Black Eye for SWAT Teams, Police

[The Hood]

Just got this email, now that the grand jury is over, they got to release the dirt>>>------->
i have the autopsy, he was bending forward from the waist or on his hands and knees when shot the second time. the bullet's trajectories were in a straight line. the second shot stippled his forhead, cheeks and nose, which i believe is a pin point type burn and 'grazed his chin ( 3/4 gash) went into his chest thru two parts of the heart, lung liver kidney and lodged just beneath the skin between his b**** and anus.

[yorec]

Still no proof that this was murder as you claim. I was hoping you could produce something more to work with - to guess at - but with what we have here I'll go out on a limb and see what the "evidence" we have so far says...

Officers entered Pace's residence with a search warrant. Like it or not, they had legal standing to be there.

Fullmer entered the residence and met face to face with Pace. He then shot Pace twice in the chest. The second round clipped Pace's chin. We have no word why Fullmer shot Pace other than the biased accusations of Pace's girlfriend. Why is a key that has to be established. I've seen nothing else so far that has any bearing on whether this was a criminal act or not...

So -

My take on the wounds, which of course is only an internet guess and worth all that implies: The nature of the wounds is not unusual for a .223 and the placement of the shots likewise unremarkable. A .223 will tumble and roll once it enters the body - it's designed to do that and travelling from neck to waistline while the subject is standing upright is not unheard of. The clipped chin leads me to believe that the shot which caused this was the second one, striking the chin as it was lowered due to the impact of the first round in the chest and as the body began to tilt forward as Pace fell. This intitial impact (especially if it glanced off bone) may even have started the round to roll prematurely and been cause of some of the downward travel. His fall forward would have brought the body into line even better for the wound's trajectory as described.

Firing a pair of shots in rapid succession is not unusual and is even a standard of trainning called a "double tap." The close distance at which the shots were fired would allow for an even faster second shot. The stippling and burns present are normal and tell us that the shots were in fact fired at very close range - I'd guess under ten feet.

I would assume that as an archer you've done some hunting and know that when you shoot a deer, that deer does not fall down dead. It jumps and runs. People are similar - they continue moving in the same direction with purpose for some time after being shot. (unless suffering a wound sufficient to kill instantly) A .223 to the chest is not an instantly fatal wound and a second would be very reasonable if the suspect continues to threaten.

So whether the second shot was fired because Pace continued moving forward and was still perceived as a threat; or whether is was fired in conjunction with the first shot as an initial attempt to stop a perceived threat is unknown. But either would be acceptable. The question is still why they were fired - what was the threat?

Much was made that Pace was only wearing a shirt and had no gun. So what - even naked people are dangerous. In fact sometimes nudity can be used as for intimidation and people fear those who are in a state of undress as being different. This should not have been unusual in this case though - perfectly reasonable for officers to expect to encounter residents in a state un undress.

Pace passed thorugh the kitchen - did he pick up a knife? Or did he appear to be armed as he charged at the officer? Or was he making verbal threats or statements that led the officer to believe he was armed as he advanced? There are so many possiblities...

Why the officer fired is covered in his report. We need to see that.

The girlfriend's statements are of her perspective and cannot be used to shed light on Fuller's perspective. Two very different things. Her perspective is important only in cooberating the order of events, not what other people in another room perceived.

I know you ain't gonna like that, but it is my take on what I've seen so far. Got any more proof that would shed light on the important issues of "why?" I don't buy into conspiracy theories.

[yorec]

Just saw your Siggy - cute. But what's a "signed one?" I reckong there'd be quite a few of us who'd take yer bet at 20 yds so long as we could use our pet long gun...

Course - you'd win a few of those too as most would underestimate an archer's ability. I've shot a little archery competitively and know what kind of capabilities are out there. I'd not be foolish enough to show up with any but my most accurate gun.

[Wraith]

As I posted a few pages back, I still have a few questions.

1) Are we as a society going to tolerate armed police raids on the suspicion of theft before other, more peaceful options are explored?

2) What right does the state have to threaten at the barrel of a gun for the return of stolen property? I cannot organize a posse to raid my neighbor’s house because he stole my lawnmower… why can the state?

3) Furthermore, I want to know how an ATF agent leaves a handgun unsecured and unattended in a vehicle with someone he cannot trust.

And certainly, if there is one organization that we cannot trust, it is the ATF. From WACO to the recent Dan Peterson entrapment scheme... They cannot be trusted. They are a filth that our society praises.

