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Old March 7, 2005, 02:24 PM   #1
The Colin
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I just wanted to do my laundry!

Well here is a story for you...

As i have posted on here before, I dont live in the best apartment complex. This morning after having a very honest conversation with my landlord I hope to get out of my lease ASAP.

So last night i'm just doing laundry in the coin opperated machines in my complex. At about 11 pm i figure my clothes have to be dry so I put on my shoes and coat and grab my Sig. I'm carrying a Sig Pro 2009 in a IWB holster with CorBon 115gr JHPs and a 3'' folder.

As i enter the laundry room i notice first of all a guy waiting for his laundry to finish. He's drunk holding a beer and he has a large folding knife in his jeans - Not exactly looking like a Boy Scout. I saw the knife and that got me on the defensive from the start, but my dryer had 3 minutes to go. i stand back to the other side of the room my back against the wall and door 5 feet to my right.

10-15 seconds later another guy, even less of a model citizen, storms into the room and heads straight to the other guy. Just as it looks like he is going to hit the guy with the knife he strikes the dryer my clothes are in, cracking the plastic window (OUCH!). Obviously on something, he turns an yells "who the F*ck is using my dryer?!" followed by a stream of four letter words my mother wouldnt approve of. He moves toward the other guy, who starts to palm for his knife. He stops then moves toward me. I promptly grab my gun but do not draw (dont ask me why i didnt, i feel like I should have) i step back and walk out the door facing the crazy guy the whole time.

He then screams a few more obsenities at the other guy and runs out...

So critique me. What did i do wrong? Other than living in a crappy apartment of course!

It is situations like this that remind me how critical it is to be prepared.
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Old March 7, 2005, 02:32 PM   #2
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As long as you were watching your back as you were vacating the premises it sounds as if you acted appropriately.
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Old March 7, 2005, 02:34 PM   #3
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Sounds like you did it right to me. You showed restraint in drawing since your life was not immediately in danger. It would have been bad to draw on an unarmed drunk/high person probably, they may not react to a gun the way a rational person would.
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Old March 7, 2005, 02:57 PM   #4
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I don't think you did anything wrong either.

But I'll bet you're glad you had your SIG!
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Old March 7, 2005, 03:12 PM   #5
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Without the SIG you would have had more clothes to wash !
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Old March 7, 2005, 03:16 PM   #6
The Colin
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You have no idea how glad i was to have the sig....

I just got my CCW about 2 weeks ago, and carrying is still a new thing for me. I'm looking for something a little smaller than the sig pro, but thats for my next paycheck. I'm thinking i'll get an XD sub-compact.

its a mad mad world...
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Old March 7, 2005, 03:37 PM   #7
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so did you ever get your clothes ...?
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Old March 7, 2005, 04:03 PM   #8
The Colin
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haha.. yeah i went and got them about 10 minutes later..... Nothing stands between me and my socks...
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Old March 7, 2005, 09:20 PM   #9
MrBill
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Sounds like you did okay. If you're able to relocate..that would be best. It's sad some good people can't afford the same, stuck where they're at.
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Old March 7, 2005, 10:30 PM   #10
chris in va
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I'm in the same boat. Took the minimum class for CCW, still awaiting more training. But it really sounds to me like ya done good. You were very aware of a potential situation, ready to go but held back.

Was the potential BG aware you were at first base contemplating second?
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Old March 7, 2005, 10:49 PM   #11
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I refuse to live in apartments, did that, been there, never again.

You did well. You didn't pull your gun, you were aware, you knew that you could and would protect yourself if need be.

The biggest thing is to go to the apartment manager and either demand a guard or that you be allowed from your lease based on safety issues. If they refuse then take them to court (you will have to move first and then sue them for inadaquate safety issues).

The times that I was living in apartments I had access to the base laundry and that is what I used while in one and the other, the laundry room was right underneath my apartment (I was right above the basement) and it was keyed for residents only. No bums or whoever could enter. I knew everyone in my complex because my computer (which I was always on) was right by the window that was near the door to get to the basement. This was NY so I didn't (disarmed by the state) to have a pistol but I had my M1 at ready if need be.

My complex had good people in it, I would sit and watch the cops while they did drug busts on the complex right next to me. Luck of the draw, I don't know.

