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Old March 23, 2005, 03:58 PM   #151
yorec
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Ah - I've seen the "signed one" system before, long ago and forgot about it - neat idea. I need a collection, but doubt I could get one off ya in a fair match on my best day...

But still nothing posted so far to convince me anything was amiss in this shooting - sorry, Hood.

Artsmom - :barf:

Y'all may wonder why I have taken the time to post at length with Hood when my usual tact for sensationalized anti cop BS is what Artsmom got - a first honest attempt and then ignore 'em. They aren't going to change no matter what kind of facts you present and the effort is not worth it...

The Hood's in the same boat, but there is something different here - he did loose a friend and I can empathize. My condolences are real and I wish him well. In fact, I hope he hangs around and we can discuss other matters any time he'd like as I'm rather impressed with his openness and stick-to-itness...

However, I still disagree with him vehemently in this case and will not temper my opinion in the face of his loss. This shooting was not criminal in nature. There was no murder. Was it tragic? Yes. Was it violent? Yes. Was it unneccessary? Probably, but that lies with the dead man more than likely. Could it have been avoided? I don't know, not enough facts. Are the police at fault? Not as far as I can see and I don't believe there has been a big coverup.

I've been on the leading end of many an entry team such as this, but never had to shoot anyone - whew. But it could have happened. It could have happened if I had been in Fullmer's place on this raid. But I can't tell for sure because I don't know what the threat was that he responded to... no one will tell us so far. Seems most are too busy yelling that cops are "out of control" to really fact find. Regardless, I'm glad I wasn't in his shoes. Yeah - I can have a little sympathy for the cop too - I believe he's suffering just as The Hood is. Probably a lot more similiarly than anyone would realize.
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Old March 23, 2005, 04:19 PM   #152
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People I don't have to make believers out of non of you, The facts that I know about this cover up and shooting is way over most people heads.

Today "we" The Pace's and I have got a call, The Citizen Aid of Iowa is looking in to this. Now Senator Harkin give us there # and we were incontact with them a couple months ago. As they watch and kept an eye on things, and are now going to do there own investgion to to the shooting, and they have the power to look at any paper and ask any question and the power to get a answer.

We will find true justice Because there are people with morals out there.

now you tell me how a bullet cuts a man cheek and goes in his chest and down to that place between the 1 & 2 hole and say it wasn't a kill shot. Cops should not be shooting a man down on all 4's in the face.

Take your Blinders off, the second shot was murder, by anybody's book.
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Old March 23, 2005, 04:34 PM   #153
yorec
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Already covereed that, Mr. Hood. From my post above:
Quote:
The nature of the wounds is not unusual for a .223 and the placement of the shots likewise unremarkable. A .223 will tumble and roll once it enters the body - it's designed to do that and travelling from neck to waistline while the subject is standing upright is not unheard of. The clipped chin leads me to believe that the shot which caused this was the second one, striking the chin as it was lowered due to the impact of the first round in the chest and as the body began to tilt forward as Pace fell. This intitial impact (especially if it glanced off bone) may even have started the round to roll prematurely and been cause of some of the downward travel. His fall forward would have brought the body into line even better for the wound's trajectory as described.

Firing a pair of shots in rapid succession is not unusual and is even a standard of trainning called a "double tap." The close distance at which the shots were fired would allow for an even faster second shot. The stippling and burns present are normal and tell us that the shots were in fact fired at very close range - I'd guess under ten feet.

I would assume that as an archer you've done some hunting and know that when you shoot a deer, that deer does not fall down dead. It jumps and runs. People are similar - they continue moving in the same direction with purpose for some time after being shot. (unless suffering a wound sufficient to kill instantly) A .223 to the chest is not an instantly fatal wound and a second would be very reasonable if the suspect continues to threaten.