[mud roller]

I have read this thread with great intrest forsure. Im not a cop so I have no ideal how the system works with all this proof stuff ?? Are the officer reports and court reports (minutes) available to the public after the Grand Jury?? I would say that info would clear up most of this! I do have to say Im military and have been in two armed conflicts and if I smoked an unarmed combatant I would get my A$$ fried. Just ask the Marine who was filmed by the news crew. I expect any cop ,anywhere,to be held to the same standard.

[LAK]

Leber is an 18-year veteran of the force who lost his gun to a drug informant 39 hours before the shooting, according to police reports. The informant sold or traded the gun. The search for the gun led the SWAT team to the home of Brett Lynn Pace.
After shooting Pace, Fullmer was placed on paid administrative leave. He then was given special training duty pending the grand jury's decision.
As for Leber, law enforcement officials have refused to discuss him or the theft of his gun. He has remained on regular duty, including his work as a Council Bluffs police liaison to the Omaha office of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

" .... who lost his gun to a drug informant ... "???

"Informants" and the ubiquitous 'ATF. The plot thickens.

[12-34hom]

I would have to say that Any officer who would leave his gun with, in, or around a drug informant should have his sorry ass and career kicked to the curb.

Idiot. I can understand why "no law enforcement officials" want to discuss this moron.

12-34hom.

[Wraith]

How does it justify a freaking raid?!

[ATW525]

As I posted a few pages back, I still have a few questions.

1) Are we as a society going to tolerate armed police raids on the suspicion of theft before other, more peaceful options are explored?

2) What right does the state have to threaten at the barrel of a gun for the return of stolen property? I cannot organize a posse to raid my neighbor’s house because he stole my lawnmower… why can the state?

3) Furthermore, I want to know how an ATF agent leaves a handgun unsecured and unattended in a vehicle with someone he cannot trust.

And certainly, if there is one organization that we cannot trust, it is the ATF. From WAKO to the recent Dan Peterson entrapment scheme... They cannot be trusted. They are a filth that our society praises.

Oh please.... this wasn't a lawnmower we're talking about, it's a handgun that was in possession by convicted felon with a history of drug related and assault charges. Perhaps you would prefer they sent a singing telegram asking him to bring his meth lab and illegal arsenal down to the police station? This guy was a career criminal who repeatedly chose to disregard the law... he made his choices and he got what was coming to him. At least this way the tax payers of Iowa get a reprieve from having to give this guy room and board until the next time he got out and could start drug dealing and stock piling illegal weaponry again.

Suuuure, let's blame the ATF for it all... afterall, there was an ATF agent at the meeting with the informant who stole the gun, so it must be the evil ATF up to thier old ways. It's all a villianous conspiracy that made the informant steal the gun and the convicted felon drug pusher take it from the informant. These guys would have been role-model citizens if the ATF hadn't been there corrupting them with thier presence.... riiiiiiiight. :barf:

[Wraith]

This guy was a career criminal who repeatedly chose to disregard the law... he made his choices and he got what was coming to him.

He did not "get what was coming to him". What was coming to him was hard jail time, not death.

Frankly the viewpoint that felons and druggies deserve death is disgusting. I support capital punishment for murderers and rapists but not meth dealers and those who break firearm restrictions.

Suuuure, let's blame the ATF for it all... afterall, there was an ATF agent at the meeting with the informant who stole the gun, so it must be the evil ATF up to thier old ways.

I suppose you have a point there... I mean if the ATF had been up to their old ways somewhere around 74 men, women, and children would have been dead, not to mention a 50 day siege. They're doing better.

[TheeBadOne]

the Gubberment!

[ATW525]

He did not "get what was coming to him". What was coming to him was hard jail time, not death.

Frankly the viewpoint that felons and druggies deserve death is disgusting. I support capital punishment for murderers and rapists but not meth dealers and those who break firearm restrictions.

The Grand Jury seems to disagree... and it wasn't capital punishment at all, but justifiable self defense against a career criminal with a history of drugs and violence known to be in possession of illegal weapons.

[haskell]

Not to many more posts by diesel lips Hood, and he will be elevated to senior member. Where did he obtain all these records that are usually not available to the general public? I was not at the incident, so I can't jump right in with instant outrage. Anybody else actually at the scene? In between accusations HOOD offers up a bow challenge. I thought it might be James coburn in the magnificent seven knife scene. :barf:

[The Hood]

That a first, never been called that.

the question is, why the second kill shot.

you know Brett was 15 miles from Ruby ridge as the tanks went by.

