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Old March 7, 2005, 11:11 PM   #1
Jungle Work
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You've Gota Be Willin'

I wonder how many of the good folks here are willin'. The military has problems with it and sometimes police departments have problems with it. The "it" is the fact that just because you're armed don't mean that you the will or the huevos to pull the trigger if the occasion calls for it to be pulled. I know everybody here considers themselves widowmakers, heartbreakers and lifetakers and there are truly some here, but most are not. But there are lots of folks here who talk about it, but who have never been confronted by the issue of whether to shoot or not shoot and take a human life. I would hate to bet my life on whether a bunch of the folks here would pull the trigger or not.

"SECURITY GUARD ALSO
DISTRACTED KILLER ARROYO

The Tyler Morning Telegraph has learned the identity of a second armed civilian who was in the line of fire of a heavily armed man clad in body armor who fired on the Smith County Courthouse with a semi-automatic assault rifle last week.

Witnesses reported to the newspaper last Thursday that an un-identified man pulled up behind the courthouse in a silver colored 1990s Chevrolet Caprice Classic and exited into a defensive position with his weapon drawn and pointed in the direction of David Hernandez Ar-royo Sr.

After a newspaper photographer caught the man and his vehicle on camera during the aftermath of the shooting, the newspaper tried identifying the man.

The Morning Telegraph learned the man was Michael Mosley, 42, of Winona, a security officer with the Southwestern Security Services Inc., stationed in the U.S. Attorney's Office in downtown Tyler.

Mosley is certified by the Texas Department of Public Safety as an armed security guard. The DPS Web site lists his license is in good standing.

When showed the photograph, Mosley confirmed it was him and his vehicle in the picture.

"Yes that's me and that's my car," he said.

Mosley refused to talk to the newspaper in detail, but did make a brief statement on Wednesday.

"I am no hero. God watched over me and protected me that day. I am praying for all the families involved and that is all I have to say," he said.

After repeated phone calls to a Southwestern Securities office in Houston, Joseph Morales, a supervisor for the company, told the Morning Telegraph his officer did not fire his gun last week.

"According to him, he did not fire his weapon on that day," Morales said.

However, at least one eyewitness believes Mosley was another deterrent during the tragedy."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Me, It's intresting why he did not fire his weapon, but climbed back into his car and drove off. He had no responsibility to intervene. Neither did Mark Wilson. A Brave Man died that day, but when he got to Heaven, everbody there and in Tyler Texas knew he was willin'. I bet some guys from the Alamo where there to greet him.

Jungle Work
....
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Old March 7, 2005, 11:29 PM   #2
chris in va
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Good point. All I can say is, I'm not sure exactly WHAT I'm capable of when the situation arises.

And here's an interesting side note. I used to play paintball quite a bit, and I remember the very first time I 'shot' someone. It felt very creepy to say the least. I'm wondering if that sort of experience will help or hurt. If a loved one were to be in severe danger I suspect it would up that factor.
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Old March 7, 2005, 11:39 PM   #3
Derius_T
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You are right Jungle Work. There are always those who will talk the talk.

Even those of us who were trained to take human life without thinking, find it difficult to do so in a civilian situation. Combat is one thing, something else entirely when its you with a gun, against some scared idjit with a knife. Is it a NECESSITY to take his life for trying to rob you, or do you show him what COULD HAVE HAPPENED, and hopefully he changes his ways? Its a gut, in your face call, and only you can make it at that instant.

And I don't care what ANYONE SAYS. Be they hardcore marine, SF, police, or armchair commando, if you TAKE SOMEONES LIFE, even in defense of your own, IT WILL BOTHER YOU. You MUST take their life to save your own, fine, you will not regret it......but you WILL see their face in your sleep.....

trust me.....
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Old March 7, 2005, 11:43 PM   #4
Walter
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it has been my experience that until the "stuff" hits the fan, you just never
know how someone will react. Training is important, and the desire to
do the right thing must be there, but in that split second where it is "fight
or flee", I don't know of any way to know which way a person will go.

In my time, I saw a big, tough, "gung-ho"-type reduced to a sniveling
punk after his first real firefight. And I saw a mousy little kid with nothing
but fuzz on his face stand up with an M-60 and proceed to chop a treeline
down around the NVA that were using it for cover.