Good luck on everything. You may have to take your landlord to small claims to get any security back and you must have proof (not gun board posts ) as proof of your claim. He (or she) will not give you any slack because they know that they rent to those who need a cheap place (and are law abiding) and those who aren't. To them, anybody's money sits just as well in the bank vault.

Wayne
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Old March 7, 2005, 11:01 PM   #12
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Good job man! And thank the good man above that the situation didn't escalate any further!!
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Old March 7, 2005, 11:46 PM   #13
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Good job, and quick thinking.

But here is something else to consider........

Say the guy freaked out totally, and charged you, and started beating on you, no weapon, just fists, would you have drawn and shot him? Would it have been considered justified? Could you convince a jury that an unarmed man posed you a SERIOUS threat to life and limb when you had a gun?
I'm curious to know what you think about this.....
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Old March 8, 2005, 12:22 AM   #14
The Colin
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In all honesty the answer to your question.. in my mind is ... i dont know. (correct me if i'm wrong) If i recall in Arizona assult is one of the offenses for which it is lawful to draw. Given the situation had it just been fists I would have desperatly tried not to draw - my goal being never to draw if i can avoid it. I did NOT have my pepperspray on my keys, as i ususally do. I'm not small 6'2'' 210 lbs, and i've had my share of practice in a fist fight. That being said this guy was at least my weight and he was absoulutly enraged. Frankly i wouldnt be suprised if he didnt break his hand hitting the dryer as he did.

That video that came out recently where the guy gets his a$$ kicked in the Pizza place comes to mind. It could have easily come to that.

I chose the "nike" defense. I'm glad i did.
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Old March 8, 2005, 07:42 AM   #15
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lol i rember gheto Apt. laundrymats. In my old complex are laundrymat was right next to the gym. The gym had these see through mirriors in them so you could see into the laundry mat while you were working out. So i was runing on the tread meal i think and this homeless guy walkes in to do his laundry and strips naked hiding behind a wahing machine keeping his eye on the front door. LOL he did not know there were two way mirrors and about 7 or 8 people laughing there buts off. One dude opend the other door "i do not guess he saw that one" and said hey partner these are two way mirriors and everyone can see you. He bolted to the bathroom. I was there for a good 20 mins and he still had not come out of the restroom. And i think when i was leaving someone did call the cops.
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Old March 8, 2005, 08:14 AM   #16
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As usual, DT makes a very good point. I try not to second guess any of these situations unless they are totally crazy. There are just to many intangible factors that may not be in the printed post, or even in the conscious mind of the poster.

I see one thing wrong...... If the BG saw your gun, say it was covered by a shirt that you moved back when you placed your hand on it, you should report the incident to law enforcement. The reason for this is to provide a police record in the event the BG goes to the police and claims you pulled the gun and threatened him without provocation. Once he is sober, he might be convincing. So the real issue is did he see the gun, whether it was holstered or not?

Other than that, you did fine. Move ASAP.
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Old March 8, 2005, 08:40 AM   #17
Edison Carter
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Unless somebody feels qualified to explain how to determine
when a drunken enraged man ADVANCING ON YOU
represents imminent deadly threat or grievous bodily harm,
or he ONLY wants to pound your face and gouge out your eye....

I think being ready to administer a Mozambique is perfectly justifiable.

EC
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Old March 8, 2005, 09:11 AM   #18
Derius_T
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I just don't know really. I don't know wether you could convince a jury that a drunk guy, same general size as you, unarmed, posed enough of a threat to warrant drawing a firearm. The words 'excessive force" come to mind.

I believe the poster did the right thing, and should be commended for his restraint. And sorry to bring these questions up, but they are ones that I have wondered about myself for awhile also.

I used to be a bouncer in a really rough bar when I was young. The kind of 'roadhouse' type bar when you just KNEW something stupid was going down every night. I don't know how many times we tossed fighting drunks out on their heads. Sure they fought back. Some of them rather viciously, but in the end, we prevailed because we were sober and in full control, and they were impaired by whatever.

Now, being older, and unable to physically defend myself as I once could, and fully unable to run do to injuries, I wonder when just some punk fighting unarmed with you could turn into a time to draw. Guess its a gut check at the time. Hope I nor anyone else ever have to make it.....

