The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 15, 2005, 07:33 AM   #1
Harley2k
Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 31
What happened after the gun fight???

Was reading the thread about has anyone been in a gunfight. I was wondering those of you that have been in a gunfight what happened? My CHL instructor said if you shoot, count on getting sued. Did the police detain you, did you get arrested, did you get sued, or did anyone give you a hard time? This may be another subject but did you feel any guilt after the fact? Do you wish you could go back and not pull the trigger. I did not intend to get so deep, but want to know what goes on after the trigger is pulled.
Harley2k is offline  
Old March 15, 2005, 03:41 PM   #2
FrankDrebin
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2004
Posts: 1,101
Quote:
My CHL instructor said if you shoot, count on getting sued.
First of all, what exactly does "count on getting sued" mean? Does that mean that you're more likely than not to get sued in a shooting where the prosecutor says you were justified in shooting? If that's what he means, he's full of crap and you should find someone who knows what the real deal is and is willing to share it with you when you're paying him money to educate you.
FrankDrebin is offline  
Old March 15, 2005, 05:23 PM   #3
Harry Bonar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 5, 2004
Location: In the Vincent, Ohio general area.
Posts: 1,804
re-to shoot

Dear Sir:
Yes, you're instructor is precisely right!
Even in a clean, justified shooting, when the police come have your gun visible (OUT OF YOUR HAND) and be standing with your hands out saying, "good Guy."
They will arrest you, confiscate your weapon and you'll be treated like a criminal. Your case will go before a Grand Jury and hopefully the will file a "clean bill" on your berhalf. You will then be released.
Now, you need to worry about a civil suit from any relatives the perp' had.
Great justice isn't it?
Harry B.
Harry Bonar is offline  
Old March 15, 2005, 06:00 PM   #4
captainsdad2
Junior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Location: Glendora, California
Posts: 11
Harry is right on

In the shooting that went down in Los Angeles where the BGs had full body armor on and full auto weapons, the City of Los Angeles, the officers involved and many others were sued by the mother of one of the BGs. He had been shot in the leg through a seem in the armor. With all the shooting going on, the officers were reluctant to stand up in the open and walk to the BG to give medical aid (go figure). He bled out before the scene was secure and the officers could give him medical help. Mother dearest thought that the officers should have rushed through automatic weapon fire to give medical aid to her poor little boy (who had been doing his level best to kill them).

Thankfully it was thrown out of court, but this is the way it works. If the BG has relatives, you will be sued. The upside is that you will still be alive which is what self defense is all about.
__________________
"Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored". Aldous Huxley, Novelist (1894-1963).
captainsdad2 is offline  
Old March 15, 2005, 08:20 PM   #5
FrankDrebin
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2004
Posts: 1,101
Quote:
Thankfully it was thrown out of court, but this is the way it works. If the BG has relatives, you will be sued.
Absolutely untrue.
FrankDrebin is offline  
Old March 15, 2005, 08:32 PM   #6
w4klr
Junior member
 
Join Date: December 22, 2004
Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Fl
Posts: 280
In any case, I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by six...
w4klr is offline  
Old March 15, 2005, 09:34 PM   #7
U.F.O.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 22, 2004
Location: TN
Posts: 513
FrankDrebin, why is this
Quote:
"Absolutely untrue."
I don't have an opinion, however would like to hear the reason behind your response.

U.F.O.
__________________
"But today you just read that the man was shot dead
By a gun that didn’t make any noise
But it wasn’t the bullet that laid him to rest was
The low spark of high-heeled boys"
~Traffic - Stevie Winwood~
U.F.O. is offline  
Old March 15, 2005, 11:51 PM   #8
chris in va
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 26, 2004
Location: Louisville KY
Posts: 12,492
I recently took a Home Defense class and had a lawyer speak about various firearm cases he's defended. In all the years he's been a lawyer, he hasn't heard of anyone suing the good guy after it was deemed the BG was legitimately killed.

This is in VA...he said out west things are different.
chris in va is offline  
Old March 16, 2005, 03:51 AM   #9
Garand Illusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,278
From the cases I've read about in Colorado ...

Our home defense (aka "Make My Day") law also protects us from civil liability. As long as we can prove the guy we laid out wasn't invited in by us and we had reason to believe he was there to commit a crime (prove the first point, the second one falls in line) nobody can sue you for your actions.

