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Old March 19, 2005, 11:32 PM   #26
Coltdriver
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If I were to encounter a threatening situation as you describe, I would make every attempt to disengage, walk or run away from the problem.

But under no circumstances ever would I let on that I was armed.

My experience with nutcases is that they are usually affected by drugs or booze or both. No rational person makes physical threats against another. You try to call the bgs bluff and you may find yourself attacked. If the bg is at or under 20 feet from you then you are in serious danger.

The major advantage my concealed weapon gives me is a last resort that the bg does not know about. It gives me an opportunity to find a way out knowing that if all of my attempts fail that I have one last card to play.
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Old March 21, 2005, 06:56 PM   #27
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Not sure about where you live but here in Texas you can threaten to use deadly force (including a gun) and that doesn't count as the use of deadly force. Merely 'creating the apprehension' that you will use deadly force if necessary is legal, though I would exercise such a thing with caution.
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Old March 21, 2005, 11:23 PM   #28
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The first step would be to back away and see if you can walk away from it. It gives you room to manouvre and is a demonstrative effort at disengaging from the situation.

If he pursues you You are in a grey situation. What I understand about CCW legislation is that it varies a lot from state to state.

I would be reluctant to even threaten or intimate use of a gun by word or gesture unless I felt that either I, a member of my family or another citizen was in serious physical danger.
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Old March 22, 2005, 10:42 AM   #29
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From what it seems to me, Texas is a good state to be in for people that want to protect themselves. Of course I would believe I was in serious physical harm. But what my whole point of this thread is, do you wait to take a punch???or...shoot him before he does? Or, something in between, let him know he isnt going to be able to punch on you, and maybe prevent the punch, and the shooting.
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Old March 22, 2005, 01:33 PM   #30
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Don't get in such a situation to begin with. (not always an option- area not always known to be bad, and sometimes bad people go nice places-sometimes it happens no matter what you do)

Leave if you can. The law requires retreat where possible. As others have said, the gun is your one last hole card.

It may be that the law requires you to take a punch if you can't get away fast enough.

If you are with wife, children, etc., get them going first, follow. Again, if possible.

If not possible, cover the loved ones with your body and be prepared to take a punch or worse. Continue in your attempt to leave. Rapidly.

Do NOT draw the weapon or act you like you have it. Ever.

The first notice that you have a weapon the BG should get is a frontal view of the muzzle flash.

If the BG shows a weapon or hits you or your child, while you are attempting to run away, empty your gun into him.

Then call LE. Immediately if not sooner.

You still run a risk of unjustified prosecution. But better that than being dead. Or explaining to your wife or children why the other is dead or in ICU. And it may not even prevent that.

Like others have said, tough call.

Sometimes life just sucks and gives you bad choices.

Just my $ .02. Some may say it's not worth even that much....
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Old March 22, 2005, 03:10 PM   #31
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You still run a risk of unjustified prosecution. But better that than being dead. Or explaining to your wife or children why the other is dead or in ICU. And it may not even prevent that.
Rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6 is the old saying. Yes indeed it is a tough call. You must at all instances make possible an escape. The only time you should pull your gun is when using it.
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Old March 22, 2005, 07:34 PM   #32
Kruniac
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Hey guys. Ive been lurking for a LONG time now, and i cant believe what i read on here.

Ive always played it this way - if someone is hurting you, hurt them. If someone makes you think they will hurt you, make them think it wont be easy.

Self defense (lethal force an exception) can be used within "reasonable limits". Let me explain what that means.

Im at a pool hall. My friends and i are joking around, two guys give us grief because we dress strangely to them, we give them the old roll of the eyes and go about our business.

Later, we leave, and wait for the friend driving to come out. Well, out comes the two guys, and immediately i knew what was going to happen.

We lean on car, they come up and start the typical chest thumping, and somewhere along the line one of them gives me a tap on the jaw (and i dont mean a love tap). At this point, since he has just battered me, its well within my rights to use a like amount of self defense. Since the other guy at this point jumps in on it, my friend also applies reasonable force to stop the assault.

Anyway, long story short, we scuffled for a while, and eventually won (thanks to some stomping when they were down). My driving friend was nearby watching (he doesnt fight... at all.), then called the police halfway through. We wait until they showed up, we got asked a boatload of questions, and once it was all said and done, we used a reasonable amount of self defense to stop the attackers.


Now thats unarmed. Use your head about any unsure scenarios. Are there other people there who would see what happens? If not, can YOU see a weapon? Do YOU feel genuinely threatened? If so, do whatever you have to do.

Ill start carrying in June, since although i live in MD, ive already got some documented threats to rely on for my CCW application. I dont know how well ill do while carrying, but i will say this. If i cannot defuse a situation with words, and i know im going to get hurt (Shot, punched, whatever), the peice will do the defusing. If any BG is STUPID enough to continue after the peice comes out, then i feel sorry for their family.

