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Old March 30, 2005, 06:05 PM   #51
XavierBreath
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I gotta agree with Mr. Zulu. There is no way in hell I am going to grapple with a BG while I have a gun on me. The possibility of loosing that gun is just to great.
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Old March 30, 2005, 08:55 PM   #52
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Well, you covered the 3 counties that selected the Govenor. I'm glad I live in Chelan county where the court challenge is going on.


Anyway, I have confered with some guys in the know and I got a pretty straightforward response. In no case that they could think of, is it illegal for the defending party to assume a defensive position and warn the attacker of the use of force if the the defending person has done nothing beyond normal interactions to provoke the situation or defuse it. So basically, if Joe Prick threatens you and you step back slightly but assume a position with one hand forward and one on your weapon and say something like "Stop, do not continue, I will use force to defend myself"

Use the word defend and say it loudly for anyone to hear. This sets the tone. Use force as well. Do not use the word gun as it creates some stereotypical reactions. In the police investigation when they are interviewing people they heard "I am defending myself" or they will say they heard "I have a gun". The first sounds much better for legal defense.

If such an incident does occur. Immediately call the police and inform them exactly what happene and that you are legally carry CWP holder. Also inform them you felt your life well being was threatened and you would like to press charges against the assailent. Do this if you have to shoot or not. It immediately puts you on the offensive and immediately brings the police to YOUR aid not the aid of your ATTACKER. IF you don't do this, the idiot can call the cops and say some guy pulled a gun on me. Now your on the defense immediately. One sounds like a law abiding citizen, the other doesn't. Legal folks don't fear police involvement in the eyes of the law.

Hope this helps!


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Old March 30, 2005, 09:01 PM   #53
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Live in Lewis County

Well, luckily, I live in Lewis County, so I don't have many issues with firearms down here.

When I dropped off my LEO copy of my C&R app at the sheriff office, the girls in the office just said "Oh, another one. We'll stick it in the file."

When I applied for my CPL, I was in and out in less than 15 minutes, CPL arrived in less than the required 30 days.

Great stuff.

I can't imagine living in Metro Seattle....what a zoo.
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Old March 30, 2005, 10:41 PM   #54
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I don't even own a gun and I live in a state where it would be easier to vaporize my enemy with lasers from my eyes than to obtain a CCW permit. I'd just like to say, though, that if I ever did move somewhere that I'd be carrying a gun, I'd get my ass some Krav Maga classes and make damn sure that I could break any armed assailants wrist before he could take his safety off. The people in this thread who raise the question of "What if you hint and they draw?" have an excellent point. If some homeboy wants to showboat for his friends by putting a gun to your head, you won't be able to draw and fire effectively without losing your melon. You'd better either have Jesus or enough hand-to-hand combat knowledge to take his gun from him(preferably both). Just my $.02
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Old March 31, 2005, 02:27 AM   #55
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Someone here wrote recently that "CCW gives you the right to carry but not to use a firearm". That is pretty insightful. If any of us actually draws on someone, or even shoots them--perphaps killing them--we go where our CCW permit is meaningless. Think of what LEOs go through, and their actions have some deadly force legality.
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Old March 31, 2005, 04:16 AM   #56
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Howdy,
I really feel the need to question the posts referencing the individual that was incarserated for telling a BG he had a concealed weapons permit to avoid bodily harm. I'll start off by stating that I'm not questioning anyone's integrity , but the whole thing sounds like urban legend at best. Even in liberal la-la land I don't see how a person can be locked up for that. If this incident were even close to being factual it seems lawyers from the ACLU as well as the NRA would have jumped in to rip the DA a new a$$hole for trying to prosecute this guy.
If someone can confirm the actual validity of this case I'd more than be happy to send money to help out for this guy's legal fund.Until then the whole thing sounds like hype to me.
Worst case senario I don't see how an unarmed person, claiming to have a CCW to avoid physical confrontation, would recieve anything more than a fine. I'm no lawyer but show me where this is a felony offense!!!