If a cop can shoot you in the face while your down in Iowa but not in Baghdad without getting trouble, something is wrong..

The Hood,
Supporting Member of Camp Cuervo Archery Club, Baghdad,Iraq

[The Hood]

Oh..A signed one

[The Hood]

and do you want to see who you're talking with

[The Hood]

"I know that we are held to a higher standard," Taylor said of law enforcement. "That makes us somewhat nervous, but we know going into it that when something like this happens, we're held to a standard of the public. The public wants to be assured that the people who are out there protecting them are doing what's right."


Shooting a downed man in the face

[ATW525]

There's nothing that indicates that he was downed... and clipping his chin is hardly shooting him in the face.

[12-34hom]

Well, i 'd have to stick with my initial evaluation + the decision of the grand jury on Mr. Pace.

The "Hoods" documentation falls short, his bias is clear, this one's a wrap folks>>>

12-34hom.

[TheeBadOne]

The "Hoods" documentation falls short, his bias is clear, this one's a wrap folks>>>

[USP45usp]

At this time I must agree with 12-34hom and ThreeBadOne. I just don't see the evidence.

My advice would be to go through your evidence, get a copy of the GJ testimony, and try again at a later date.

I think that at this moment, you don't have a case, either here, or in a court of law.

Sorry.

Wayne

[Unique 5.7]

Let me make sure I have this straight. Policeman "X" is investigating Perp "Y" using Ratfink "Z". Within about 3 weeks of the beginning of the investigation X's gun is stolen and transported onto Y's property by Z. Witness "A" happens to see THE gun (or the person believed to have stolen it) go into the house and a different one leave. (is this sentence right?) A warrant is then issued to search Y's property. Serendipity, baby!
I'd look into this gun story carefully. It works out a little too conveniently to blithely overlook. Still, coincidences happen, even very lucky ones!

[artsmom]

A recap of what we have learned from those who support this SWAT team action:

The wisdom and judgement of grand juries, courts and judges should be respected as the last word on criminal wrongdoing concerning police officers. However they are a waste of time and effort when it comes to criminal suspects, and they can easily be replaced self appointed execution squads.

We should automatically trust that the police officers in this incident know best and their judgement should not be questioned, even though they judged it okay to leave their pistol in a car with a drug user / dealer / informant, and blithely toss pyrotechnic devices into areas they hope to find a meth lab and the attendant flammable chemicals and explosive propane tanks, ignoring the dangers of this action.

If you suspect the cops of wrongdoing, you must be able to provide proof in the form of scans of all detailed information, at least 70 pages. Once this is provided, it means nothing, we are going to give precedence on the information the grand jury and police HAVEN'T given us.

BTW, for those of you who believe a judge and jury are a waste of time in cases like these, then why not save a whole bunch of money and just use the vigilante system, bypassing the whole idea of a police force (and the paychecks that go with it)? The Mexicans used street justice recently to great effect to beat and burn to death two corrupt officers who were trying to kidnap schoolkids. How do we know these Mexican cops were corrupt and kidnapping kids? Because the mob said so, and it was too late for them to be innocent by the time the officer's would be rescuers got there.

[TheeBadOne]

A recap of what we have learned from those who support this WITCH HUNT action:

The wisdom and judgment of grand juries, courts and judges should be respected as the last word on criminal non-wrong doing concerning anyone but police officers. However they are a waste of time and effort when it comes to Police suspects, and they can easily be replaced self appointed INTERNET MMQB's

We should automatically trust that the suspect in this incident knows best and their judgment should not be questioned, even though they judged it okay to live the life of a career criminal, have multiple criminal convictions, narcotic use/manufacture.

If you suspect the suspect of wrongdoing, you must be able to provide proof in the form of scans of all detailed information, at least 70 pages. Once this is provided, it means nothing, we are going to give precedence on the information the grand jury and suspect HAVEN'T given us.

BTW, for those of you who believe a judge and jury are a waste of time in cases like these, then why not save a whole bunch of money and just use the vigilante system, bypassing the whole idea of a civilized society?

Your bias is acknowledged by yourself. Please move on.

[Ala Dan]

The boston strangler makes a very valid point, as most all
departments have someone designated as a departmental spokesperson.
And and all media type information needs to be approved by them.

Best Wishes,