You can never be TOO safe about you or those you care about. If you are sure that you will go to jail for it... well... thats why its a good idea to carry a disposable knife.
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Old March 22, 2005, 09:03 PM   #33
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Then the guy hell bent on proving his machoness, says "well you got a f-in problem now b*tch"
Assuming the guy is unarmed, at this point in our conversation he'd get a blast of Fox 5.2 in the face.
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Old March 23, 2005, 01:38 AM   #34
Shamus
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Real simple....

Plan "A" all you need to say to the guy is "I hope you have a gun on you... cause if ya don't then this isn't gonna be a fair fight" You didn't brandish or even say you had a gun.
If he pulls a gun you need to be a bit faster and hope all that target practice you've been doing pays off.

If he continues to walk toward you go to plan "B", run like hell.
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Old March 23, 2005, 03:01 AM   #35
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Legal to hint what you have on your hip?

At my CHL renewal the instructor, a long time LEO and Detective said. "Brace yourself and get into a stance, don't uncover or draw, but tell the BG I am armed and to cease his advance upon you". This failing and your life in danger from him and/or his whatever, shoot the SOB.

Be prepared for your arrest and a look at the inside of the Grand Jury with an anti-gun prosecuting attorney making you out to be John Dillinger, posting bail, possible lawsuits, and perhaps jail.

Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six!
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Old March 29, 2005, 02:06 PM   #36
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I think I would skip the part of waiting & absorbing the punch. I know people that hit hard enough to knock you out with that single punch. Then they would be free to follow up on it any way they wanted to. No thanks.
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Old March 29, 2005, 03:11 PM   #37
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New to the forum, but this is an interesting thread, as that I'll be applying for my ccw soon. Its always been my understanding that you are to respond to force with like force. So if he hits you its ok to get into a scuffle, but if the gun is going to be involved there needs to be something more than just a punch thrown, remember that you are looking for the situation to be ruled a justifiable homocide if it comes to that. I have to agree that the gun is your ace in the hole, don't do anything with it unless it is coming out and the trigger is getting pulled. Of course every situation is different, and if there were loved ones involved I can't say I'd be talking over pulling the piece. But in the situation you are describing nothing has happened yet, just some confronational language. Walking away is always your best bet, because if nothing else it shows that you attempted to de-escalate the situation.
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Old March 29, 2005, 04:11 PM   #38
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I hear alot of people saying that if he throws a punch, or can respond with punches but you can't use your CCW until he brandishes a weapon or in some way goes beyond normal unruliness and become life threatening.

My question to you would be, what if during the fight he becomes aware of you firearm, At which point he might figure you intend to use it as soon as you break loose of him, spurring him to make a play for you gun.
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Old March 29, 2005, 04:46 PM   #39
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winter001 Posts: New to the forum, but this is an interesting thread, as that I'll be applying for my ccw soon. Its always been my understanding that you are to respond to force with like force.
That seems all fine and dandy for you or anyone that can respond w/ equal force. IMO, I don't see where my wife could respond w/ equal force against someone twice her size and strength.

It is also my experience that to respond w/ like force only escalates the current amount of force being used.....every get involved in a slap fight in high school? Always gets ugly doesn't it?

Force can also be the current amount of fighting skill each person possesses. 2 people can have equal amounts of strength but the trained fighter will be able to apply much more force......this leads back to my previous statement.
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Old March 29, 2005, 05:41 PM   #40
winter001
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That seems all fine and dandy for you or anyone that can respond w/ equal force. IMO, I don't see where my wife could respond w/ equal force against someone twice her size and strength.

It is also my experience that to respond w/ like force only escalates the current amount of force being used.....every get involved in a slap fight in high school? Always gets ugly doesn't it?
This is a very good point, I guess every situation is going to be different and one should respond in a manner that seems appropriate to them. After all the goal is to go home safe, the legal consequences should be worried about later.
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Old March 29, 2005, 07:38 PM   #41
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been there. done that. bought the t-shirt.

guy approached me, my spidey sense started going apepoop, so i put my hand on my gun, under my shirt. kept it there while trying to get distance from the guy who was making me so nervous.

afterwards, i wound up calling the police, as the whole situation was not right. i believe i was being sized up for a mugging. i doubt the guy knew what my hand was on, and the only thing that kept me from drawing down was that i saw no weapon in his hands. well, hand, i couldnt see one of his hands.

after telling this story on THR, many said they would have drawn down on the guy. i think pepper spray would have been better, or at the very least i should have had (and now i always do) my surefire light in my offhand.
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Old March 29, 2005, 09:20 PM   #42
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Somthing like that could go both ways in a court of law. it would be you're word agenst his.