You just can't tell how someone will react until it happens. Heck, I don't know for sure that I will react the same way now that I did 30 years ago.

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Old March 8, 2005, 12:02 AM   #5
Jungle Work
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Walter,
How true.
Me, I was always just plain scared. But I was more scared of being a coward in front of the other troops than scared of dying. Since then everythings been gravy. It always seemed them more firefights you were in, the more relaxed you became, at least not scared to death, just regular scared. And sometimes you forget about being scared. One thing is very true, you fight like you train.

I always found that young men who grew up hunting or from a more rural environment were better in the field than the more urbane troops.

Also, it is incumbant that one know's what the laws are and how they apply as a civilian. When you know you're right, justified and within the law you can consentrate on grouping.

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Old March 8, 2005, 09:31 AM   #6
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Anyone who is not scared in close combat is not brave. They are crazy!
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Old March 8, 2005, 12:15 PM   #7
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This is a good post, makes one think.

When I was active duty and the very few times that we were issued rifles and assigned a sand dune, I wasn't really scared, just highly alert as we peered out into the night (it always happened at night and was mostly just nomads cutting across the base).

The "shakes" and the "feeling" didn't happen until afterward (the chemical dump I guess).

Thank goodness that it wasn't more serious then what it was. We had a guy here in Eugene that made a good shoot. I overheard him tell the guy at the local gun shop that when it happened, he just went into survival mode (seeing the gun (so clearly he made out the inlaid emblem on the grip)), drawing and firing.

It wasn't until it was all over that he went into shock and second guessing his actions.

Too bad the security guard didn't have a rifle in a rack, that would have been a better shot that could have ended it all.

Wayne
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Old March 8, 2005, 01:28 PM   #8
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Hardball:

Actually, my understanding of the true meaning of bravery in such cases is that the natural fear is overcome by resolve to do it anyway. Cowardice is the lack of such resolve. Crazyness is the lack of the natural fear. Foolishness is the willful neglect of it, just doesn't care.

Point is, the brave one knows fear and overcomes it by resolve.

I have one little observation about the security guard: He may not have fired, but it may have been that he may not have felt like he had a clean shot. There are other reasons for not shooting other than "freezing up", so we may want to give him the benefit of the doubt.
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Old March 8, 2005, 01:41 PM   #9
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Jungle Work,

I'm not sure exactly what point you were trying to make in this thread. Some (most?) people are undependable in combat? You can't predict who will be and who won't?

Even if we stipulate that those things are true, what does it profit us? If we can't predict who is and isn't going to be reliable, then what is the point of the discussion?
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Old March 8, 2005, 03:49 PM   #10
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To be honest, I don't know I will react to a life-threatening situation. I have been in many a fistfights, twice with multiple assailants. All I remember of those hand-to-hand battles is that I either win, or end up in a hospital or morgue.

However, I do feel that I would have the balls to take a human life if required to do so. To say the least, I will be scared. I will see my life flash before my eyes. I will fight until I am no longer at risk of death or serious bodily injury.

And yes, I will be haunted and traumatized by such an event for a very long time, if not permanently.

-38SnubFan

P.S. Kinda cool to see a thread like this pop up. It makes one think about their reason for carrying, their mindset, and just to put themselves back into a Reality Check.
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Old March 8, 2005, 04:55 PM   #11
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I don't know if I can pull the trigger either. I guess it depends a lot on the situation. I do know though that I do carry everytime I step out the door. And that it's very good to have the option of shooting if I believe my or my wifes life is in danger. Not carrying cuts the options down lower than I want them.
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Old March 9, 2005, 01:37 AM   #12
Jungle Work
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G13,
The point is that a lot of folks here on this form are always talking about what they would do or not do in any given situation or confrontation. It's my opinion that most don't have a clue as to what they would really do, other than pee their pants. There are some here who have the been there, done that awards and decorations or have years of experience in dealing with confrontation, some of it armed confrontation. Them I would trust, the rest are only blowing hot air.
The point being, some of the kiddies here that talk the talk about what they will do or won't do in any given situation might be wise to wait until they have walked the walk doing it, in other words, it would be far wiser of them not to believe their own BS.

That is the point.

