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Old March 2, 2005, 08:18 PM   #26
bci4usa
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not to question you but i want to ask you this because you claim i was wrong.

Is it not Possible you did not no have had a bull buster that enforced the law out of respect for you while in uniform?

so you are claiming that you are;

allowed on the federal corrections grounds with a fire arm?

allowed to carry a gun on you When Bush comes too town and you have the detail to be in the same room with him?

allowed to have a weapon on in any of the federal agency buildings?
ATF,DEA,FBI, United States Marshals Service, and whatever else there is today?
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Old March 2, 2005, 08:25 PM   #27
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I've never been to a federal pen. I've been in ATF, FBI, DEA, INS offices many times. The last time President Bush came to my neck of the woods, right before the election, I was on the detail assisting the Secret Service, albeit not in the same room, but close. It's not like you think it is.
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Old March 2, 2005, 08:54 PM   #28
bci4usa
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I thouhgt if you was around bush then only one allowed to be armed was his staff.
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Old March 2, 2005, 09:42 PM   #29
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I don't know about that. I was'nt in the room with him. And quite honestly, that's about all I would say anyway. The security of the President is important enough that it would be at the least inappropriate to discuss on an internet forum.

Anyway, all I was trying to convey was that as a LEO, I've been in several federal offices in uniform and armed.
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Old March 3, 2005, 08:43 AM   #30
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As I posted in another thread moments ago, you should never solicit legal advice from a police officer.

BCI4USA - see 18 USC 930(d)(1). It only applies to on-duty carry by police officers, though - "the lawful performance of official duties..."

Likewise, there is no prohibition on on-duty law-enforcement possession of firearms in a Federal Courthouse, as paragraph 18 USC 930(e)(2) - the exemptions to that prohibition - includes by reference (d)(1).

While it's true that nobody's been able to find a test case, I'm of the position that at least here in New Hampshire, that "the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility [other than court] incident to hunting or other lawful purposes" encompasses the "lawful purpose" of self-defense.

Why do I think self-defense is a "lawful purpose" in New Hampshire?

New Hampshire Constitution, Article 2
Quote:
All men have certain natural, essential, and inherent rights - among which are, the enjoying and defending life and liberty;
New Hampshire Constitution, Article 2a
Quote:
All persons have the right to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves, their families, their property and the state.
Non-resident pistol/revolver license application:
Quote:
A license to carry a loaded handgun may be issued for PROTECTION or ALL PROPER PURPOSES.
There's also the licensing statute, RSA 159:4, establishing a mechanism for lawful concealed carry.

And there's 18 USC 922(q)(2)(B)(ii), which recognizes lawful, LEO-licensed carry of firearms as an exemption to the school zone prohibition.

So, I'm not going to concern myself with carry of my concealed firearm while picking up or dropping off mail. If I wind up being the test case, that'll be just my bad luck, but I'll win in the end.
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Old March 3, 2005, 08:49 AM   #31
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When Bush came to New Hampshire the time I was involved in event support, they established the venue as a secure area with one open entrance, bag searches, and metal detectors, and had the Derry police clear the streets of cars and people for the passage of the motorcade when he finally arrived.

It is not against the law to possess a firearm in proximity to the president, which is why they went to all trouble of leasing a private venue and hauling in metal detectors, so that they could lawfully exclude armed individuals by asserting property management authority.
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Old March 3, 2005, 03:16 PM   #32
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Finally got the answer!!!

http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-usps.html

Basically it says if the state law says yes, it is OK. This does not apply to Federal Court houses.

So for the good old Commonwealth of VA, we are good to go. Unless otherwise posted outside the PO.

JJ
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Old March 3, 2005, 03:55 PM   #33
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As for me, I live in VA. I have my CCW permit.
But...

There are plenty of non-Federal properties marked No Firearms. This includes my workplace.

Wouldn't want to get fired. Can't afford to sue.

And as for going onto Federal property with a firearm - even if I know I'm right and can prove it in court - I don't relish the idea of having my trachea laced into a reef knot by a couple of Secret Service guys who look like Agent Smith.
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Old March 3, 2005, 04:50 PM   #34
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I WAS AT THE GUN SHOP WHEN A FBI AGENT WALKED IN, HE GAVE ME A NUMBER TO GET THE CODE SECTION THAT WILL BACK ME.
HE GAVE ME A PHONE NUMBER TO GETTHE CODE SECTION 770-532-1361.

THAT NUMBER WILL GET YOU THE UNITED STATES MARSHALS
i SPOK WITH A United States marshal agent and I was told under no circumstances is any police officer allowed in any federal building or property with a weapon on. The only thing he questioned was the post office.
Marshal told me the only place a local or state cops is only allowed to carry a fire arm to the buildings officer check in, at this point an officer hands over his fire arms and they are giving a key to a locker and the officer is done and the leave they give the key back and they get their gun.
The Marshal said under no circumstance is anyone to be armed inside a federal court house or on bop property other than the approved people.
He told me when he works with the FBI, DEA, or other outside agency’s he has to check his weapon at the officer check in.
He said there is a cods section with the details of this but he did not know it off the top of his head.
He said the only way a local or state cop can bring a fire arm in to any federal building or court house s if they passed a back ground check or if the was assigned to a task force and then he said maybe but more times then not they have to check it.
He said if an officer was to bring a case file over to the FBI, USM, DEA or they just wanted to speak to an agent about anything then no way would they be allowed in with the weapon.
He said under no circumstance is a civilian allowed on federal property with a fire arm.

