The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > Hogan's Alley > Tactics and Training

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old March 4, 2005, 11:54 PM   #26
Dwight55
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 18, 2004
Location: Central Ohio
Posts: 2,559
Thanks, Kennybs, . . .

"You draw and the out come is up to the robber at that point." Right now the biggest problem we face in this country is not the Democrats (though they do rank high), . . . its not the deficit, . . . its not cancer, . . . alcoholism, smoking, gambling and a bunch of other things.

Simply stated it is accountability. Anyone, anywhere, can do just about any darn thing they want to do, . . . no accountability, . . . no recourse, . . . no feet held to the fire.

It's time to take that back, . . . beginning with this bg. HE decided to be an armed robber. HE pulled the screwdriver. HE said gimme the cash. HE decided of his own free will and personal conscious decision, . . . "I'd rather rob than have a job."

Time to make him accountable. "On the floor, . . . dirtbag, . . . or John Moses Browning's best invention is just liable to help you pay your debt to society, here, now, today. End of sentence!"

I wouldn't shoot him if he decided to run, . . . but at 60, . . . I'm not fighting someone half or 1/3 my age, who is fighting for 20 or 30 bucks of someone else's money. If he crosses the plane in my mind from just a stupid jerk with a screwdriver, . . . to a serious threat to my health and well being, . . . it will be his last earthly crossing. Next one will be to wherever jerks with screwdrivers spend their eternity.

May God bless,
Dwight
__________________
www.dwightsgunleather.com
If you can breathe, . . . thank God!
If you can read, . . . thank a teacher!
If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!
Dwight55 is offline  
Old March 5, 2005, 01:31 AM   #27
Garand Illusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,278
Quote:
Whaaat? While you was packing? Why even carry a gun then? If someone threatens violence you have to assume he'll step it up a notch and carry through if allowed. Don't encourage the criminal element by being permissive!
I know what you're saying ... I even mostly agree with you, my friend. But it's just not reality.

If I felt I was about to get stabbed or if the person didn't back down ... oh yeah! I'd defend myself.

But unless I'm defending my life, drawing a gun at a 7-11 is going to cause me more trouble than it's worth.

Places like 7-11 pretty much have a deal with the criminals; the clerks are unarmed and told not to resist, but there is never very much cash in the register.

If you owned all the 7-11's, would you want all of your clerk's armed? If so, BG's would know about it too and ALWAYS come in packing and/or shooting.

I'm not a "passive public" fan, but I understand why corporation think why they do. Write or wrong, passive is cheaper.

As for me ... I've got a wife, a mortgage, and a kid that depend on me. Not going to endanger that stability for the pleasure of taking 1 2-bit punk off the streets.
Garand Illusion is offline  
Old March 5, 2005, 03:00 AM   #28
thelast2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 6, 2005
Location: Eagle River, Alaska
Posts: 118
Quote:
A license to carry a firearm is not a license to use it. Under Florida law, you can use deadly force only if you reasonably believe yourself or another person to be in danger of death or serious personal injury, or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony (such as rape, robbery or carjacking). There are two important concepts to remember: The first is the "Duty To Retreat"; this means that if you can avoid the danger by running away, then run away, no matter how you may feel that this affects your honor. The second is the "Castle Doctrine", which means that you do NOT have a "Duty To Retreat" when in your own home or place of business; you can stand your ground and defend your premises and possessions even if you could avoid personal danger by running away
Ok JimW this should help clarify the use of Deadly Force laws in Florida the following is the link to the site which is very reputable and you will see it qouted quite often by members here.
http://www.packing.org/state/index.jsp/florida
__________________
"Genius Has Limitations, Stupidity Does Not"
thelast2 is offline  
Old March 5, 2005, 04:34 AM   #29
gb_in_ga
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2005
Location: Wylie, Tx
Posts: 3,010
Personally, I'd pull and shoot. He's engaging in aggravated robbery of your store or your place of employment. He is threatening you with a weapon that can conceivably be considered lethal. Seems like a justifiable shoot, to me. If the local laws are against that, and the prosecutor is a headhunter and pursues it, I'd be thinking of a jury nullification -- any reasonable judge or jury would toss the case. I mean, laws like that are so f****d up that's why there's that whole concept of jury nullification in the first place.
__________________
COME AND TAKE IT
http://www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/batgon.htm
Formerly lived in Ga, but now I'm back in Tx!
gb_in_ga is offline  
Old March 5, 2005, 11:03 AM   #30
38SnubFan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 15, 2004
Location: Harrisburg, PA USA
Posts: 118
If the jackass came in to rob me and threaten my life with a screwdriver, I'd draw my weapon, aim for his COM or CNS, and politely advise him that he brought the wrong tool with him for a gunfight. I also would try to detain him for the police; but if he ran, I'm not going to give chase - just give the police a good description and last known direction of travel.