Jungle Work
BTW-Sometimes it's not a bad idea to pee one's pants before or during combat as it's considered bad form to take a blow or round to a bladder full of p*ss. And the folks here who are not sure what they would do in an armed confrontation will probably do just fine.
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Old March 9, 2005, 02:48 AM   #13
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training, training, training!!!!!!

While it is impossible to know if we will react or freeze under pressure, the one proven thing is that if you do react you will do what you have trained to do provided you undergo consistant, structured, well thought out training. The best money you can spend is in getting decent training in combat type situations. Always pratice as you hope to react: don't worry about dropping your clip on the ground when it is empty. Get rid of it and reload asap. With a revolver, dump the brass on the ground and reload asap.
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Old March 9, 2005, 09:15 AM   #14
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Jungle Work. As I said before I agree with you. Most people would not know what to do, or do something wrong based on something they have seen or read about. Even though I have had training in these areas, I am not 100% sure EXACTLY what I would do either. It depends on the situation.

That is why I believe in group training. To train is to do. Period. You WILL revert to what is common to you in a stressful situation. Some friends of mine get together and do 'what if' drills. One will be BG, ect, and we will set up various situations to train ourselves how to react. It is not 100% but it will give you an edge.
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Old March 9, 2005, 10:42 AM   #15
Jungle Work
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Jungle Work,
One thing is very true, you fight like you train.

Believe it.

Jungle Work
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Old March 10, 2005, 12:05 AM   #16
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Quote:
One thing is very true, you fight like you train.
There it is.

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Old March 10, 2005, 12:34 AM   #17
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I used to often debate this with my cousin (who eventually went into Spec. Forces) and eventually had multiple engagements with the enemy. In his view, he would have preferred to have his first kill at a distance. So after it is done, when the shakes hit you, its far and away.

But since most of us are not snipers, the more likely situation is up close and personal. The only tip he gave me is not to look into the person's eyes and you pull the trigger. Look at the COM. Sometimes, by looking into the eyes, you realize that you are taking out another human being and it might cause you to hesitate. And that will kill you.

Most of us will never encounter a situation where we need to use our firearm, but carrying concealed means, if you have the conviction to carry your weapon and draw it when your life is in danger, you should definately follow through and use it. Otherwise it is a sure way of getting killed. Either by your own weapon taken away from you, or your opponents weapon.

I agree with all the posts that stress training. During a stressful situation, you lose your fine motor skills. Time slows. Adrenaline surges, your training will get you through it. Train often, prepare for the worst.

As former general Douglas McArthur once said : "Above all, it is the soilder who prays for peace."

So we concerned citizens pray for a safe life, and we get it. By preparing for the worst.

Good luck to you all.
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Old March 10, 2005, 12:44 AM   #18
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Killed one person...

In the middle east on my last TOD... it was horrible.

The middle of the night on November 8th 04, a car peeps over the horizon and it drew closer to us. 8pvts, 2 cpls and me were doing perimeter checks when we noticed it heading to the main base entrance.

A middle eastern man had drove up in a white car. We stopped at our 'checkpoint' and would not respond. I instructed him to leave the vehicle, and we were going to search it, once giving him the order be brandished an ak47 with no buttstock from under his seat. I unloaded 3 into his face.

I'll never forget that man's face. I see it every night I come home to bed... and I think, it was him, not me.

My only close and confirmed kill.. I'm sure there are a few more unconfirmed kills from grenades etc tho.
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Old March 10, 2005, 02:47 AM   #19
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I'd like to think I have the cajones to do what's necessary when necessary and the wisdom to know when it's not needed.

I'm in agreement with gb_in_ga about the security guard. He may have felt that he was too far away to safely take a shot. Or there were too many people in his line of sight. Or he was simply uncomfortable taking the shot for legal reasons. If he was in uniform the thought probably flashed through his mind of getting sued by survivors along with his employer and losing his job to boot. Let's face it, he wasn't legally obligated to intervene and didn't. Judgement call.

Circumstances will dictate our responses too. If you're not directly threatened and you're not running at 100% you might elect to avoid a situation rather than voluntarily jump in. If it's a direct threat your choices become much more limited. I think people are more likely to "freeze up" when the threat is somewhat murky by legal standards -- e.g. two or three individuals closing in on you in a parking lot looking like no-goods but not saying or doing anything specifically threatening.
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Old March 10, 2005, 03:15 AM   #20
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I would believe most of the over 40 generation would be in the higher percentage that would. Face it we were brought up with a different set of rules and values. I'm not trying to insult anyone, but the new generation was brought up with more fear of taking action and less regards to your rights. I see it every day here in the posts.