So whether the second shot was fired because Pace continued moving forward and was still perceived as a threat; or whether is was fired in conjunction with the first shot as an initial attempt to stop a perceived threat is unknown. But either would be acceptable. The question is still why they were fired - what was the threat?
Conclusion: A second shot is not indicitive of murderous intent.
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Old March 23, 2005, 04:47 PM   #154
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The Hood - I suspect this will go down as a good shoot. I do wonder about the convenience of coincidence in getting that search warrant, but pretty clever police work is one way to look at it.
I just hope that you consider finding justice to be the same as finding the truth. I have no dog in this fight either way. I do look down upon those who have a cavalier attitude towards the deaths of others and who use a "he probably deserved it anyway" attitude about your friend. Two of my close friends are LEO's and I can assure you they do NOT want to kill anybody unless forced to. And they both look down derisively on "cowboy cops." Most cowboy cops are not very good cops is what they tell me. Don't automatically assume everybody in LE wants to cover up for each other ALL the time, the blue wall has broken down a bit in recent years. Let's all hope when the investigations are over, that almost everybody is satisfied there was a sincere effort to determine the truth.
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Old March 23, 2005, 04:50 PM   #155
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Hood,

Quote:
Today "we" The Pace's and I have got a call, The Citizen Aid of Iowa is looking in to this. Now Senator Harkin give us there # and we were incontact with them a couple months ago. As they watch and kept an eye on things, and are now going to do there own investgion to to the shooting, and they have the power to look at any paper and ask any question and the power to get a answer.
This is what I essentially what I advacated many posts ago .

If this group finds wrong doing then you have the means to act upon it.

I also second what Yorec wrote:
Quote:
In fact, I hope he hangs around and we can discuss other matters any time he'd like as I'm rather impressed with his openness and stick-to-itness...
We aren't against you here, we just don't "see" what you are seeing. We don't have the closeness or the evidence that you have. If the LEO's are proven of wrong doing in a civil court or if any other investigations turn up fraud on the Grand Jury then I hope that Justice will prevail.

Good luck on your endeavor and if it turns out that you are correct, then I hope that justice is done.

Wayne
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Old March 23, 2005, 05:13 PM   #156
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Quote:
A recap of what we have learned from those who support this SWAT team action:

The wisdom and judgement of grand juries, courts and judges should be respected as the last word on criminal wrongdoing concerning police officers. However they are a waste of time and effort when it comes to criminal suspects, and they can easily be replaced self appointed execution squads.
There are SO many causes out there that could use a champion....why not pick one of them instead of a dead drug dealer? There's the baby Harp Seals.....Elephants killed just for their ivory so we can have nice pistol grips, there's the rain forest, kids who can't read in Appalachia.....why don't you pick one of those???
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Old March 23, 2005, 05:24 PM   #157
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Hood,
We've read the raid started at 6:15 am. Do you have the document that shows when the 9-1-1 call (or I guess police radio) to the ambulance was placed? I remember reading it somewhere. Do you have the official documentation. Bare in mind, you will have to show the dates etc. If you take a picture with your digital camera and it won't fit. PM me, and I will give you my E-Mail address. I can resize it in a way that keeps it large enough and legible... I think THAT in itself is proof or some wrongdoing....

The fact that they had a helicopter on hand, without an ambulance on standby makes me wonder how "risky" this raid was really supposed to be....

You haven't offered up an good proof yet though.... I don't want you to compromise your case, but I don't think documents being shown on the internet makes the inadmissable to court. Of course, I'm an engineer, not a lawyer....

Bo
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Old March 23, 2005, 05:50 PM   #158
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Quote:
The fact that they had a helicopter on hand, without an ambulance on standby makes me wonder how "risky" this raid was really supposed to be....
-I've been on many high risk hits, never had an ambulance on syand-by. That's why you have a medic on hand and/or the most direct route to the nearest Level I trauma center in your OpOrd.
-Helos provide eyes in the sky and retrans comms. Good asset
-There was a warrant issued for this arrest. Meaning a JUDGE signed off on it.
-
Quote:
Authorities said they were at the house to arrest Pace on a warrant charging him with possession of a firearm by a felon
and
Quote:
At a Thursday press conference to discuss the shooting, investigators displayed 24 rifles, shotguns and handguns taken from the Pace residence. Some of them were loaded at the time they were found, investigators said.