Quote:
I would do a quick draw and shoot the screwdriver out of his hand. All of this I would do with out aiming, like the movies.


-38SnubFan
__________________
Sure, you can have my gun...BULLETS FIRST!

"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men and women stand ready to do violence on their behalf." -A token of appreciation for the good cops.

"Good cheer and steady aim are always fashionable."

"Will...if need be!"

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΑΛΒΕ!
38SnubFan is offline  
Old March 5, 2005, 12:13 PM   #31
Shamus
Member
 
Join Date: May 31, 2004
Location: Ohio Valley
Posts: 94
Watching the video shots on TV of some 15 or so robberies of convince stores and seeing everything from BG shooting up the place and escapes to BG lays his gun on counter and Shop keeper picks it up and shoots BG to employee pulls gun from under counter and BG drops ball bat as she chases him out of store while emptying the mag to BG can’t open register so he tries to carry it of out of store and employee whacks him with a bottle of Cherry Vodka……… Well just too many real-life scenarios with varied outcomes.

Bottom line is it’s on tape, so as long as your reaction is justifiable why be concerned. As to Company policy’s I’d carry anyway. I mean what’s a 7-11 Corp guy gonna do, fire you? If you break their store policy all that can happen is you lose your job. If you’re a hero and shoot the guy then that won’t happen, if you are shot and the BG flees and maybe you wounded them, then what? 7-11 gonna sue you? Nope, you were in fear of loosing your life. Will they pay for your defense? Yep, they can’t afford the bad publicity.

I like to keep in mind the real possibility that if the SHTF it’s probably on tape, be it parking lot or inside a building. With that approach I have acceptable back-up to my story and all I need do is follow the rules of the State for using deadly force.

(but we don't have any 7-11's around here anymore. They closed due to the high incidence of robbery).
Shamus is offline  
Old March 5, 2005, 03:24 PM   #32
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,331
Quote:
all that can happen is you lose your job. If you’re a hero and shoot the guy then that won’t happen, if you are shot and the BG flees and maybe you wounded them, then what? 7-11 gonna sue you? Nope, you were in fear of loosing your life. Will they pay for your defense? Yep, they can’t afford the bad publicity.
I agree that carrying is better than not but a bunch of this is incorrect.

1. If you shoot and are a hero you will still be fired because you acted contrary to 7-11 policy.
2. You will not be sued by 7-11 but you may be by the robber or the robber's family.
3. 7-11 will not pay for your defense because you acted contrary to 7-11 policy.
4. They're not afraid of bad publicity from firing you or not paying your defense, they care about MONEY. They're afraid that THEY will be sued by the robber/robber's family. By cutting all ties with you (firing you) and because you acted contrary to their policy, they can say that they have no responsibility for your actions and therefore be virtually immune from liability with respect to the robber.
JohnKSa is offline  
Old March 5, 2005, 04:44 PM   #33
Derius_T
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 29, 2004
Location: South West OHIO (boondocks)
Posts: 1,337
Personally, I step back as far as possible and draw. Tell him to drop the screwdriver. If he moves towards me, he gets STOPPED. If he runs, I go lock front doors and call 911. A screwdriver can certainly kill. And I am NOT going to die or be injured while I am armed if I can help it PERIOD.
Derius_T is offline  
Old March 5, 2005, 09:23 PM   #34
JohnKSa
Staff
 
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 18,331
Just a side note. I was in a rush when I typed the reply above.

