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Old March 3, 2005, 08:20 PM   #26
9mmsnoopy
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sounds like the texas class is better than floridas, but i still would have liked alot more details/scenarios. its just an 8 hour class, i guess they cant cover everything in 8 hours.
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Old March 3, 2005, 08:35 PM   #27
Harlie
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Instead of

Complaining about the class, take away from it what you were there for, A CCW. Issues now have been raised that you must educate yourself about due to the instruction. I believe you bought into a program that didn't set well with you. Upgrade your understanding of the laws and restrictions, attend a Advanced School of your choice and understand that you are now held to a higher standard then most, as a CCW holder. And welcome to the world of CCW.
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Old March 3, 2005, 08:50 PM   #28
abelew
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The first thing I would do is become very knowledgable about the times you can use your CCW, from the statues. In FL, my understanding (I could be wrong), is that you can use your weapon to protect yourself or others from serious bodily harm or death with your weapon. Legally, you have to be able to proove the threat (did they approach you with visable weapons, or a large group of large guys that were threatening). The statues do not provide any legal defense from civil liability (wrongfull death, etc.). Also realize that if you pull your gun, your probably going to get sued, because people in this country are really hankering for easy money, even if you were justified in your actions. You can be sued for using your gun to defend yourself in your own home, to defend yourself. Remember the burglar who was trying to break in through a skylight, and fell through, landing on a butchers knife, and sued the home owner, and won. Or the guy who broke in while a family was away, and accidentally got locked in the garage, had to survive on stuff in the garage for a week till the family got home, and sued the homeowners and won? When a lady in Colorado can buy a cup of coffee (which everyone knows is hot), puts it in between her legs, and spills it, burning her legs, and sues McDonalds, and wins millions of dollars, you can be sued for anything, and probably lose.

Legal Disclaimer:
I am not a lawyer, nor do I proclaim to be one. What was stated above is not to be construed as legal advice. Your circumstances might be different. I might be wrong. You are responsible for your actions, and knowing the laws pertaining to where you live and your CCW.
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Old March 3, 2005, 08:55 PM   #29
Mannlicher
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With certain attitude and maturity levels , its probably a good thing if some folks are not given CCW cards.
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Old March 3, 2005, 09:27 PM   #30
emt118
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In Ohio we are allowed to carry on our person in a holster in plain sight or in a locked glove box or in a locked box on the seat ..
The plain sight rule was put in the law thanks to the great ohio state patrol or they would not support the bill HB-12 .....not a real big deal unless you are carrying in a shoulder holster than when others drive by they call 911 and report a nut driving around with a gun ,,,,,,, (I am also a 911 dispatcher ) so we did get a call or two about that .....just my 2c
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Old March 3, 2005, 09:44 PM   #31
CapnBald
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Florida, about to get better

I;ve held a Fl permit for about 7 years now. Sure, there places that you can't carry but not that many. Here if you have a permit you can carry conceled on your person in a car. without a permit you can still carry as long as it's securely inclosed, glove compartment, console, zippered case , or a holster with a strap. I took my training with the Collier Co. Sherrifs Dept. 16 hours class room including one session with their attourney. Also 12 hours on their range with 1 Deputy to 2 students as a coach. Total cost, what you spent on ammo, nothing more.
Now with the new measures in the works to enable you to stand your ground and I think even as important, is the part about not having to worry about losing every thing you own in a civil lawsuit, makes Florida about as good as it's gonna get
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Old March 4, 2005, 10:17 AM   #32
Shamus
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I agree with others that have said your instructor missed a chance to educate and thats a shame.

I'd suggest you continue your quest to seek information about what Fl state and local laws require and then adapt. If your serious about CCW I'd look into what other classes are available and take a few.

I have an Ohio, Pa and Fl license. I have to collect data from each area I'll be traveling in to have some idea how the local LE "might" react to an out of state guy with a gun.

Bottom line is I won't travel without a loaded gun and I'm willing to jump through those hoops to do so.

