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Old March 9, 2005, 12:08 AM   #26
Metellus
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oops

Oops didn't realize you guys already posted this in "tactics" forum.
I posted it in the handfun forum.

1) That was a Glock 22 in .40 cal, no such thing as a Glock 40

2) Although the glock was unloaded at first by locking the slide back then loading in a full magazine of bullets then releasing slide loads the handgun. In fact that is the standard procedure for loading a semiautomatic handgun.

3) Before pulling trigger visually check the chamber by pulling slide back a little bit to ensure no bullet is in chamber. Although you may not see a round in the chamber at first if you follow the normal procedue to load a handgun assume the handgun is loaded.

4) First rule of gun safety always keep finger off trigger until you are ready to shoot

5) Second rule of gun safety esp if you are about to pull trigger point in safe direction (your own thigh does not qualify)

6) After scaring a room full of kids half to death by firing off a handgun round in an enclosed space into your own thigh after you claimed it was unloaded do not attempt to convince kids that your assault rifle that you are about to pick up is unloaded as well.

But you have to give him kudos for trying to save the presentation and act like nothing is wrong after shooting himself in the thigh....

Also, loved it when the kids were like put the rifle down please!!
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Old March 9, 2005, 02:21 AM   #27
Dan from MI
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This is one reason why I don't have my finger on the trigger, nor point my pistol at my leg.

I'm still shocked that the agent or his partner didn't check the chamber.
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Old March 9, 2005, 09:25 AM   #28
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While I agree it was a bonehead move, and he should certainly lose the privledge of ever teaching gun safety again to ANYONE, I don't think he should be fired. Accidents do happen, to ALL of us. No matter how many armchair commandos here believe they are perfect with a gun, the fact is that IT CAN HAPPEN. To the best and most highly trained. Everyone is capable of a brain fart. Make him go through heavy training, and restrict his privledge in non duty situations like that, but don't fire the guy. I am sure as an agent he has put in alot of time busting BG's, to even be picked to DO that presentation. Hes prolly a good cop that made a mistake.....
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Old March 9, 2005, 10:24 AM   #29
ffl
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again first rule of gun safety

keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction

as for a safety on a glock there is none as demostrated by this moron.

in the trigger Ha! Ha! Ha!

the only firearms discharged during the Tulsa Gun show Have been glocks. 1 by a stupid gunsmith using a live round and one by a LEO.

Safety in the trigger Ha!

My sons Henry mini bolt 22 is safer than a glock

that moron is lucky the didn't injure one of the kids.

I teach kids gun safety and shooting as well as CCW classes to adults and I have never allowed any live ammo in the classroom. If that rule is broken they are dismissed and never repeat never allowed to return and no refund is given.
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Old March 9, 2005, 11:27 AM   #30
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Quote:
as for a safety on a glock there is none as demostrated by this moron.
Yes, there IS a safety. The gun WILL NOT fire unless you pull the trigger. This was not the GLOCK's fault. It was the fault of a careless person having a loaded weapon, pointed where it should not have been pointed, having his finger on the trigger, and pulling the trigger. Entirely HUMAN error.
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Old March 9, 2005, 12:09 PM   #31
onlyinthemovies
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Funny. I was at a tulsa gun show when a rifle went off. It is not only glocks, no matter how much you may hate them. It takes carelessness --that's all -- with any gun.
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Old March 9, 2005, 12:26 PM   #32
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As soon as he said, "this is unloaded" referring to the Glock, I knew it was goin downhill from there. Its a shame, but he says it true: accidents DO happen. they are avoidable, and usualy due to some careless act, but they DO happen. sad though.
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Old March 9, 2005, 12:31 PM   #33
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People!! It wasn't an accident! It was negligence. An accident would be setting the gun on the table and having it go off. He failed to unload the weapon, failed to see that it was unloaded, failed to point his muzzle in a safe direction, failed to keep his finger off the trigger, failed to refrain from pulling the trigger. Not an accident.
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Old March 9, 2005, 12:41 PM   #34
TheeBadOne
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Quote:
People!! It wasn't an accident!
Main Entry: ac·ci·dent

Pronunciation: 'ak-s&-d&nt, -"dent; 'aks-d&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin accident-, accidens nonessential quality, chance, from present participle of accidere to happen, from ad- + cadere to fall -- more at CHANCE

1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance
b : lack of intention or necessity : CHANCE <met by accident rather than by design>

2 a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance
b : an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious <a cerebrovascular accident>
c : an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought

3 : a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance <the accident of nationality>
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Old March 9, 2005, 12:47 PM   #35
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What is the Webster's Dictionary Definition for "Idiot"?
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Old March 9, 2005, 01:12 PM   #36
too many choices!?
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The guy should be fired and here is why......