Now you want to challenge me on any of this pick a fight sorry I am not going to fight with you, call the USM and fight it with them, call them @ 770-532-1361.

One this I learned is that the any officer does not need a concealed carry license to carry in his work state.
He said an officer with proper ID can carry concealed any place in the US that is cool.

NOW LIKE I SAID CALL AND FIGHT THE UNITED STATES MARSHALS NOT ME

770-532-1361

Last edited by bci4usa; March 3, 2005 at 11:10 PM.
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Old March 3, 2005, 04:56 PM   #35
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I did a stint working as an armed security guard at federal buildings. Under 18 USC, carrying in a federal building is a no-go.

When I was working at the federal courthouse, local/state LE would check their firearms when they entered the building (we had lockboxes - it was kinda cool). When I worked at the general federal building, we had a "official business only" policy. The federal LE guys would carry (they used a different entrance), but that was about it.

Far be it from me to decide whether or not such a policy is a good idea, but I know we liked it in the federal courthouse because so few people could carry. Sorta gave everyone a good sense of who'd be shooting if the crapola hit the fan.

In the other federal building - I dunno. Many of the public clients served were people I'm glad weren't armed. Then again, many of the employees were people who I was glad weren't armed.
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Old March 3, 2005, 05:13 PM   #36
bci4usa
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This rule seems to change state to state and who you are.

this is off of a ploce web page that i asked this question. You can see it changes with each person and each statet

kels
Not in the federal courthouse in Wichita Ks.
Even in uniform.
No complaints, just a fact.

JediGlock19
It probably depends. If you let them know ahead of time you should be ok, unless they dont allow ANY firearms, then you might be able to secure it in a locker or something. Ive done it at the Social Security Admin building, putting it in a locker, at a corrections facility also. I went to Statue of Liberty in 2004 and I had to sign in and they put a band on me to be able to ID me as being armed. No probelms. At a post office? They dont have detectors so they never know Im armed when I go there. If they knew I was a LEO, they wouldnt care anyway.

series1811
I work in a federal building where we have a pretty steady stream of local and state LEO's coming and going. I can't even imagine asking police officers who come in to hand over their firearms.

Federal courthouses are a different ballgame for a very logical reason. US Marshals can't know everyone by sight. They need to know anyone carrying a firearm, who is not one of them, is fair game.

Same thing in lock ups and jails. It's not a question of jurisdiction, it's a question of logic and common sense to have strict controls on firearms.
Mvpel
Federal law exempts on-duty law enforcement officers from the prohibition against firearms possession at federal facilities and federal courthouses.

See 18 USC 930(d)(1) and (e)(2).


5802
Possible scenario...
So let's say I'm pi$$ed at a federal judge (or maybe an IRS agent), and decide to do him in. How can I get close to him in the Federal building? Dress up like a cop, maybe. Uniforms are easy to come by, and you can order a fake badge easily enough. Conceal my pistol in plain view. Walk in, pop him, and surrender.

Can't say I blame the USMS if they disarm local cops at the door. Most federal courthouses are in larger metro areas, so Marshals can't possibly be familiar with all local LEO's. Federal buildings usually house a lot of agencies who are not popular with some elements of the general public: ATF, IRS, DEA, Tax Court, Federal Court, and in some cases, ICE, just to name a few. Safest policy is not to allow anyone but USMS personnel to be armed in the building. It would be redundant to remind a bunch of cops about how many nutcases there are out there.

When you pi$$ off as many people as the Socialist Security Administration does, you'd be well-advised to disarm all who enter -- or to clean up your act.

Post offices? May be illegal, but it's a law most people break with impunity, and without a second thought.


car541
I have testified in federal court twice in uniform, I have kept my weapon on both occassions.

Federal building and post offices are OK. However, I would expect to be disarmed at the federal courthouse in plain clothes, I cannot articulate the basis of the expectation, but it is there nonetheless.



HunterCO
pointed out that section also states a citizen such as my self may also carry on federal property. The only exception is federal court houses or secured areas such as the secured area of an airport.

Here is a link from a NY attorney that explains carrying on federal property. He addresses post offices but it is relevent to all federal property.

http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rtc-usps.html



mvpel Re: Possible scenario...
quote:

Originally posted by 5802
Can't say I blame the USMS if they disarm local cops at the door. Most federal courthouses are in larger metro areas, so Marshals can't possibly be familiar with all local LEO's. Federal buildings usually house a lot of agencies who are not popular with some elements of the general public: ATF, IRS, DEA, Tax Court, Federal Court, and in some cases, ICE, just to name a few. Safest policy is not to allow anyone but USMS personnel to be armed in the building. It would be redundant to remind a bunch of cops about how many nutcases there are out there.