The police often take the homeowner in for questioning, but they generally are not charged and are released within hours (from what I've read in the paper). Of course the investigation is ongoing, but that's to be expected.

I tend to believe you can be sued for a shooting where no charges are filed, however. Kobe Bryant had all charges dropped against him so he is legally NOT GUILTY of rape, but even so he was sued in civil court and had to settle it.

Whatever you think of him, OJ Simpson was proved NOT GUILTY in a court and he was also successfully sued and stripped of pretty much all assets except for his $25,000 monthly annuity (which I could live off of fairly well).
Garand Illusion is offline  
Old March 16, 2005, 04:05 AM   #10
perception
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 9, 2005
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 421
I have asked a lot of people the same question, and the general consensus was that in a justifiable shooting, you will have criminal and civil charges brought against you. If it even goes to court, you will likely win the criminal case as a jury of your peers generally understands your actions and their necessity. The real problem is the civil suit. Even if it is not the family of the BG, then someone else will step in and sue. Every single bullet that comes out of your gun has a lawyer attached. Civil suits are decided by a single judge, and gun control is a hot political topic, and many lawyers and judges are eager to make a career off of such a emotional topic.
perception is offline  
Old March 16, 2005, 05:38 AM   #11
FrankDrebin
Junior member
 
Join Date: May 21, 2004
Posts: 1,101
Quote:
I don't have an opinion, however would like to hear the reason behind your response.
The reason you're a lot more likely to NOT be sued over a justified shooting is because lawyers don't like to work for free. Very few would take a case on a contingency basis when it's very likely he's going to lose. Many of them would take the case on an hourly basis, but it rarely happens because people don't want to pony up tens of thousands of dollars just to have their case tossed out before it even gets in front of a jury.

Those who say you're more likely than not to be sued after a justified shooting don't know what they're talking about. Those who say you WILL be sued are just lying. And those who say you're more likely than not to be criminally charged, or who say you WILL be criminally charged after a justified shooting are wrong and so paranoid that they should absolutely not be allowed to carry a gun. It's inexcusable for someone, especially a cop, who is teaching a CCW class to tell you that "you will be sued". You're paying him for his knowledge and if he tells you anything but the truth, he's either incompetent or lying.

Quote:
Even if it is not the family of the BG, then someone else will step in and sue.
Like who?
FrankDrebin is offline  
Old March 22, 2005, 08:03 PM   #12
Kruniac
Member
 
Join Date: March 22, 2005
Posts: 44
This teaches an overly importent lesson folks.

NEVER shoot to wound. If you had to fire, you also had to kill. If you are justified in shooting, you would have been also justified in killing.

Lawsuits from family are a LOT less impacting than lawsuits from some scumbag who can sit in court and cry about how he cant walk, cant play sports, cant rob people anymore.
Kruniac is offline  
Old March 23, 2005, 01:43 AM   #13
Twycross
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 26, 2005
Location: Montana
Posts: 1,187
In today's society, anyone will sue anyone for anything. As in the McDonalds case (They serve hot coffee!! Stop them!! ). I would not be surprised to be sued by a BG for "looking at him funny". And even worse, he has a chance of winning. Justice is down the drain in the modern court system. Along with any sense of the ridiculous.
__________________
The test of character is not 'hanging in' when you expect light at the end of the tunnel, but performance of duty, and persistence of example when you know no light is coming.
- Vice Admiral James Stockdale, USN (ret.)
Twycross is offline  
Old March 23, 2005, 07:47 AM   #14
Double Naught Spy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Forestburg, Montague County, Texas
Posts: 10,342
The notion of counting on getting arrested and getting sued are just good defaults to consider just like counting on having to fire your gun if you are in a dangerous situation where you have to draw it. You may never have to fire it, but you should have the mental mindset to be ready to do so and to deal with the related circumstances.

Harry Bonar said,
Quote:
They will arrest you, confiscate your weapon and you'll be treated like a criminal. Your case will go before a Grand Jury and hopefully the will file a "clean bill" on your berhalf. You will then be released.
I had to laugh at this statement. Apparently there is a huge stigma associated with being arrested and people feel outraged when they get arrested even though they were the good guys in a bad situation. The reason why I have to laugh is that the stigma and outrage associated with 'being treated like a criminal' is just an overblown misguided interpretation of the events. It isn't that you will be treated like a criminal if arrested, but that you will be put through the first part of due process. That process certainly will include things like handcuffs, mug shots, holding cells, and if the charges are filed, the whole court section of due process.