Investigators said they also found an operational methamphetamine lab, a small quantity of meth and 2 pounds of marijuana at the farmhouse, two miles southeast of Glenwood
Sounds pretty risky to me.
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Old March 23, 2005, 05:54 PM   #159
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rojoe 67, I am not a drug dealer or a drug user. I have never so much as smoked a single joint in my entire life, or taken any other illegal drugs. I have had one moving violation and one parking ticket in my life. I have a nephew who is a police officer, and I like him well enough to take him hunting. I worked with meth users and watched their teeth fall out and lives fall apart.
Here are my issues:

Grand jury finds Fullmer innocent, fine. Please share the testimony with me so I can have the same confidence that they have in the propriety of SWAT raid.

I find "No Comment" unacceptable from the police. I can imagine if I came back from a service call or sales trip that was had customers in an uproar and told my boss "No comment".

I believe this guy was arrested numerous times without a SWAT team or forced entry. He had never resisted arrest that I could find. So, did the "lost" police gun play a part in this? I would like to hear someone say "No, the lost gun was not a factor in sending a SWAT team this time.", and then explain why it was called for this time.

Does anybody disagree with any of the above?
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Old March 23, 2005, 07:12 PM   #160
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Bo Hunter
I been saying all along that the door was kick'd in more like 5:45 and the people that live up the road said more like 5:30.

First 911 call at 6:20

you see they told the withness they had no radio with them and would call for a ambulance when they get back at to their car.......this story was repeated by the sheriff to Theron Pace two days later.

You all got to understand that I have been working this case since day one and yes, I may not be giving you what you want..do you want me to start with what..There's so many Iowa code's broken, we could go another 7 pages just on code's broken.

if was died, why did they move him. the code's say, DO NOT MOVE! if he wasn't died, why didn't someond rander attention to him???? THE LAW SAYS THAT"S #1 THING TO DO! EITHER WAS DONE.

with the shot to the mouth. he had splitters of bones and teeth in his chest, he hand dirt on his hands from when he was shot on all 4's. There was no weapon within 20 ft of him and he only wearing a T-Shirt, no pants. They had sniper around the house, helacopter in the sky(which will prove the time as soon as we get that flight report back. They don't want to give that one up to easy! But!!! laws are law and the freedon of info is on our side

Guess what people I know thw swat team they like to shoot bows so as the Hood of all Hoods, who do you think they wanted to teach them well The Hood by all means..................

There boss lived across the street from me for 5 years and our kids played together. I saw and talked with them darn neere daily

I know thier mental state and their wishes...hehehe

This is just a big game to them and they think there above the law and there isnt a soul that can touch them. THEY ARE THE ELITE!

but no body gets away with murder,
But
OJ and now Robert Blake
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Old March 23, 2005, 07:14 PM   #161
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artsmom

Don't worry,,Brett did enough for you

They call this double bong'in

picture to big,,or the bong'ss are

I can take it and nothing bothers me people. I'm a wiered breed.......
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Old March 23, 2005, 07:52 PM   #162
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I think skepticism is a healthy thing

I think that more information is needed before passing judgement on the situation. As I see it, someone saying "no comment" is more damaging than telling the truth. As for wanting to demonize media with a blanket statement that they are all bad, perhaps one should take a step back and think about that. I am a part-time reporter for a local weekly newspaper in my rural Missouri area. I am also a part-time Class 01 FFL gun shop owner and gunsmith. Not all media workers are evil nor all all law enforcement officers good.

