less than desirable".
The GI M1 Carbine does have better sights.
CaptainRazor is offline  
Old March 22, 2005, 12:58 AM   #17
gak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2005
Location: Aridzona
Posts: 2,767
To those who have been describing the M1 carbine as having had limited distribution among the troops in WWII (e.g., jeep drivers, rear echelons, lt's and cap's, etc), this may have been true of original intent (and distribution was initially primarily among the officers)--as was the design intended to "replace" the 45 as a more effective "side arm," -- however look at 1) production numbers (enormous, suggesting much more widespread use) and 2) any photos and newsreel/film footage in particular of marines in combat in Tarawa, Guad, Iwo, Okinawa, Burma, etc., lending credence to those numbers and you see many, many carbines being used as "major" battle weapons (whether you want to classify as "battle rifle" or not) -- reported in those conditions to be very effective, at routing out enemy from their "caves" and trenches, popping snipers from trees, etc. Their high rate of fire--even in M1 vs later M2 form (ability to get rapid succession 15 rounds --or increments of--off in semi-auto form) and previously mentioned very light and handy configuration made them very effective in these close to moderate distance battlefield conditions--of which there were many, many examples. When an '06 shot was required, an '06 was used. Friends of my father (a B-17/29 pilot) who did see ground action (and got him his GI carbine I inherited) reported same "the good ol Carbine," suggesting the troops in these (Pacific, and perhaps France, etc.) theatres had a real affection for. A Garand '06 it was not, but as many have pointed out in other threads never intended to be. It also weighed about half and had twice the firepower and a much better/more effective cartridge delivery system (reloadable 15 round stick (and later 30 rd) mags vs the clumsy 8 rd abomination Garand "clip") It is true that in the cold Korean conditions where the enemy was prone to very heavy qulited clothing, the blunt-nosed, relatively low powered carbine round did not fare as well--and got a (likely deserved) bad rep as a result. As to the x39 comparisons, yes the 39 is a better, more effective round than the carbine, but again heavier, not as quick to bring to target, etc. Every weapon has their place. If I had to deer hunt with either or go to battle in primarily medium distance situations, I'd take the x39 hands down. Personal "home" defense or close quarters "ratting" out varmints of the two, four and zero legged variety, give me a carbine with a 15-30 clip full of SPs/HPs. As close to the wieldability of a "sidearm" as a rifle ever got. Not a 39 made that is as handy--nor, like the Garand but to a lesser degree, would you expect them to be. To me, our troops would have been better off with a mix of 20% Thompsons, 50% AK/Mini 30 (x39) types and (also had they been in production of course) 20% M-14s (but,ok, Garands), 10% BARs (later on, M60s) in their squads/platoons, but given the mix they had, a lot preferred the M-1 Carbine over lugging around that boat anchor 8 rounder--at least in many of the close quarters battle conditions they faced--and especially in the 95 degree/95% humidity of the south Pacific and Southeast Asian jungles.
That said, I'm sure also there are more than a few who didn't return from Korea because a quilted ChiCom kept coming at them after being shot with a carbine, and others that did come back to tell about it because of their trusty Garands--as they would also have with a good x39.

Last edited by gak; March 22, 2005 at 09:20 AM. Reason: clarification/addition
gak is offline  
Old March 22, 2005, 06:12 AM   #18
soulska
Member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2005
Posts: 18
Between the 2 the 7.62X39mm is by far better. I own both a Yugo SKS and a M1 carbine and the SKS is always picked to go to the range everytime. I cant even remember the last time I took out the carbine. The ammo for the carbine is so much more than the Russian 7.62X39mm.
soulska is offline  
Old March 22, 2005, 06:21 AM   #19
LAK
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 14, 2002
Posts: 2,251
I know one South Vietnamese Major who said he preferred an M2 to anything else. I have yet to hear of anyone who was in Korea speak of even lighter .30 caliber bullets (7.62x25) when coming out of the short barrel of the PPSh-41 as being anything to trifle with.