Todays court system is jacked with all the libral sludge fouling it up. :barf:
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Old March 29, 2005, 09:33 PM   #43
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You tell the guy, loudly, that you don't want any trouble, and that you will let him alone and go away. And back away. If he follows you, or grabs you, or waves a knife at you, then he becomes the aggressor and if he is armed you shoot to kill. And everyone in the vicinity heard you say that you didn't want trouble; everyone saw you back away and saw him follow.

You did everything possible to escape a confrontation; he attacked you.

If you get into a yelling and threatening match and say you have a gun, his reaction might well be, "I'm going to take your gun and shove it up your ***" or something to that effect, then you may have to shoot and witnesses will testify that you aggrevated the situation by challenging him.

Edited to add: This is for non-LEOs who are legally armed. If you are a LEO, you take his guff until he becomes unruly and disturbing the peace, then you move in, Mace the SOB and give him a set of shiny bracelets to wear while the uniforms toss him in a car and take him away.

Jim
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Old March 29, 2005, 09:57 PM   #44
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This is a very good post!! As a retired LEO and NRA instructor, I believe that no matter what the situation you may find yourself in, it is important to know what the law is in your State and how it may be interpreted in a courtroom. Call a prosecutor - not a LEO - and ask, usually they will talk to you, if not, no harm done. The more knowledge you have the better off you will be. Once armed with as much knowledge as you can get, let common sense take over!
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Old March 29, 2005, 10:01 PM   #45
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I also Say skip the punch part and draw ..........
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Old March 29, 2005, 11:05 PM   #46
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I also Say skip the punch part and draw ..........
LOL



As funny as that sounds, in todays court room a Judge would probibly take one look at the poor guy, after he says you just got angry and shot him, then dump this all on you.

You're fire arm shouldnt be drawn untill you're life is in clear danger. If a Judge saw that this attacker had some kind of a weapon and was after you, you're chances are far greater.
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Old March 30, 2005, 12:15 AM   #47
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My .01 cent

Snacktrack, you seem like a cool dude. This is NOT directed at you, but anyone thinking of drawing on someone b/c they've threatened to beat your a*s. Think about this. You go thruogh all the trouble of looking for a gun, buying a gun, going to CCW classes and paying the permit fee. But did you ever learn some sort of grappling, or boxing or something that is in the force continuum in between verbal confrontation and deadly force? So many people are quick to pull a weapon on someone before it should get to that point. A LEO can pull his sidearm if he feels that the person he is confronting has the abillity to disarm him and use his weapon against him. But somewhere during the struggle (unless you have prior knowledge) this decision will come to you.
Point of incoherent rambling: Learn self defense techniques to bolster up your learned weapon techniques. BTW, this will help you in court when you have to tell the jury that based upon your training and experience...
*Sorry, had to fix a spelling error. I've been told that I can't spell for sh*t.
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Old March 30, 2005, 01:42 AM   #48
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Howdy,
A good run is better than a bad stand any day. That being stated the last thing I'm going to do is grapple with some guy if I'm carrying. I don't care how good your martial art skills are, the thought of having your carrying piece wind up in the BG's hands is more scary than facing a jury for pulling my weapon on him. The absolute best alternative is to leave if you're by yourself.
If you are in a situation where it puts your family and signifigant others at risk do what you have to. There's no point in pretending or eluding to having a weapon unless you REALLY plan to use it or at least draw it.
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Old March 30, 2005, 12:14 PM   #49
Relayer
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Boy, this is tough...

After 40 years of loving guns, I've never carried, though I've strongly considered it.

If I read some of the responses correctly here (and I'm not by any means implying y'all are wrong), it is that I need to either turn and run (maybe try to outrun) the bad guy (say, for example, I'm in line outside the theater, and some badazz jumps in in front of me and the missus, and he begins to berate me and get in my face when I ask him to go to the end of the line), or if I can't, sort of wait maybe till he hauls off and smacks the sh*t out of me so that I can properly sense that my life is in danger. Even then, I may need to try and whip this street tough first, before I pull.

Now, I don't want to revert back to the mythical old west ways, but are things a bit askew with our legal system?

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Old March 30, 2005, 01:46 PM   #50
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Yes, No, Maybe....

Relayer, things might, indeed, be that screwed up, depending on where you live.

Here in Washington, the RCW says, in part: "Use of force -- When lawful. The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:...(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary..." RCW 9A.16.020 found at http://www.leg.wa.gov/RCW/index.cfm?...action=section

Notice the part where it says "about to be injured"...


So, here, in Washington, anyway, the offer to use force to protect yourself is NOT unlawful, as I read it...but I am not a lawyer, LEO, or prosecutor, and I don't live in King, Pierce or Snohomish county....So I MIGHT be safe doing it.

But, leaving or avoiding is ALWAYS the best course, whenever possible.
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