Stay safe.
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Old March 4, 2005, 10:59 AM   #33
H-man
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I agree that you should just consider this a starting point, if you have never had additional training. Definitely budget a class with Jeff Gonzales, Pat Rogers, Paul Howe or one of the many other quality instructors out there. Although it has been years since I trained with Mas Ayoob, he is an excellent source of info. on the legal aspects of the use of deadly force.
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Old March 4, 2005, 11:08 AM   #34
Blind Tree Frog
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OK I'm not seeing how the course was a waste since apparently you were going to get yourself in trouble before you took it anyhow. The laws don't change about when you can shoot someone just because you have a CCW, so now you at least know when you can and can't. It sounds like before you took the CCW course, you were on a good path to get yourself into a lot of trouble legally when you use your gun unwarrantedly.

Yeah, there are lots of restrictions because people don't trust other people with guns or weapons in general. Some of the restrictions are stupid. Some are not. The restrictions saying that you can't shoot someone until there is an immediate threat don't seem stupid to me at all. Consider I'm jogging down a trail at night and the woman infront of me decides that I'm stalking her and shoots me to keep herself safe just because she's a paranoid little nut. Too many people are not of the right mindset to just be given an open license to kill.
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Old March 4, 2005, 02:46 PM   #35
brickeyee
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Part of the problem with defining when you can use deadly force is that it is not enshrined in the written law, but is based on case law.
In Virginia there are justifiable and excusable homicides. They are purely a function of the case law, and being such every actual case is different.
Some of the Commonwealth Attorneys are very anti-gun and have even given orders to arrest anyone involved in a citizen shooting (Arlington). Others have made no statements (or have been more discrete in their statements).

If you think about this, it is very similar to the ‘right of way’ concept in driving. In Virginia there are no laws granting you the right of way, just laws defining when you do not have it.

Homicide is illegal. The case law decides what the exceptions are since only it can consider the totality of event on a case by case basis.

Other states may have more clearly defind laws, but none are very likely to tell you when you can shoot. Most of the other ones I have examined provide a defense, but not permission.
Case law is typically available at larger public libraries in the law section in annual editions with links to previous cases.
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Old March 4, 2005, 02:57 PM   #36
Double Naught Spy
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JimW, I can't tell from your posts if you know the difference between a bad CCW course, or being in a state with some fairly restrictive lethal force and gun laws. You complained that the course was a waste, but your complaints were about the laws you didn't like.

abelew said,
Quote:
Legal Disclaimer:
I am not a lawyer, nor do I proclaim to be one. What was stated above is not to be construed as legal advice. Your circumstances might be different. I might be wrong. You are responsible for your actions, and knowing the laws pertaining to where you live and your CCW.
Sorry bud, but legal disclaimers don't cover the fact that you provided an interpretation of the law and suggested behaviors relative to the interpretation. So, you are most definitely giving legal advice even if you don't think so. Oh darn, now I have done it too!
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Old March 4, 2005, 03:39 PM   #37
mvpel
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In any hypothetical situation you can concieve of a way that you can avoid drawing or firing your sidearm.