From my experiences in life, I keep a skeptical and critical eye on all government employees and institutions, just as I don't believe everything that is in the media. My personal experiences tell me that the generation of law enforcement officers we have now is different than the ones before. My county's deputies all make up the SWAT team. They also present cocky, king's men class personalities to the public, even at crime watch meetings that I attend. At a public open house for area crime watches at our county justice center, had I a tape recorder, I would have had good damning quote from the head deputy. He made a statement that he feels that anything that moves during a raid is fair game to blow apart, even animals that are locked in kennels and cannot do harm to anyone. This same deputy abused his girlfriend by beating the snot out of her and verbally abusing her. The only reason he is not in jail is because he is good at threatening people into silence.

I am willing to listen to all information, but I am not going to give a blanket "good boys" to all law enforcement and government employees nor will I say "bad boys" to all media. I want all the information I can get before I make my decision. So far, I see gaping holes on both sides, though it sounds like those holes will be dealt with in an investigation. The truth will find the light.
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Old March 23, 2005, 08:03 PM   #163
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Quote:
Grand jury finds Fullmer innocent, fine.
You could do your kids a bigger favor by picking up a book on constitutional law, and reading it with them, than by coming to an internet bulletin board for answers when they ask you "Why did they shoot that man?"

Grand juries do not find anyone "innocent".
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Old March 23, 2005, 08:25 PM   #164
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Hood,keep us posted on how your going on your quest.

If you could post a few of the Major Ia criminal codes that were violated during this raid i would be interested in seeing that.

Iowa procedural Rule # 3 deals with Iowa grand juries and their duties & charge. I suggest you read those rules before you cry foul about the members who were impaneled. Since their identities are supposed to be secret, how do you know the occupations and or what their spouses do for a living?

What is your motive in all of this? Has the immediate family requested your help? Don't they have a lawyer to handel their legal matters concerning Mr. Pace death?

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Old March 23, 2005, 09:59 PM   #165
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big ones first

7 of the 8 broken

These are the laws laws by the U.S. Congress

Code of Conduct for Law Enforcement Officials
Adopted by General Assembly resolution 34/169 of 17 December 1979
Article 1
Law enforcement officials shall at all times fulfil the duty imposed upon them by law, by serving the community and by protecting all persons against illegal acts, consistent with the high degree of responsibility required by their profession. Commentary:
(a) The term "law enforcement officials', includes all officers of the law, whether appointed or elected, who exercise police powers, especially the powers of arrest or detention.

(b) In countries where police powers are exercised by military authorities, whether uniformed or not, or by State security forces, the definition of law enforcement officials shall be regarded as including officers of such services.

(c) Service to the community is intended to include particularly the rendition of services of assistance to those members of the community who by reason of personal, economic, social or other emergencies are in need of immediate aid.

(d) This provision is intended to cover not only all violent, predatory and harmful acts, but extends to the full range of prohibitions under penal statutes. It extends to conduct by persons not capable of incurring criminal liability.

Article 2
In the performance of their duty, law enforcement officials shall respect and protect human dignity and maintain and uphold the human rights of all persons.
Commentary:

(a) The human rights in question are identified and protected by national and international law. Among the relevant international instruments are the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the Declaration on the Protection of All Persons from Being Subjected to Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, the United Nations Declaration on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid, the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, the Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners and the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations.

(b) National commentaries to this provision should indicate regional or national provisions identifying and protecting these rights.

Article 3
Law enforcement officials may use force only when strictly necessary and to the extent required for the performance of their duty.
Commentary:

(a) This provision emphasizes that the use of force by law enforcement officials should be exceptional; while it implies that law enforcement officials may be authorized to use force as is reasonably necessary under the circumstances for the prevention of crime or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders, no force going beyond that may be used.

(b) National law ordinarily restricts the use of force by law enforcement officials in accordance with a principle of proportionality. It is to be understood that such national principles of proportionality are to be respected in the interpretation of this provision. In no case should this provision be interpreted to authorize the use of force which is disproportionate to the legitimate objective to be achieved.