Last edited by zulustyle; March 31, 2005 at 04:49 AM.
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Old March 31, 2005, 06:25 PM   #57
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I had a situation several years ago when a guy got into an argument with me over a shopping cart that he thought I put against his car (which I didn't). I tried everything I could to calm him down and I think he felt bolder the more I tried to back down.

Finally he got right into my face and spit on me. Frankly at that moment I thought the next thing he would do would be to punch me out. I pulled my gun, put it to his head, yelled at him to get down on the ground face down, and on my cell phone I called the police and told them about being assulted and holding the man at gunpoint. When the police came, I put my gun on the ground (away form the moron) and told the police I wanted to press charges.

I finally let it drop with an appology from the moron.
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Old March 31, 2005, 08:40 PM   #58
rlpinca
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It seems like some of you are afraid to fight and think shooting someone to avoid a fight will be ok.

The fact is that if they are unarmed and you shoot them, you'll most likely lose in court and end up in prison. About the only time you'd be able to justify killing someone is if they pulled a weapon, or if they were quite a bit larger and presented a huge threat. If you weighed 120 pounds and a 300 pound football player lookign guy came at you, then deadly force would definately be a good option. But if you were of equal size as the unarmed bad guy, then you'd have a fight on your hands in court.

Yes pulling the gun to stop him from advancing would be wise, but what if he keeps coming at you? Would you be willing to kill an unarmed man and try to convince a jury that you were right?


BreacherUp! is on the right track. Learn to fight without a gun before you bother carrying a gun.

Here in NM, open carry is legal. So I doubt that letting the guy know you are packing by just casually uncovering the gun would be any problem for you at all.
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Old March 31, 2005, 09:32 PM   #59
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Im sorry but size can be very misleading, I have seen short stocky guys punch out someone a foot taller than them.

I have been in many fights in my adolescent life, and I feel as though I dont need to prove myself anymore. I dont want any kind of conflict. Why take the chance of getting your teeth knocked out, or even worse having the gun grabbed from you? Obviously the other guy is being the agressor, so why should you have to fight him?
Its as simple as this, either I can get away, and if I cant, I am NOT fighting. Thats is opening up the biggest can of worms. I am going to stop the conflict right away. I carry fox 5.3 now in my left pocket, and my revolver in my right.

I am hoping that my Spidey sense will tell me when its the time to skip the OC and go straight for the HP's.
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Old March 31, 2005, 10:15 PM   #60
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Quote:
BreacherUp! is on the right track. Learn to fight without a gun before you bother carrying a gun.
Not all of us have this luxuary(sp). I've never told anyone about this (embarressing would be a key word here) but I have a muscle degenerative disease. Along with this comes about the dreaded bone brittleality phases, I'm the one in the commercial that yells out, "Help I've fallen and I can't get up" (not really me in that commercial, just the same boat). It seems as if my body sucks more from my muscles and bone marrow then it needs in order to function like it thinks it should. I can eat 40 meals a day and I still won't gain weight, in fact, I lose it (bone and muscle mass weighs more then fat, I am 6' tall and now a whooping 150lbs, and I don't try or exercise, or anything. I guess I'm a "fat man's" dream on how to lose weight ).

Anyway, I can't build muscle mass. As soon as it builds, my body sucks it dry. When I joined the military and went through MEPS, I found that I couldn't be in the Army or the Marines, they had us lift weights to determine our strength level, the Army and Marines recruits had to do 150lbs, us Air Force and Navy had to "try".... I lifted about 95lbs and that was pushing it. And I still can't life more then 100lbs without distress.

So, learning to fight is not an option for everyone. What about those worse off then I and are in a wheelchair? Those that can't move their lower half?

There are so many different variations of what is, what could happen, and people. It's unfortunate that the DA's and the lawyers try to pin you as an evil person, it's mostly due to politics, to either become a government senator or congressman or to become the next DA or governer. It's all politics to them, a score sheet if you will. They would hang their own mother if they thought it would advace their career.