If this had happend anywhere else(the range, at the office, on the job somewhere) this might be forgivable, maybe! But the fact that he was at a school and in the presence of little people would have put me on HIGHER ALERT not less of one ! No matter how "familiar" you are with your weapon it does not exclude the use of common sense......Pick a number and see if that rule was broken and I bet it was.....Pulling the trigger is NEVER an accident ! He should not ever be allowed to touch a firearm outside of the home to keep the public safe.....Again anywhere else I might say give him a second chance but to be so negligent in the operation of your weapon as to shoot yourself and scare a buncha kids, this guy would pay for my kids therapy ......Wouldn't we be arrested if firearm we had went of in front of kids in public? Double standard to say the least ...
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Old March 9, 2005, 01:15 PM   #37
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What is the Webster's Dictionary Definition for "Idiot"?
Main Entry: id·i·ot

Pronunciation: 'i-dE-&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French ydiote, from Latin idiota ignorant person, from Greek idiOtEs one in a private station, layman, ignorant person, from idios one's own, private; akin to Latin suus one's own -- more at SUICIDE

1 usually offensive : a person affected with idiocy
2 : a foolish or stupid person
- idiot adjective
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Old March 9, 2005, 01:20 PM   #38
haskell
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Cop shoot?

The definition is not being a qualified instructor. LEA from where? Mumble, and wave a handgun around. Did it look even remotely like anything you have ever attended. When was somebody going to give him some first aid? Nobody took over and cleared the room. The entire thing was a debacle.( Besides, a real cop would have fallen down and claimed sombody else shot him )
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Old March 9, 2005, 01:25 PM   #39
Shorts
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Quote:
dasmi: People!! It wasn't an accident! It was negligence
Quote:
TheeBadOne
Quote:
People!! It wasn't an accident!


Main Entry: ac·ci·dent

Pronunciation: 'ak-s&-d&nt, -"dent; 'aks-d&nt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin accident-, accidens nonessential quality, chance, from present participle of accidere to happen, from ad- + cadere to fall -- more at CHANCE

1 a : an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance
b : lack of intention or necessity : CHANCE <met by accident rather than by design>

2 a : an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance
b : an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious <a cerebrovascular accident>
c : an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought

3 : a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance <the accident of nationality>
Hey, you're both right. But considering this is a gun forum, there is a difference in "accidental discharge" and a "negligent discharge". Just go look up the thread "Have you ever had an AD?". Many people made it clear they had an AD and not an ND.

There is a difference in the two terms that is certanly well pointed out and made clear. So which is it? Are they two seperate terms, or are they the same? I'm only asking because I never considered the difference until I got to this board and I wanna know.

It seems to me that a discharge becomes negligent when the person has disobeyed at least one of the 4 Rules.
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Old March 9, 2005, 01:30 PM   #40
too many choices!?
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Accidental discharge- gun go bang with no fault of user
Negligent discharge- user pulls trigger believing gun no go bang and is wrong

One you could be sued for the other is an accident and you could be sued for ....
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Old March 9, 2005, 01:57 PM   #41
Unique 5.7
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After working for 30 years helping to ensure people don't blow themselves up in a laboratory and examining the aftermath of "accidents" I have a new, more accurate word, based upon my experiences.
"Probables."
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Old March 9, 2005, 01:58 PM   #42
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IF, and only IF, we agree that the definitions posted by Shorts are correct, then:

-ALL "negligent discharges" are in fact also "accidental" under both the primary and secondary definitions shown there, since they are both "unforeseen/unplanned", and quite precisely "an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance".

So, ALL "ND"s are in fact also correctly called "AD"s, but calling the ADs, though correct, is not quite as descriptive.