(c) The use of firearms is considered an extreme measure. Every effort should be made to exclude the use of firearms, especially against children. In general, firearms should not be used except when a suspected offender offers armed resistance or otherwise jeopardizes the lives of others and less extreme measures are not sufficient to restrain or apprehend the suspected offender. In every instance in which a firearm is discharged, a report should be made promptly to the competent authorities.

Article 4
Matters of a confidential nature in the possession of law enforcement officials shall be kept confidential , unless the performance of duty or the needs of justice strictly require otherwise.
Commentary:

By the nature of their duties, law enforcement officials obtain information which may relate to private lives or be potentially harmful to the interests, and especially the reputation, of others. Great care should be exercised in safeguarding and using such information, which should be disclosed only in the performance of duty or to serve the needs of justice. Any disclosure of such information for other purposes is wholly improper.

Article 5
No law enforcement official may inflict, instigate or tolerate any act of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, nor may any law enforcement official invoke superior orders or exceptional circumstances such as a state of war or a threat of war, a threat to national security, internal political instability or any other public emergency as a justification of torture or other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment .
Commentary:

(a) This prohibition derives from the Declaration on the Protection of All Persons from Being Subjected to Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, adopted by the General Assembly, according to which: "[Such an act is] an offence to human dignity and shall be condemned as a denial of the purposes of the Charter of the United Nations and as a violation of the human rights and fundamental freedoms proclaimed in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights [and other international human rights instruments]."

(b) The Declaration defines torture as follows:

". . . torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted by or at the instigation of a public official on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or confession, punishing him for an act he has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating him or other persons. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to, lawful sanctions to the extent consistent with the Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners."

(c) The term "cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment" has not been defined by the General Assembly but should be interpreted so as to extend the widest possible protection against abuses, whether physical or mental.
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Old March 23, 2005, 10:01 PM   #166
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Article 6
Law enforcement officials shall ensure the full protection of the health of persons in their custody and, in particular, shall take immediate action to secure medical attention whenever required.
Commentary:

(a) "Medical attention", which refers to services rendered by any medical personnel, including certified medical practitioners and paramedics, shall be secured when needed or requested.

(b) While the medical personnel are likely to be attached to the law enforcement operation, law enforcement officials must take into account the judgement of such personnel when they recommend providing the person in custody with appropriate treatment through, or in consultation with, medical personnel from outside the law enforcement operation.

(c) It is understood that law enforcement officials shall also secure medical attention for victims of violations of law or of accidents occurring in the course of violations of law.

Article 7
Law enforcement officials shall not commit any act of corruption. They shall also rigorously oppose and combat all such acts.
Commentary:

(a) Any act of corruption, in the same way as any other abuse of authority, is incompatible with the profession of law enforcement officials. The law must be enforced fully with respect to any law enforcement official who commits an act of corruption, as Governments cannot expect to enforce the law among their citizens if they cannot, or will not, enforce the law against their own agents and within their agencies.

(b) While the definition of corruption must be subject to national law, it should be understood to encompass the commission or omission of an act in the performance of or in connection with one's duties, in response to gifts, promises or incentives demanded or accepted, or the wrongful receipt of these once the act has been committed or omitted.

(c) The expression "act of corruption" referred to above should be understood to encompass attempted corruption.

Article 8
Law enforcement officials shall respect the law and the present Code. They shall also, to the best of their capability, prevent and rigorously oppose any violations of them.
Law enforcement officials who have reason to believe that a violation of the present Code has occurred or is about to occur shall report the matter to their superior authorities and, where necessary, to other appropriate authorities or organs vested with reviewing or remedial power.

Commentary:

(a) This Code shall be observed whenever it has been incorporated into national legislation or practice. If legislation or practice contains stricter provisions than those of the present Code, those stricter provisions shall be observed.

(b) The article seeks to preserve the balance between the need for internal discipline of the agency on which public safety is largely dependent, on the one hand, and the need for dealing with violations of basic human rights, on the other. Law enforcement officials shall report violations within the chain of command and take other lawful action outside the chain of command only when no other remedies are available or effective. It is understood that law enforcement officials shall not suffer administrative or other penalties because they have reported that a violation of this Code has occurred or is about to occur.

