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Old March 2, 2005, 11:09 PM   #1
JimW
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CCW course---what a waste

3.5 hours of nothing. Essentially you can virtually never shoot anybody with a CCW let alone pull your weapon--for almost any reason. Inside the home I can shoot anybody I want for any reason(except in the back) and you are better off with pepper spray as a carry then a gun or you WILL end up in jail. Oh yeah, and you can't carry here and you can't carry there! :barf:
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Old March 2, 2005, 11:11 PM   #2
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I take it this means your effort to impress the instructor failed.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163946

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Old March 2, 2005, 11:32 PM   #3
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LOL, there was nothing to impress. Not at all what I expected. The only good thing was shooting at the end!
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Old March 2, 2005, 11:36 PM   #4
ODD1
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The question is did you get your permit for CCW?

If so, then it certainly was not a waste.
The was the purpose, it was not a Rambo-James Bond School.

What state did you take the course in?
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Old March 2, 2005, 11:38 PM   #5
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1. Yes I did
2. I don't see how anybody(literally) couldn't
3. Florida
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Old March 2, 2005, 11:39 PM   #6
WaltherP99
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Well.....What did ya expect??? It's not like they are gonna tell ya to go shoot somebody! geez!!! (sorry, I had to be a wisea**, it's all in fun)
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Old March 2, 2005, 11:47 PM   #7
JimW
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Well.....What did ya expect??? It's not like they are gonna tell ya to go shoot somebody! geez!!!

Not at all, but there wasn't a scenario, other then me being cornered with a man already drawing a gun for me to shoot--let alone pull. In the house---no problem. Honestly, I don't know how I'm going to avoid putting a gun in the car since half the places I go don't allow firearms.
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Old March 2, 2005, 11:48 PM   #8
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We even covered the pizza parlor incident and similar. Doesn't matter how big the guy or guys are, I can't even pull my gun et alone shoot him even after being struck?!
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Old March 3, 2005, 12:01 AM   #9
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One of the best parts of our CCW course is when the DA discusses when he considers lethal force to be justified. He explains if you feel differently, you are free to argue your points with him in court.

Don't expect any instructor to tell you when you can employ lethal force. Nobody is going to be held accountable for that except you. If you cannot make that decision for yourself, consider not carrying until you can. You SHOULD make that decision for yourself, because you will live, die, or be imprisioned by it. There are no book answers.
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Old March 3, 2005, 12:22 AM   #10
JimW
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One of the best parts of our CCW course is when the DA discusses when he considers lethal force to be justified




He had 1 example and even then it wasn't definite. Just strange stuff. It's OK to run him over with a car but not shoot him. If a huge guy approaches you and verbally threatens to kill you with a knife or gun, you can do nothing until after you have seen the gun drawn?! Kinda late then. If he threatens to kill you with a gun or knife and reaches into his pocket you still can't do anything until the weapon is out in the open. Crazy!
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Old March 3, 2005, 12:23 AM   #11
chris in va
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Personally I feel the basic CCW course to just be an absolute beginning for a holder. In no way should training end there. VA is the same way, they give you the basics and let you carry concealed. You may want to pick up The Florida Gun Owner's Guide if you haven't already. At first it basically just ****** me off, but now I realize how strict CCW laws are and I'm more aware of what to expect. Don't be discouraged, I felt the same way just a couple months ago with an almost identical post.

I'm taking more training here in about a week that should really help with the issue.
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Old March 3, 2005, 12:32 AM   #12
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Thanks Chris, I'll try. Basically like I said you're better off carrying pepper spray outside the home because you can use it in all the scenarios you can't with a gun. I can see it's going to be a constant hassle however when CCW and stopping in places that don't allow any firearms. Going to be alot of trips to the trunk to store my gun.
One question that I need answered from another Floridian. The instructor said you can carry a gun in the car BUT it must be in a zipper case or holster AND in a glove compartment. However, I've read numerous times(including Packing.org?)that the gun simply needs to be in the glove compartment---no holster or zipper case? Anyone know who's right?
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Old March 3, 2005, 01:19 AM   #13
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Yknow what was really ironic? He stated that 99.99% of all house entries, the BG doesn't carry a weapon and most crimes that do involve guns are outside the home----yet in the home your basically free to fire away, while outside the home(where most weapon crimes occur) you are virtually handcuffed at even drawing your weapon
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Old March 3, 2005, 01:23 AM   #14
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Jim,
Different municipalities may have different restrictions that add to the state law. Packing.org is generally pretty much on the money. If your District Attorney waffled on when he would indict and no bill, then he is hedging his bets. You might want to consider what you do where you live very carefully.