I, as others, depend on a chunk of metal and little chucks of metal to be our protector in this world. I will honestly say that a 10 year old girl scout can kick my butt (okay, it was a 13 year old girl that kicked my butt but that is besides the point).

In this long and much not needed post, I just wanted all to take all aspects of the people that may wish to protect themselves and not offer a "one size fits all" conclusion. Not all are able to become "ninja's" or whatever. Many cannot become the next heavy weight boxing champs. Not all can depend on their bodies and strength to protect them in this world.

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Old March 31, 2005, 10:49 PM   #61
zulustyle
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Howdy,
I can not understand WHY if you have your ccw and weapon would you be willing to get in a physical altercation. There's no way a cop would try to get physical with a BG of the same size before pulling his weapon non-lethal or not, a civilian is afforded this same recourse in my opinion. Most of the people I've met that are FLUENT in martial arts are also the last ones ever to get in a fight. I've served in the Marine Corps and seen ears ripped off and teeth knocked out because people with so callled skills got into fights as opposed to scaling down the situation with other means.
In reference to the orginal question I think walking/running away is the best recourse. If leaving is not an option and you feel that you are in eminent danger and you are carrying by all means drawn down on the threat, shoot if necessary,call the cops absolutely nomatter what.
Sparring and fighting are two totally different things, this being stated it absolutely makes no sense to me to be involved in a physical confrontation with someone when you are carrying,the risk of losing your firearm is too great IMO.
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Old April 1, 2005, 11:04 AM   #62
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I hit a guy once while carrying. He was dragging his wife around by the hair and she asked me to help. He was drunk and I really didn't want to get involved in a marital thing, but also didn't want to hear her Kitty Genovese story on the news later either so went ahead and popped the guy a couple times. The gun didn't even come into my mind as it was not needed.

It's good to anaylize scenarios beforhand but methinks some of you are over-anaylizing this and not giving credit to your own intuition. I suppose I could be wrong on this but trust your instincts no matter the size of the guy.

It was Heinlein that said

"Never frighten a little man, He'll kill you." Size don't mean a whole lot nowadays. Martial artists abound. You just never know until its too late.

Listen to your spidey sense and act appropriately.
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Old April 2, 2005, 01:06 AM   #63
rlpinca
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Quote:
There's no way a cop would try to get physical with a BG of the same size before pulling his weapon non-lethal or not

A cop would never get into a physical fight?

You don't hang around too many cops do you? They usually end up getting into quite a few fights.


Simple reason: You can't shoot someone (legally) unless they have a weapon or are clearly capable and intent on killing you with their bare hands.

Now if you are handicapped or physically unable to fight, then take your chances. The jury may be quite a bit more leniant on you. But a person in good health shooting an unarmed man regardless of the cirsumstances is going to have some pretty bad odds against him in the courtroom.