(c) The term "appropriate authorities or organs vested with reviewing or remedial power" refers to any authority or organ existing under national law, whether internal to the law enforcement agency or independent thereof, with statutory, customary or other power to review grievances and complaints arising out of violations within the purview of this Code.

(d) In some countries, the mass media may be regarded as performing complaint review functions similar to those described in subparagraph (c) above. Law enforcement officials may, therefore, be justified if, as a last resort and in accordance with the laws and customs of their own countries and with the provisions of article 4 of the present Code, they bring violations to the attention of public opinion through the mass media.

(e) Law enforcement officials who comply with the provisions of this Code deserve the respect, the full support and the co-operation of the community and of the law enforcement agency in which they serve, as well as the law enforcement profession.
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Old March 23, 2005, 10:10 PM   #167
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and like I said, by the Mills county sheriff's not putting the withness name on none of their reports and they had her in their hands 7 hours and moved her the jail house, that is a felony

and for the county attorney to accept their report and send it to the grand jury, she also commented a felony.

and these people will be dealt with by the system they think they control
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Old March 23, 2005, 10:22 PM   #168
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Hood, give it up, bro. Whatever your agenda is, you've shot more than your wad on this thread. I'll concede that you have a bunch of papers, the crime report, CSI chalk and the like ready to be posted to inflate your agenda. As long as you concede that this is utterly f*n rediculous and that your long-winded, back woods Mattlock presentation is wasting a bunch of forum space.
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Old March 23, 2005, 11:13 PM   #169
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somebody might as well use the space hehe
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Old March 23, 2005, 11:19 PM   #170
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Hood, you don't have a clue as the workings of the judaical system, but you're going to get educated in all its intricacies as you trod down its path.

You can't see the forrest from the trees, if you fell on a pin you would be blind in both eyes.

You have the right to remain silent - do you have the ability?

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This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. I must master itas i master my life.Without me my rifle is useless, without my rifle i am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I Will. Before God i swear this creed. My rifle and myself are defenders of my country. We are masters of our enemy. We are saviours of my life. So be it until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.
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Old March 23, 2005, 11:32 PM   #171
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you know my teaches never called on me because I could talk till the bell rang..hehe

as I was talking to the Mayor the other day, he said he had a meeting to get to..........He missed it

he just kept talking to me..............

and I never been lost in the forest.................

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Old March 24, 2005, 03:17 AM   #172
LAK
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I'd still like to know how Leber "lost his gun" to an informant - and how they were sure enough that it had wound up at Pace's residence to send a SWAT team there to "find it". This is surely the key to what started this ball rolling.

I am trying - really hard to figure, guess - or imagine - how a peace officer "loses his gun" (or perhaps just "a gun") to a drug informant. "Left it in the crapper"? "Dropped it between the cushions on the couch watching TV"?

Or perhaps it was simply given to the "informant".
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Old March 24, 2005, 06:09 AM   #173
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Exactly.
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Old March 24, 2005, 06:41 AM   #174
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Quote:
I'd still like to know how Leber "lost his gun" to an informant - and how they were sure enough that it had wound up at Pace's residence to send a SWAT team there to "find it". This is surely the key to what started this ball rolling.

I am trying - really hard to figure, guess - or imagine - how a peace officer "loses his gun" (or perhaps just "a gun") to a drug informant. "Left it in the crapper"? "Dropped it between the cushions on the couch watching TV"?

Or perhaps it was simply given to the "informant".
How the gun was stolen and how the police learned where it ended up was detailed already in one of the articles linked to from this thread. It was stolen from a police vehicle and the thief admitted to stealing it and told the Police what he did with it.

http://www.omaha.com/toolbox/story_p...p?u_id=1362321
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Old March 24, 2005, 08:22 AM   #175
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perhaps it was simply given to the "informant
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