Or like someone else said, you pull gun on drunk, and he gets all brodey because he's drunk, and gets MORE violent BECAUSE he sees your gun. THEN you shoot.....what happens then? Were you a gun crazy cowboy who tried to intimidate the guy, but made the situation worse by waving a gun around just so you could shoot the guy? Or were you an honest armed citizen who was just getting their laundry? Lawyers sure can make the jury think some weird stuff.....
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Old March 8, 2005, 09:45 AM   #19
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Quote:
Now, being older, and unable to physically defend myself as I once could, and fully unable to run do to injuries, I wonder when just some punk fighting unarmed with you could turn into a time to draw. Guess its a gut check at the time. Hope I nor anyone else ever have to make it.....
If you're unable to defend yourself like you once were, and unable to run, and he's determined to fight with you despite your warnings to him and attempts to get away, the moment he's thinking about laying a finger on you is the moment it's time to draw, the way I see it.

The minute he lands the first punch you're no longer in control of the situation - what if he trips you and you hit your head on the curb, and he decides to remodel your face while you're seeing stars?

Reasonable fear of unavoidable immediate great bodily harm or death is the standard. You should consider whether your experience as a bar bouncer may have calloused your sense of "reasonable fear."
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Old March 8, 2005, 11:57 AM   #20
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As to being assaulted with only fists. We recently had 2 high school seniors get into a heated discussion at a party. 1 boy threw 1 punch the other went down. Before the night was over he died from that 1 punch (apparently he flinched as the punch landed and the combination of forces caused a whiplash effect). So is an assault with only fist cause for armed defense? I believe so.
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Old March 8, 2005, 12:19 PM   #21
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Fisticuffs can easily be life threatening, even if he's a little guy. Anyone can do a martial arts effective move or even just get in a (un) lucky punch. You just can't tell. Doesn't mean you have to shoot them, just that you might need to. Certainly don't rule out the possibility.

And I'm sure I seen that guy do a martial arts gesture just before I shot him. I had to at that point, I'm no martial artist!

( never shot anyone in 20 yrs of carry, but came close a couple times and always fortunately found another way out.)
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Old March 8, 2005, 01:01 PM   #22
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Whether we, the well informed participants of a gun forum, believe that one punch can kill or not is immaterial. What must be considered is whether the DA and/or the community where you live has the same belief. Time and time again it has been shown that the facts of a case do not matter. What matters is who and what the DA and jury believes. Facts do not win criminal cases. Facts can support your case, but they do not win by default. The only thing that wins a criminal case is convincing a jury from your community. Note I did not say "a jury of your peers".

A disparity of force is a perception, not an absolute. If there is a disparity of force percieved by the jury, you will have an extremely difficult time proving your life was in jeopardy. If you cannot prove your life/well being was in jeopardy, then your case for self defense is gone.
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Old March 8, 2005, 01:41 PM   #23
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"As to being assaulted with only fists. We recently had 2 high school seniors get into a heated discussion at a party. 1 boy threw 1 punch the other went down. Before the night was over he died from that 1 punch (apparently he flinched as the punch landed and the combination of forces caused a whiplash effect). So is an assault with only fist cause for armed defense? I believe so."

Les
Can you provide some details regarding this? I would like to file this away for future reference. Any info would be great, report number, case number, city and state, aprox date and so on...

This is the kind of history that would be helpful in showing deadly force...
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Old March 8, 2005, 02:11 PM   #24
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Xavierbreath, you make good points. I was being somewhat facietious and somewhat not. It is best not to shoot the guy.

I wonder how a jury would look at a guy who engaged in a fistfight for defense but did not pull his weapon? I expect he would receive extra charges for the arm but the jury may see the reasonableness and restraint.

In fact, 'would it' be reasonable to engage in hand to hand when carrying? The guy may disarm you and escalate the situation where there may not have been an escalation if it weren't for the presense of the arm. Hmmm.

No easy answers.
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Old March 8, 2005, 02:11 PM   #25
chris in va
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Last night I saw this new pepper spray device that mounts to the picatinny rail on a handgun, similar to a light. You draw and hose them with OC first before resorting to deadly force. It only takes one hand to operate too.

But I see how OC would have worked better in your situation. No one *really* wants to injure/kill someone else, despite how irate and threatening they may be. I bought my friend some OC as she works graveyard at a hotel and sees some really...interesting...people.
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