The advice to look at case law is good, but this excludes individuals who were not arrested in the first place, or who were no-billed by the Grand Jury. Looking at real-life situations and their outcomes is a sensible approach to take, and some general principles can be derived, such as "always be the first one to call the cops."
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Old March 4, 2005, 04:20 PM   #38
JimW
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Let me clarify for some:
1. The only good thing was that I got my CCW
2. I didn't learn anything that couldn't have been covered in 10 minutes
3. There are NO scenarios outside the home where I'm justified for pulling my gun UNLESS the perpetrators weapon is already visible
4. As stated before, pepper spray is your only option outside the home for numerous reasons
5. You are definetly restricted as to where you can CCW--no Gov. properties, schools, athletic events, colleges, pool halls, bars, state parks(beaches), resteraunts(bar area), any establishment that puts the sign "no firearms", etc...
6. I will constantly have to transfer my weapon to the trunk daily to have a CCW.
As to the post earlier about a group of people approaching in a threating manner---doesn't matter still can't pull or even tell them I have a weapon UNTIL they pull a weapon(too late then). Give me a scenario and I wil tell you exactly what he said in response. There was a case he told us where a man filling his tank with gas was approached by 3 men and demanded his money---they started beating him up and he ended up shooting (killing) 1 suspect---he's now serving 5 years for not running as 1 scenario or 2 not spraying them with gas instead of pulling his weapon!
Of course you have to have the course to get a CCW, but let me save you alot of time here---shoot anybody you want in the house, don't EVER shoot outside the house(basically), and thus carry pepper spray to defend yourself.
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Old March 4, 2005, 04:28 PM   #39
Blind Tree Frog
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Except, all of those held true before you had your CCW license anyhow, so why are you complaining?
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Old March 4, 2005, 05:06 PM   #40
mvpel
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*** state are you in, and WTH kind of pissant incompotent lawyer did that gas station guy have?

Ever consider relocating to a Free State?
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Old March 4, 2005, 06:27 PM   #41
JimW
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In Florida and I have no idea what lawyer but the point is you never know I guess.
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Old March 4, 2005, 06:29 PM   #42
Bullrock
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I've never been to a CCW course and I have a permit to carry. There are many of us who are self taught, military trained, LEO trained.

In my opinion a CCW course only feeds the anti-gun bueacracy. When did the Founding Fathers come up with, we all have the right to bear arms, but not under our clothes without a CCW course? Hello!

Maybe I've been around too long.
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Old March 4, 2005, 06:31 PM   #43
XavierBreath
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Jim,
It sounds to me like you got a lot out of the class. As I said, not many instructors will go out on a limb and tell you when you CAN shoot, but most will tell you when you cannot. When you can shoot is judgement, not clear cut.
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Old March 4, 2005, 06:32 PM   #44
JimW
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Except, all of those held true before you had your CCW license anyhow, so why are you complaining?

2 things:
1. They could cover the essential information in 10 minutes instead of 3.5 hours
2. Seems like an awful lot of time and money to be told that CCW is pretty much a PITA due to restrictions and pepper spray is your only option---just trying to save some of you some time---at home no doubt get a gun and shoot anyone who enters(don't need CCW)---away from home forget CCW and carry pepper spray or you could be looking at jail time in almost any scenario you pull your gun and live!
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Old March 4, 2005, 07:39 PM   #45
mvpel
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Jim, in Florida, 776.012:
===
... the person is justified in the use of deadly force only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony.
===

Elements:

REASONABLE BELIEF - if a reasonable person would come to the same conclusion as you did under the circumstances

NECESSARY - other lesser alternative unavailable

IMMINENT - happening right here and now, or in the immediate future

GREAT BODILY HARM - according to Washington State: "bodily injury which creates a probability of death, or which causes significant serious permanent disfigurement, or which causes a significant permanent loss or impairment of the function of any bodily part or organ"

FORCIBLE FELONY - 776.08 - "Forcible felony" means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

Aggravated battery involves use of a weapon or a battery of a pregnant person, and aggravated assault is assault with a weapon or with intent to commit a felony.

Unarmed robbery is still a forcible felony, 812.13(c).

If there was no other way available to stop an unarmed robber, deadly force would be justified in Florida.
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Old March 4, 2005, 08:25 PM   #46
brett23
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JimW, I live in Florida and I'm waiting for my ccw (2 weeks out). As I posted in an earlier post, the laws for ccw in Florida are about to change for the better. We will no longer have the "duty to retreat". We will be allowed to stand our ground if the threat is so justified. There is more to the law change but I can't think of the rest off the top of my head.
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Old March 4, 2005, 09:17 PM   #47
Edison Carter
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Jim, I don't know if you just have a bad attitude,
or whether you took your class from the wrong people.