A buddy recounted an incident where one of his friends was arrested at the airport for a handgun. The friend had a CCW and unintentionally left it in a carryon bag that was spotted by the security folks. So the friend was arrested. My buddy was outraged by the arrest because the friend was cuffed in front of other passengers, led away in cuffs, and taken to a holding area where the friend was processed. In other words, the friend was treated like a criminal. In reality, the friend was not treated like a criminal, but treated appropriately as per the process.

So if you are in a shooting and even if it is justified, you may get arrested and the reason you may get arrested is that it is part of the process. Unless things are 100% or better that you operated in true self defense, you may be arrested simply as a part of the investigative process that would be done for any shooter until the time that officers work out what happened exactly. If they can't, then expect to deal with the grand jury and/or a full blown trial.

These are just the costs of doing business with a gun. There are inherent risks associated with the whole process.
__________________
"If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher."
-- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011
Double Naught Spy is offline  
Old March 23, 2005, 10:18 AM   #15
Wraith
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 22, 2004
Location: The Free State
Posts: 498
Then perhaps we should change the process?
__________________
June 23, 2003
GRATZ et al. v. BOLLINGER et al.
The day America died.


Never Forget 9/11.

Cold dead hands...
Wraith is offline  
Old March 23, 2005, 03:09 PM   #16
Unique 5.7
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 20, 2005
Location: The Heartland
Posts: 214
Garand Illusion (Great name btw) - Was jeopardy attached by the time the charges were dropped against Kobe Bryant?
__________________
"Never underestimate the power of a guilty conscience." - Det. Alexandra Eames, "Law & Order: Criminal Intent"
Unique 5.7 is offline  
Old March 23, 2005, 03:15 PM   #17
BreacherUp!
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 21, 2005
Posts: 566
I believe Harley's question was directed at those that had been in a gunfight. Not those who knew someone's sister's aunt's cousins lawyer' friend. Everyone has good stories, but i think Harley was looking for 1st person experience. Check or hold?
__________________
Life's tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid.
BreacherUp! is offline  
Old March 23, 2005, 04:15 PM   #18
Arc Angel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 17, 2004
Posts: 284
Quote:
In the shooting that went down in Los Angeles where the BGs had full body armor on and full auto weapons, the City of Los Angeles, the officers involved and many others were sued by the mother of one of the BGs. He had been shot in the leg through a seem in the armor. With all the shooting going on, the officers were reluctant to stand up in the open and walk to the BG to give medical aid (go figure). He bled out before the scene was secure and the officers could give him medical help. Mother dearest thought that the officers should have rushed through automatic weapon fire to give medical aid to her poor little boy (who had been doing his level best to kill them).
Obviously you're referring to the death of Emil Matasareanu. With all due respect, and meaning no offense whatsoever, this description of Matasareanu's death ISN'T what really happened.

(I offer this, only, because an accurate account of what happened that day is important and should be accurately remembered.)
__________________
‘There are, only, two kinds of warriors in this world: Those who dream of war, and those who have nightmares about it. As for me? I dream of a better world. I dream of war!’
Arc Angel is offline  
Old March 23, 2005, 05:38 PM   #19
Para Bellum
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 7, 2005
Location: right there
Posts: 1,847
lawyers

Quote:
because lawyers don't like to work for free
I am a lawyer. I can confirm that 1000%.
__________________
Si vis pacem - para bellum
If you want peace - prepare for war
Para Bellum is offline  
Old March 23, 2005, 07:51 PM   #20
joplin
Member
 
Join Date: November 21, 2004
Posts: 25
I am leo, and I was detained, removed from the scene and my weapon was handed over to the investigators. After the Investigation by my Dept. and Texas Rangers (they are sometimes asked to investigate so that any bias can be ruled out.) I was cleared and my weapon was returned and I returned to work. Several days transpired during this time. Waiting for the court system to work now. Hope this helps.
joplin is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:03 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11970 seconds with 7 queries