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Old March 10, 2005, 11:39 AM   #21
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Kenny
You win the medal for seeing things as they truly are. Too bad that the X,Y,Zers here, don't realize that not being able to have a true view of reality makes things twice as hard when you try to do them. Look at the way the Generals and Admrials treat the US Combat Forces. If they're mean to the enemy they are in trouble and Lord help the troop who cap a Rag who hasn't tried to kill him first or has kill lots of Coliation troops. And it's comming out now that the US Intelligence Services are infiltrated by Arab moles who are giving intel to Al Queda and other Terrorist Organizations. Sweet Jesus, Political Correctness and the weiners that the baby boomers and they spawn are producing will probably screw up everything. Gonna be tough on those who survive. Might help if they remove their head from their fouth point of contact, as it would clear up their vision. Again Kenny, too bad most of the folks here are not as smart as you.

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Old March 10, 2005, 11:49 AM   #22
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Jungle Work,

I opened this thread to congratulate you for your opening post on the importance of the combat mindset.

With that last post of yours, however, I changed my mind. Just another "Kids these days!" rant like the ones penned by Seneca the Elder lo these millennia ago.

I'm sure that the simpering products of Gen X and Gen Y who are busy smoking tangoes halfway around the world so that you can offer your viewpoints in security appreciate your views.

Wonder what the WWII vets thought about your generation in the SE Asia wargames?

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Old March 10, 2005, 12:15 PM   #23
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I was about to respond to that moronic post but Tamara did it far more succinctly than I could. Nice job.
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Old March 10, 2005, 12:45 PM   #24
Jungle Work
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T,
You hit the nail on the head son. But what you don't realize is that this crap started with my generation, the baby boomers. The X,Y,Zers are just the end products of a of people who were concerned with their own agrandisements that they forgot or didn't give a rat's a$$ about raising their own children. It gets passed down generationally and each generation becomes more and more concerned with their own hedonistic desires.

T, what you fail to realize is that there will always be those who will sacrifice themselves for the good of the nation. And there are those, now a majority who will sacrifice this nation and its' people for their own good.

But then again you have not had the oppurtunity to explain to a mother how the people of this country could elect a Dope Smokin', Draft Dodging Rapist to the highest office in the land, especially since her son, a Navy Medic was killed in an ambush out side of Da Nang while dragging his wounded Marine buddies to safety. She did get a nice medal from the Department of theNavy thru the mail though. What she had, as those addicted to alcohol and dope call it was a moment of clairity. A moment when she saw the sacrifices that her son and thousands of others had made for this country were ****** on by a majority of the citizens of this country. My father and I were discussing this after Bubba's election and he said that the majority of this country cared more about themselves and what they wanted than they cared for the good of this country.

When I gew up, my father and every one of my friend's fathers had served in the military. Now it's the leave it up to a "volunteer" force. That means that most of the young men of this country get to slide by and get by on the sacraficies of a few. As one X generation product told me, the only folks who join the military are the Ni**ers, Mexicans and the white trash who can't get a job or go to college.

What you must realize T, is there will always be those who are good and true Americans and support their country. But what you don't seem to understand is that they are getting fewer and fewer and fewer every day that goes by.
Just as each and every day, there are fewer and fewer and fewer who are
WILLIN'

and if you and your other buds such as MkII, don't understand what I'm saying, I truly feel sorry for you. If it doesn't fit you, then that's to your credit.

Jungle Work

BTW-What I see in this country among the X,Y, Zers is mostly a bunch of suants who Can't and Couldn't Cut it. No matter if it hit them in the face. Not all, but most. Many of the ones who can walk the walk are in the near east. Sin Loi.

Last edited by Jungle Work; March 10, 2005 at 01:56 PM.
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Old March 10, 2005, 03:34 PM   #25
MK11
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But Jungle Work, how come we're getting force-fed these cliches that masquerade as hard-earned wisdom? Even your valid points aren't anything that hasn't been said many, many times before.

More power to you for trying to give everyone a reality check. But the presentation is lacking.
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