There is no doubt that the 7.62x39 is a more powerful round, but I think the M1 is one of the handiest pieces ever made, and would be quite happy to have one around stoked with hardball.
LAK is offline  
Old March 22, 2005, 08:30 AM   #20
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 35,982
"the SKS lacks accuracy of any sort but will knock over a tin can at say 50 yards"

My SKS will turn in 1" to 1.5" groups at 100 yards all day long.



The M 1 Carbine was never intended to be a battle rifle. It was intended to be issued to support and rear echelon troops whose duty roles required them to be armed (normally with a pistol). The desire was to give them a better weapon that wasn't as bulky as a main battle rifle.

Problem was that when the front line troops got hold of some, the Carbine was given a battlefield promotion.

Where the carbine ammo really struggled was against soldiers who were wearing heavy winter clothing, especially the quilted uniforms worn by the Chinese and North Koreans.

Otherwise it was a passable short-range weapon.

I'd still prefer the SKS if I were going into a combat situation, though.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old March 22, 2005, 08:52 AM   #21
Rojoe67
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: Wolverine State
Posts: 767
Mike is 100% correct here.... and

A friend of mine; a Korean medivac chopper pilot recounted this story of his time in combat with a .30 carbine. Al explained that on one of his missions in no mans land he took small arms fire and crash landed in a opening. As soon as he got out he saw enemy working towards him. With his carbine in hand he started a 6 day excape and evassion drill. He engaged twice with the enemy. His ammo was limited so his shots were do or die (his exact wording). He explained that out of 5 soldiers he shot at, he downed 3 of them. Those three were within 65-75 yards guessing range. He said the other 2 were hit and kept moving toward him. It was winter and they were in heavy winter parka type coats. Al did manage to make it or I wouldn't have got this story. He said he was glad he had the .30 but wished he had the big brother rifle. Al, was shot down one other time near the line and managed to get back to American forces that same day. This whole friendship started when he saw me shooting my SKS-45 at the range one day. He said he respected that rifle and what it could do. He wasn't fond of looking at it and I can assume he might of saw what it did to some of his buddies. Lastly he told me his favorite moments during his time in Korea was when he got mounted up with 30's on his bubble chopper and went in straffing the hell out of the commies.... He said it sorta gave him a feeling of revenge for what they did to some of his buddies.
Rojoe67 is offline  
Old March 22, 2005, 09:14 AM   #22
The Body Bagger
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 27, 2004
Posts: 818
Quote:
mounted up with 30's on his bubble chopper and went in straffing the hell out of the commies....
I just love the sound of screaming commies in the morning.......sounds like.....
__________________
Rock Out With Your Glock Out

Last edited by The Body Bagger; March 22, 2005 at 09:58 AM.
The Body Bagger is offline  
Old March 22, 2005, 09:41 AM   #23
gak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2005
Location: Aridzona
Posts: 2,767
Ditto Mike. Today the M-1 (Carbine) is mostly a fun plinker and pretty darn good home defense and varmint control weapon. Also good at rattler control over the years before it become most un-pc as development started encroaching in the desert and one gained 2 legged neighbors! I've enjoyed my father's Inland immensely over the years--brought back brand new from Guam behind his B-29 seat--and he picked up another Inland companion from a GI friend. Dead-on reliable feed with half-way decent ammo and GI mags, both of them very accurate "within their range" as they say, but that range surprisingly farther than it is often credited for. You notice I did not say "man stopper range" out to 500 yards! And oh those lovely sights, some of--if not the--very best open sights I've ever seen.
gak is offline  
Old March 22, 2005, 08:45 PM   #24
Tom2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 23, 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 5,648
Carbine bullets

What the carbine needs is a real nice bullet for handloading. I mean like a Hornady XTP or something. They make a 90 gr. 30 cal XTP but nothing in 110 gr. or so. Then there are the Speers with the exposed lead jhp but all I can think of is the damage to that soft lead tip. THen there are those big bags of 100 JSP bullets with the soft lead tips-do those expand much? We would buy if they would make! I have only seen commercial "hunting" ammo for the carbine in soft point configuration.
Tom2 is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:39 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13225 seconds with 7 queries