A coworker was carrying a firearm on a job for the company where I currently work. It was suggested by his management that the type of job he was doing made a firearm a useful accessory.

He had a negligent discharge which resulted in a fatality. The circumstances of the case were such that my coworker was not criminally liable. The family of the dead person sued the company in civil court, NOT my coworker--HE doesn't have any money. The case stalled because there was no evidence that his management had actually suggested or even knew that he was carrying a firearm while on company business.

When an email surfaced that showed both were true, the company settled out of court for 4 million. Now we have a strict no firearms policy. Not even locked in your vehicle on the company parking lot. Not even if you have a CHL permit.

It's all about money. Companies don't care anything about their employees--only their liability.
JohnKSa is offline  
Old March 6, 2005, 01:28 PM   #35
sean85746
Member
 
Join Date: February 24, 2005
Posts: 64
...."Do you really want to do that?"

I was working in my Pap's Chevron station here in Arizona when I was 18. I got stuck with the night shift. We didn't do a lot of night business...it was an old-style service station..8 pumps, soda cooler, cigarettes, and oil. Pap being Pap, he wanted me there to clean the station at night, and might as well sell a few gallons of gas while I was at it.

I was out hosing down the lot at around 2:00am when a guy walked into the lot. He was REAL scrubby, and the smell of old beer and urine preceeded him.

I was carrying my Smith & Wesson Model 66 snubby in an old Bianchi IWB holster, just to the right of my belt buckle. CCW Permits didn't exist here yet, but CCW was legal on private property with the permission of the owner, or lessor of the property. Obviously, I had permission!

I went inside, behind the counter and waited for "stinky" to get through with what he wanted. He asked for a pack of Bugler tobacco and some matches. I set them on the counter, and when I did, he opened up his jacket, and showed me a cheap sheath knife, and told me he wanted the money.

I stepped back a step, lifted MY shirt with my left hand, and put my hand on the stock of my .357, and asked..."Do you really want to do that?"

"Uh...Uh...Uh...$hit...you ain't supposed to have a gun!" he said as he back-pedalled to the door, and tripped over the wheel cart with all the oil on it.

I never saw him again...
sean85746 is offline  
Old March 6, 2005, 01:30 PM   #36
springfieldmaniac
Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2004
Posts: 55
Honestly;if you care more about liability than your life,your CCW is useless.Screw 7-11.Do you want to die or fight a court case against the victims family? I don't know about any State law that you have to be attacked with only a gun or knife to defend yourself,I'm no expert but that doesn't follow most lethal force laws.If someone attacks with any object baseball bat,tire iron,stabbing intsrument screwdriver etc.You fear for your life,you have met lethal force requirements in most States.Some require an attempt to retreat,but that is not always practical.You may have a hard time explaining you shot someone for trying to stab you with a pencil,although potentially deady.
However,a screwdriver is an intimidating dangerous make shift weapon as deadly as any dirk/stilletto.
springfieldmaniac is offline  
Old March 6, 2005, 01:38 PM   #37
springfieldmaniac
Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2004
Posts: 55
Quote:
"If you owned all the 7-11's, would you want all of your clerk's armed? If so, BG's would know about it too and ALWAYS come in packing and/or shooting."


Trust me if the bad guy's thought all 7-11 employees were armed,it would be the last place they would be visiting.
springfieldmaniac is offline  
Old March 6, 2005, 01:52 PM   #38
cuate
Junior member
 
Join Date: February 18, 2005
Location: Comanche Co. Texas
Posts: 737
What Would You Do?