Some so-called trainers are so.... RISK AVERSIVE,
shall we say, that they try to scare you about the legal
possiblities so you never shoot anybody and thus, they
cannnot be held responsible.

Florida's legal principle of retreat is stupid, and archaic.
But even that is not as constraining as some might think.

I believe the language of most of these statutes is something
to the effect of retreating with COMPLETE safety.
That is not partial safety, not relative safety, that is not
fleeing, with savages running you down.

You mentioned you have that bad knee, in another thread,
didn't you? (wink wink) Means you can't run worth a darn,
RIGHT? Even defense hostile places like Commiefornia, and
Massachussets will acknowledge that a disparity, in size,
numbers, or weapons, reinforces your claim of self defense.

If a lawyer can't get the "lack of retreat" tossed right off,
he should be selling shoes.

A CCW class (even a good one) is just a starting point.
If you want to survive a gunfight and be sure that your actions
are legally defensible, get more training.

EC
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Old March 4, 2005, 10:21 PM   #48
MoW
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Unarmed robbery is still a forcible felony, 812.13(c).

If there was no other way available to stop an unarmed robber, deadly force would be justified in Florida.
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Not true according to the course I took a while back. If he was in your home yes, but if he were trying to rob you(without a weapon) or carjack(they said drive away) you would have an incredibly hard time explaining that you killed an unarmed man over something that can be replaced by insurance---not worth the risk. Let him have the car, money etc...Sucks but true in Fla.
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Old March 4, 2005, 10:36 PM   #49
MoW
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From section 790.15--disharging a firearm in public
(2) Any occupant of any vehicle who knowingly and willfully discharges any firearm from the vehicle within 1,000ft of any person commits a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided...

See, they told us NEVER to fire your gun from a car in any circumstance----let them have the car or money period or YOU then face consequences.
Case in point, man was being robbed in his car at an ATM, the robber had a weapon--got the money and began to flee when the man in the car shot at him--missing the robber and hitting(killing) an 8yr old girl in the back seat of a car some distance away. Man's in deep ----. Even at that point when the robber had a weapon, he was fleeing and the man who shot was no longer in danger for his life--he would have been in trouble for just firing his weapon as the man fled, but now his life is over criminally and civil.
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Old March 5, 2005, 09:15 AM   #50
mvpel
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MoW wrote:
Quote:
Not true according to the course I took a while back. If he was in your home yes, but if he were trying to rob you(without a weapon) or carjack(they said drive away) you would have an incredibly hard time explaining that you killed an unarmed man over something that can be replaced by insurance---not worth the risk. Let him have the car, money etc...Sucks but true in Fla.
What I was citing was Florida Statutes Chapter 776, Justifiable Use of Force. True? The law in Florida is the final arbiter of what's true or false when it comes to the law in Florida.

If you are being robbed without a weapon, it is a forcible felony, and if you reasonably believe that drawing your gun and firing is "necessary to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony," then you are justified in doing so.

If you can't escape because have a bum knee or asthma, if you can't talk him out of it, if it's NECESSARY, then you're justified, even if he's unarmed.

If you're being carjacked, and you're blocked in and can't escape, then deadly defensive force is justified, because carjacking is a forcible felony, and being blocked in would lead anyone to a "reasonable belief" that it was "necessary" to "prevent the imminent commission" of that crime.

Yes, it's true, you might be forced to explain your actions to a jury. But if you hire a lawyer who's not anti-gun and who didn't get his degree from a cracker-jack box, you'll get on the stand, and explain each of these elements: "reasonable belief," "necessary," "imminent," "great bodily harm," and "forcible felony."

And the jury, if they believe you, will be forced to acquit you.

You need to memorize this statute, and the "doctrine of competing harms," rather than buying into all the tall tales your CCW instructor told you.

Because if you die with the words of your CCW instructor going through your mind, as the next-to-last thing before the "unarmed robber's" boot, while armed with a defensive handgun, we will all be very angry with you.
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