I know the saying is that it's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. I'd rather avoid both.
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Old April 3, 2005, 06:43 PM   #64
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I have been an LEO for 27 years. I cannot tell you of the number of fights I have been involved in. I do not draw unless I am in fear of my life. At 6' and 240 I try to stay in shape, it makes a BIG difference. I can count the number of off duty fights much more easily. Those that have a physical disability will find that it is much easier to justify escalating force. Try to talk your way out of the fight, when it is time to fight, FIGHT, overwhelm the BG with violence. Never, ever, bluff. If you are not prepared to follow through do not indicate that you are. A non deadly force device is nice to have, especially, if you are not a trained fighter.
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Old April 3, 2005, 09:48 PM   #65
BreacherUp!
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USP45, I respect what you write. You seem like an honest man. When you talk about your ailment, it makes me bow my head, for I never would wish that on anyone, nor WOULD I WISH THAT ANYONE WOULD ONLY BE ABLE TO PUT UP A SLIM DEFENSE TO A PUNKS' WRATH Obviously, if your limit of protection is your verbal confrontation, then deadly force is the next step. My comment was directed at those that are very able to defend themselves with a force less than deadly, and had better learn it. Otherwise, they will, unfortunately, find themselves in jail with Bubba and the rest of the Crips. The continuum of Force is as foloows:
1) Physical presence
2) Verbal Confrontation
3) Physical confrontation
4) Restraints
5) Less than lethal (OC, baton, tazer, etc)
6) Deadly force
As you can see, they are a few steps in between yelling, "Step Back," before shooting someone. It may not seem appealing, but that is what you and every other leagally armed person must responsibly do.
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Old April 3, 2005, 10:37 PM   #66
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Howdy,
For starts I'm not a LEO, don't really know any LEO's, and have no desire to be an LEO...but I do respect the badge and the fact that there are those willing to serve and protect. That stated my first response to the inital question was to leave the area/threat if it were an alternative. I would also try to de-escalate the situation if it were possible. In a situation where a person is INTENT on causing me physical harm and i can't leave,escape or avoid the threat and I am carrying I would be totally justified in pulling my weapon and then using that weapon if the threat persisted to assault me.
At what point can you determine if a person is capable/intent on killing you? Is it when you're unconsious?Is it when you lose an eye? Break a jaw? How many times have you guys wittnessed a fight where there was only one punch thrown or very few? So here you knocked the H__L out with an unsecured weapon.
As far as assaulting a cop...IMO most people would never even think about it, be it fear or respect. I'm also fairly certain that in a one on one situation Cop versus BG of equal size and the BG is intent on asaaulting the cop, the cop would use other non-leathal weapons before resorting to a firearm. Once again this is opinon, but I can't see a cop going to fistcuffs before deploying another type of non-lethal defense if given that option.
I realize that a CCW is a huge responsibility/liability, but where is is stated that you have to be in a situation where you have to have your a$$ pumeled before you can draw ?
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Old April 3, 2005, 11:20 PM   #67
oneeyeross
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Wowsers

I am very glad I don't live in some of the states you guys do, where you are afraid of using or threatening to use force for protection of yourself or others, or for the protection of property, or a malicious trespass, or any of the several other things the RCW allows.

I've never had to use force, and hope to never have to...but it is so nice to know that I can, and be within the law.
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Old April 3, 2005, 11:46 PM   #68
rlpinca
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To kind of put it in perspective.

If a kid was being bullied, would it be ok for him to stab or shoot the bully?

After all the kid wouldn't have any way of knowing if it was just going to be an a$$ whoopin or if his life were in danger.

How is it different for an adult?
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Old April 3, 2005, 11:48 PM   #69
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Quote:
1) Physical presence
2) Verbal Confrontation
3) Physical confrontation
4) Restraints
5) Less than lethal (OC, baton, tazer, etc)
6) Deadly force
Hmmmmmmmmmmm no attempt at de-escalation? No attempt to leave?
I assume you are a LEO. A civilian need only be in fear of death or grave injury, as would any reasonable man in the same circumstance.

If a civilian were to follow your continuum of force, they would surely be visiting Bubba and the Cripps. A civilian has no responsibility to restrain, and the verbal confrontation is just escalation in the eyes of the law. Physical confrontation is the same. All of this is well and good for a LEO, but for Joe Civilian, it's a quick ticket to 2nd degree murder.
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Old April 4, 2005, 12:25 AM   #70
zulustyle
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Howdy,
Kids can't get CCW's. The whole premise of this discussion is if you are carrying and you wind up in a situation where you are confronted by a BG.
For the record I don't carry. I also don't look like your typical victim either. I would general try to leave or avoid a fight but I am more than prepared/capible to defend myself. My issue is why risk losing your weapon in a struggle? IMO it is far worse to wind up on the wrongside of your weapon during a struggle than it is to use your weapon to defend yourself from bodily harm from a determined agressor.
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Old April 4, 2005, 06:29 AM   #71
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""Hmmmmmmmmmmm no attempt at de-escalation? No attempt to leave?
I assume you are a LEO. A civilian need only be in fear of death or grave injury, as would any reasonable man in the same circumstance.