A different slant, here in Texas the owner can carry handgun in plain sight on his premises, his employees may if he permits them to, in which case the BG likely gives the place a wide berth.

On the other hand you might get in a stance to draw, announce, "I am armed and you drop the screwdriver and lay face down on the floor". The BG will likely tear down the door exiting the scene.

And then you may just have to shoot him if he pursues the matter,
cuate is offline  
Old March 6, 2005, 02:08 PM   #39
springfieldmaniac
Member
 
Join Date: May 22, 2004
Posts: 55
I would also like to add.There is nothing wrong with finding out what reprecusions there is to certain actions.If you are more concerned with being sued by the Bad guy's family after defending yourself,you will cause yourself to delay in reacting to defending yourself.After a quick sum up of the situation you need to decide what action you will take.This happens in mili-seconds in your mind when the SHTF.Start to think about a civil suit as a well as a grand jury when you should be thinking of saving your arse,you may just wind up getting killed.It should not be difficult to determine when you need to defend yourself.There are too many "what if" scenerios and variables you will not be able to have them all worked out before something happens.
springfieldmaniac is offline  
Old March 6, 2005, 02:21 PM   #40
Maxprime
Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2005
Posts: 42
Obviously it depends on your states laws - you'd be stopping him from aggravated robbery, justified in Texas with the use of deadly force. If you live in a liberal county *sigh*, I don't know how well this would go over with a jury. I think it's an easy call, he's commiting armed robbery on you - but with a crappy weapon. You pull and let him know what's going to happen if he moves while you wait 30 minutes for the cops to arrive. He makes a lunge with a sharp, pointed, metal object at you - it's an easy call.
__________________
Beretta 92FS
Kel-Tec P-3AT
Glock 17
Walther P22
Armalite M4
Maxprime is offline  
Old March 6, 2005, 08:35 PM   #41
Garand Illusion
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,278
Quote:
Trust me if the bad guy's thought all 7-11 employees were armed,it would be the last place they would be visiting.
For a large percentage you're right, of course. But we tend to give BG's way too much credit. A lot of stupid guys out there who are going to present their 9mm right away and say ... "you feel lucky, 7-11 clerk? Well ... do you?" Or else they just pull the trigger without saying anything and get another gun.

For some BG's, knowing there is a gun in every 7-11 makes them more of a target instead of less.

You've got one minimum wage half spaced out guy working in an open counter with a gun at 3:00 a.m. Nothing separating him from the general public. 3 punks go in to buy cigarettes, they suddenly grab him, drag him over the counter, and then they're the ones with the gun.

Nope. If I owned 7-11's I would probably turn a blind eye if my clerk decided to carry concealed on his own, but unless he's in a secured area (where he can react to people before they can reach him) carrying only is of no real benefit. I would not want to carry openly if I was a 7-11 clerk.
Garand Illusion is offline  
Old March 6, 2005, 10:49 PM   #42
guntotin_fool
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2004
Posts: 1,446
I have a Florida Non resident permit and I read the rules very diligently, and I come up with this.

776.012* Use of force in defense of person....
(YOU are allowed to use deadly force as soon as you reach this point.....)

However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.

776.08* Forcible felony "Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

In reading the states web site or the handbook that came with my permit
I find nothing that describes the weapon or limits it to certian limits. on and again i quote from the States website...."to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony."