Just as a licensed driver is expected to know the laws governing the use of a motor vehicle, a licensed concealed carry gun owner is expected to know the laws governing the carry and use of his weapon. The driver's license exam is not intended to teach you the laws of the road. A CCW class is not intended to teach you the law concerning lethal force. It is intended to insure you meet the minimum requirements for carry as defined by your state. From what I understand Florida has some of the easiest requirements to meet, and the best reciprocity in the country. In fact, I almost got a Florida CCW to take advantage of that reciprocity. (No, you don't have to be a resident of Florida to get a Florida CCW.)

Best regards,
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Old March 3, 2005, 01:31 AM   #15
XavierBreath
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Quote:
If he threatens to kill you with a gun or knife and reaches into his pocket you still can't do anything until the weapon is out in the open. Crazy!
It's hard for someone to say what you should do, because it almost always becomes what THEY would do. In this instance though, I would not worry about pulling a gun. I would be seeking cover.
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Old March 3, 2005, 12:15 PM   #16
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XavierBreath is right, if you have the chance, get the hell out of danger, you cant be arrested or sued for running. My CC class was VERY good, the instructor was a past cop, so he talked about the laws, when you can shoot and when you cant. But he said the best option is to get away if you have the chance.
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Old March 3, 2005, 01:05 PM   #17
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I would have to differ with JimW on this one. I took my CC class @ the NRA HQ in Fairfax, VA. It was well worth the money.

There was classroom work on the typical stuff, gun safety etc. But they brought in a Holster expect to discuss the different types you can use, advantages and disadvantages for most of them etc.

Plus there was an Ex- FBI agent who discussed the legal ramifications of when you can draw and when you are justified in shooting someone. Fortunately here in VA unless you are the initiator of the conflict, there is no need to retreat even outside your home.

Plus you get an hour of range time with an instructor - 1 on 1. This alone was worth the money. Improved my grouping tremendously. Very happy with my CC course.

I think there is a big difference on where you take your course, what the ciriculum is, and who teaches. Next stop - intermediate and advance pistol shooting... Now the fun really begins...
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Old March 3, 2005, 01:15 PM   #18
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Old March 3, 2005, 01:27 PM   #19
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JimW, Don't worry about it. Florida is about to pass a law that takes away the "duty to retreat". Which obviously means you will not have to retreat from the threat.
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Old March 3, 2005, 02:02 PM   #20
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Might have been an anti-gunner running the class only because he's forced to by law. Did the meaning of the term "great bodily harm" come up in the class, or the phrase "reasonable fear of immediate, unavoidable great bodily harm or death?"

If not, then the instructor was wasting your time and blowing smoke up your skirt.

I'd recommend taking Massad Ayoob's "Judicious Use of Deadly Force" course - it's well worth the modest cost.

New Hampshire hasn't had a training requirement since its license statute was enacted 1923, and Washington about the same - our crime rates are lower and unjustified shootings less frequent than states which require anywhere from 1 hour to 16 hours of class.
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Old March 3, 2005, 03:50 PM   #21
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Jim

In Arkansas the basic laws are taught. As far as the firearms training, there is only a requirement to show you are aware of the safe operation of the firearm. You must show safety and basic operating procedures.
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Old March 3, 2005, 06:25 PM   #22
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I took the Florida CCW course here in PA over a month ago. It was given by and EX LEO and although he basically told us the same thing you are complaining about, it is all about whether you feel your life is in danger.

That doesn't mean you can pull your gun out because a guy your size bitch slaps you, and thats exactly how he said it. Or the same guy breaks your nose. Now if he knees you in the chest and breaks a rib? Different story, you could end up with a punctured lung and die. Now you can draw and at least hold him off, try and back off, shout obcenities at the individual, shoot ect.

Take it for what its worth, there is no same answer when envolved in a personal encounter where violence is involved.

You heard all the same stuff I did I am sure.
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Old March 3, 2005, 07:23 PM   #23
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Car carry

As far as I know you can carry in a car WITH a CCW and have the gun anywhere. If you do not have one (like me, which will change as soon as I get off my arse) in the glove box is OK. The law says something about (don't quote me on this) not readily accesable, meaning you have to perform an extra action to retrieve it.....like I said don't quote me but I always have one in my glovebox....
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Old March 3, 2005, 07:52 PM   #24
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Perhaps in FL it is OK. But in VA, as soon as you put that gun anywhere in the main compartment of your car (while includes the glove box) it is considered concealed.

It has to be the trunk. Unfortunately.

Unless you have a CC:
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Old March 3, 2005, 08:08 PM   #25
Metellus
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Va

VA does have open carry though so if you don't have a CCW just thrown your gun on the passenger seat for plain view and you're fine. if you stick it in a glove box or console then it is considered concealed so you need a CCW. Once of the reason i got a ccw... i can't remember all these dumb concealed or not laws.
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