If a civilian were to follow your continuum of force, they would surely be visiting Bubba and the Cripps. A civilian has no responsibility to restrain, and the verbal confrontation is just escalation in the eyes of the law. Physical confrontation is the same. All of this is well and good for a LEO, but for Joe Civilian, it's a quick ticket to 2nd degree murder.""

The use of force continuim does go both ways, the one we use does not have restrain as a level of force, usually that is the use of soft empty hand technics, holds, come alongs etc. Basically all that a use of force continuim is, is a logical progression of force. There is nothing to stop you from going from step 1 to step 5 or visa-versa. I think you are splitting hairs with his articualtion. Maybe if I made it politically correct it would sound better ie: Verbal response.... If some punk says "Hey old man I'm gonna kick you're A@@" Logically you are going to respond....."Who me?" . And maybe, then I will want to use some physical technics because he needs to be taught manners and not use such language in public. I dont know where you live, but a threat of physical violence is just that a THREAT, and I deal with all threats. The real thing to worry about is; Am I in Imminent danger??? ie; is he going to assault me now or when I try to leave??? If I am going to throw down with some tough it is right there, right then. Sorry for being long winded....I will shut up now.
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Old April 4, 2005, 07:42 AM   #72
rlpinca
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Quote:
Howdy,
Kids can't get CCW's. The whole premise of this discussion is if you are carrying and you wind up in a situation where you are confronted by a BG.
Kids these days don't end up carrying weapons because of bullies?

Some adults start carrying a weapon because they are afraid of bullies.

Most kids are told not to fight bullies and to just walk away. That doesn't work very often. It doesn't work that often in adult life either.

Those kids that never learn to fight will end up being adults someday.

See the relevance?
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Old April 4, 2005, 03:19 PM   #73
zulustyle
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Howdy,
Martial arts training has great value, it teaches displine,it promotes self-reliance,it instills discretion,it improves confidence and the combat skills learned may very well save your or someone else's life.
When carrying one of the most paramount responsibilities is weapon's control. The possibility of losing control of my weapon while struggling with a BG is more of an issue to ME than drawing and using this weapon to defend myself or my family.
I hope this a decision that none of us will ever face but I recognize the importance of knowing one's plan of action if the situation ever presented itself.
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Old April 4, 2005, 09:51 PM   #74
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Interesting thread, I keep seeing references to using "less than lethal" weapons. I don't know about other state's laws, but here in Michigan, the CPL holders can ONLY carry a handgun. No pepper spray, batons, saps, etc. So it's all or nothing. Those other weapons, as explained by the visiting LEO to our class, will get YOU charged with CCW. The training consisted of NOT shooting unless you are SURE the gun is your LAST RESORT and must be drawn. No "hinting" allowed (technically, it could be considered brandishing). Every situation is unique, just as there are no "routine" traffic stops by LEO's there are no "routine" confrontations on the street. The officer clearly conveyed that one must retreat from the situation, figuratively and/ or literally. The handgun is a "life-ring" when all else fails. He also explained that if one DOES shoot, the first call should be anonymous to 911 to report the shooting. The second call should go to one's lawyer. Wise advice IMHO.
Josh
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Old April 4, 2005, 10:54 PM   #75
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Well the reason I posted this question is that in real life things dont go as they do in theory. Everyone in here says, retreat. Descalate the situation. Etc etc. Well, dont you think I want to? Maybe I wasnt clear in my first initial post, but just cause you WANT to leave doesnt mean a BG will say, "oh ok, you dont want to be assaulted, no problemo, why didnt ya say so, you are free to go."

Someone on here made a good point about bullies, and when your mom tells you to just avoid the fight. Yeah right, that doesnt work. Anyway, the character I am thinking about in this scenario wants to hurt you, he wants to feel power over you. When I retreat he comes after me. Now, if youc ant see a weapon and he is going to punch you, or who knows what, do you draw and fire? That can be messy.

I do carry OC spray just so I have a first line of defense. But I really do think that 90% of these guys would not mess with you knowing that you were armed, dont you agree?
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