But, NOT all ADs are also NDs - SOME (a minority) are not the result of carelessness/negligence - they could be the whim of fate/act of god, etc.
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Old March 9, 2005, 02:05 PM   #43
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Last weekend I went shooting and got to fire a friends SIG GSR. I'm used to my Colt series 80 with its 4.5-5 lb trigger. Three times I go to shoot the SIG and take up the slack in the trigger...Boom, she goes off. The gun didn't malf.,I didn't violate any of the four rules, what kind of discharges would you call those?

(The SIG sure has a sweet trigger but would take some getting used to if you're used to more stock triggers like me, and yes it was seriously more accurate than my Series 80 with all loads shot.)
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Old March 9, 2005, 02:07 PM   #44
Shorts
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I think that's a premature... uh

I think you should have just figured to not put your finger on the trigger to take out slack until you had the sights on your POA, especially if you knew the trigger was much lighter than your Colt.
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Old March 9, 2005, 02:09 PM   #45
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gawd, you remind me of this real prick in elementary school.. who went around intentionally calling a square a rectangle.. and then, when corrected.. pulled out the definition and going "ha! hah!".


the officer chose to put a loaded magazine into the pistol.
the officer chose to slide the slide back and release
the officer chose to point the gun in an unsafe direction
the officer chose to put his finger on the trigger.

THAT, imho, is not an accident. It is a direct result of his choosen actions.

If someone CHOOSES to run a red light, and gets into a collision.. they did not specifically choose to have a collision but it was still the direct result of their choosen actions.
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Old March 9, 2005, 02:12 PM   #46
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Right, making the collision an accident. a VERY avoidable one, but an accident no less.

Im not defending him. it was totaly huis fault. but its still an accident by my definition
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Old March 9, 2005, 02:21 PM   #47
jburtonpdx
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I wonder what he had in there? Do you suppose it was his defense rounds? I wonder if they were hollow points or target rounds or what...

He seemed to recover ok and quickly, though it is quite possible he was going into shock and did not know it. Example of shot placement, if that guy was in a combat situation I dont think he would have even realised he had been shot.

The reaction of the crowd and the others in the room is a great example of how our society is so numb to anything and everything now. There were some kids telling him to put down the long gun but mostly people just sat there...

I wonder if everybody was just waiting for someone to hit the reset button to start the game over. (note this was a joke about the myth that many of us growing up with video games are supposedly desensitized to violence)

I hope he is ok and severly reprimanded (if this is not his first ad/nd whatever you want to call it his punishment should be taken to the next level)
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Old March 9, 2005, 02:37 PM   #48
Edward429451
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I think you should have just figured to not put your finger on the trigger to take out slack until you had the sights on your POA, especially if you knew the trigger was much lighter than your Colt.
I did know it was lighter having had dry fired it, and it was to POA downrange...but...muscle memory ya know. I had already put about ten mags or so through the Colt and then tried the Sig. All three were in the first two mags.

It wasn't really negligent since I was at the range and all four rules adhered to, yet it wasn't what you define an accident as either...I call em 'whoopsies'
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Old March 9, 2005, 04:41 PM   #49
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When he says "This is a Glock 40, the same kind as 50 cent mentions" that just got my blood boiling. To make it seem like its cool to have a Glock 40 like 50 cent is extremely unprofessional. Guns are not a casual conversation piece for students, and using drug dealer/rappers as endorsement for what you are showing them is totally unprofessional and immature. I realize maybe he was trying to "relate" to the younger kids, but obviously from everything else he did his whole presentation was riddled to the core with unprofessionality.

He definitely was trying to finish the presentation out of ego, because after he already realized he made a mistake, he wanted to show another firearm. To continue the presentation puts the students under the impression, oh hey it really doesnt do anything to someone if they get shot. He should have ejected the magazine, cleared the chamber handed it to someone else, and left.

What I dont get is, why did they pick THIS guy to show a class room full of students firearms? Why was he not going through the actual process of checking a firearm and explaining it to the students? Whats the purpose of showing students , "Hey this is a Glock 40" and then not actually teaching them what to do. Maybe cause he had no idea what to do?? I have no idea how someone can be a professional and not know the rules in their sleep??
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Old March 9, 2005, 08:42 PM   #50
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OK, it was an accident, based on negligence. OK now? I frequently talk with students and have taught several youth groups gun safety. You can say anything you want, call it anything you want. But there is still no excuse. None. Idiocy. He should not ever be allowed to teach again. He has lost his credibility with his co workers, the students, and the citizens present.
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