NOTHING but your judgement says if I do not shoot, I will be hurt or killed, or some one else will be, OR someone will commit a FORCIBLE FELONY..actually quite simply put for state documents.
guntotin_fool is offline  
Old March 7, 2005, 08:25 AM   #43
doubleaes2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Posts: 282
it was my understanding that here in florida, you do not have to retreat from your place of residence or your place of business.
__________________
The best index to a person's character is (a) How he treats people who can't do him any good, and (b), How he treats people who can't fight back. Abigail Van Buren
doubleaes2 is offline  
Old March 7, 2005, 11:10 AM   #44
Joe Demko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 14, 2000
Posts: 1,143
It'd have to be one of those split-second judgement things. If, at that moment, I thought he was a genuine threat, I'd step back and shoot him where he stood. If, on the other hand, I thought he was just a shakey jackass, I'd permit him to live and might even give him the money. I've yet to have the employer I loved so much that I would kill or die to protect $50 of their money.
__________________
"No honest man needs a handgun smaller than a canned ham."
Bill Ruger
Joe Demko is offline  
Old March 7, 2005, 07:29 PM   #45
9mmsnoopy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 14, 2004
Location: Thrillsville ,Tx
Posts: 903
"If, on the other hand, I thought he was just a shakey jackass, I'd permit him to live and might even give him the money. "


why on earth would you give him the money? because you have sympathy for him? he has a screwdriver and you have a gun, not a chance he gets the money from me, i have zero regard for criminals.
__________________
beretta cx4 storm .40 caliber
sig P290
Kahr PM9 Glock 26
Bushmaster AR15
9mmsnoopy is offline  
Old March 7, 2005, 07:34 PM   #46
Lion In Winter
Member
 
Join Date: January 22, 2005
Posts: 67
The clerk should direct him to the proper aisle-that has the screw he needs.

Seriously, whoever taught that a screwdriver is not lethal, well, has his own screw loose!
Lion In Winter is offline  
Old March 8, 2005, 09:29 AM   #47
cxm
Member
 
Join Date: October 11, 2004
Location: Tejas
Posts: 39
Florida Self Defense

I don't think the statement that in Florida the ED would have to have a gun or knife is accurate. A screw driver can be a weapon, all depends on the context. The Florida statutes look like most states... and you can use force to prevent a forcible felony.

Sounds like someone was "puffing"

FWIW

Chuck

----------------------------------------------

Here is what the actual Florida statutes have to say about self defense.

"776.012 Use of force in defense of person.--A person is justified in the use of force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony."
cxm is offline  
Old March 8, 2005, 12:51 PM   #48
Joe Demko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 14, 2000
Posts: 1,143
Quote:
why on earth would you give him the money?
Did you miss the part where I said I would neither kill nor die for $50 of 7-11's money?
The whole of this discussion is moot, for I do not work as a clerk at a convenience store, nor have I ever done so.
If that is your spot on the socio-economic food chain, you do as you think best (advice I seem to give over and over in this forum).
__________________
"No honest man needs a handgun smaller than a canned ham."
Bill Ruger
Joe Demko is offline  
Old March 8, 2005, 01:04 PM   #49
gb_in_ga
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 15, 2005
Location: Wylie, Tx
Posts: 3,010
Golgo-13:

While I sympathize with your concept of not being willing to kill over an employer's $50, I am not willing to die over it. The problem is that all too often, those bandits kill even cooperative clerks just because. No reason, just because. Even shaky jackasses attack just because. That being the case, I'd go ahead and shoot: Not over some measly $50, but to save my own precious (to me, at least) hide.
__________________
COME AND TAKE IT
http://www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/batgon.htm
Formerly lived in Ga, but now I'm back in Tx!
gb_in_ga is offline  
Old March 8, 2005, 01:44 PM   #50
Joe Demko
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 14, 2000
Posts: 1,143
Quote:
While I sympathize with your concept of not being willing to kill over an employer's $50, I am not willing to die over it.
Please go back and read what I posted in its entirety and respond to that. I already stated that I am perfectly willing to kill in self-defense. I also clearly stated, twice, that I am not willing to die over somebody else's $50.
__________________
"No honest man needs a handgun smaller than a canned ham."
Bill Ruger
Joe Demko is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2014 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.13426 seconds with 7 queries