Whether they decide to disarm cops and military at the courthouse door, and how they verify credentials, is a different question than whether a cop is breaking a federal law if they don't disarm him at the door and he carries his firearm while on duty conducting official business in the courthouse. The answer to the latter question is "no."

quote:Originally posted by 5802
Post offices? May be illegal, but it's a law most people break with impunity, and without a second thought.

The thing is, I don't think it's against the law, at least in New Hampshire. I view my carry license and various state laws and Constitutional provisions as establishing self-defense as a "lawful purpose" which is exempt from the prohibition.

If I wind up having to argue with a prosecutor on that point and be the "test case," that'll be my bad luck, but I think I'd win the argument.



Falling Crow
USMS rules at our courthouse require LEOs appearing in the Federal Courthouse for any reason (testify, etc.) to secure their firearms in a provided lock box. This goes for all other federal agencies (FBI, ATF, DEA, U.S. Probation,etc.). Bottom line is the only ones carrying in a federal courthouse are U.S. Marshals.
GovtMan
quote:

Originally posted by mvpel
Whether they decide to disarm cops and military at the courthouse door, and how they verify credentials, is a different question than whether a cop is breaking a federal law if they don't disarm him at the door and he carries his firearm while on duty conducting official business in the courthouse. The answer to the latter question is "no."

The LEO might not be violating 18 USC 930, if he/she is performing an official act; however, the LEO could be held in contempt of court, if the court has promulgated its own rules prohibiting the carrying of weapons. See 18 USC 930(f).

For example, the US Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit has promulgated internal operating procedures stating, “(I) Weapons – Except for Security Personnel [meaning a US Marshal or Deputy Marshal, Court Security Officer, or a member of the Federal Protective Service Police], no person shall be admitted to or allowed to remain in the building with any object that might be employed as a weapon unless authorized in writing by the court to do so," and "(J) Enforcement - Security Personnel shall enforce these security provisions and any other provisions the court might implement. Attorneys and parties who violate these provisions are subject to, inter alia, contempt proceedings and sanctions.”
OXCOPS
I have carried in the offices of several federal LE agencies. Most of the time I was in uniform on business. We are a small enough community that partnership is understood and accepted. It's never been an issue. We have bigger things to do when I visit.

As for the federal courthouse across town, I lock my weapon up in the car before I even go in. The CSOs are good about not making a production about it, but won't let you carry.

That's OK though since the USMS has more firepower in that building than the local national guard branch. If I needed a piece, they have plenty to spare.
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Old March 3, 2005, 05:40 PM   #37
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Old March 3, 2005, 07:46 PM   #38
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feds...

Legislaters make and courts interpret the law not cops or fed agents.

therefore, i'm not sure if asking a bunch of law enforcement such as BATF, US Marshals, and/or your local LEO will get you the legal answer.

Although off topic, when I asked my local LEO about getting a concealed handgun permit he looked at me with anger in his eyes and said I had no chance of getting one but I could try. I live in Viriginia which is a shall issue state guess he was trying to convince me not to even try.

Furthermore, Fairfax County police confiscated handguns from two law abiding citizens who were open carrying at my local starbucks (in Tysons Corner for those of you around here). The citizens went to complain to the DA and dropped it since open carry is not illegal in the state of virginia and there were laws on the books to ensure no localities passed ordinances or motions that contradict sate gun laws. The police apologized. Same thing happened in Falls Church where cops tried to enforce a Falls Church ban on concealed handguns but were stopped since VA law prevents localities from passing ordinaces that contradict state gun laws.

The appropriate people to ask are lawyers and the courts. Where is the case history on this topic? it'd be great if we could actually cite cases here but I'm not a lawyer and i lost my access to westlaw years ago. I have asked several lawyers to look into the case histories of this as a favor so i'll update this when i find out.

The term federal facility does not apply to courts and prisons. So even if courts and prisons force you to remove your gun that does not mean all fed facilities force you. Also, federal facilities in juristictions where guns are illegal to begin with are out of scope for this dicussion. For example Washington, D.C. bans all handguns within city limits so of course all the federal buildings there check for handguns.

As pointed out in earlier posts the gunzone view seems to be that federal law defers to the state so as long as your state is ok with it then you are ok. But I'm not to sure about that yet. I'll confirm with a bunch of lawyers. Actaully I've already had a couple lawyers give me differing views so I don't think this is a clear cut issue.
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Old March 3, 2005, 09:49 PM   #39
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Moreover, even if you asked a lawyer it doesn't make any difference what they say. The only opinion that matters is a case tried and decided by a judge.
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Old March 4, 2005, 11:24 AM   #40
Goman
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us postal inspector

I'd go here and try to find it or ask them.
http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/welcome2.htm
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Old March 4, 2005, 05:58 PM   #41
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definately a big fat no on that one. im a postal worker and think that we should be allowed to carry if we are licensed to do so. we carry paychecks, social security checks and all kinds of valuables. i got in trouble once because someone was in our back lot and i didnt question them as to what they were doing there. if you want me to be a security guard then you need to let me carry. im paid to deliver mail, not be chief clancy wiggum.
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Old March 12, 2005, 03:57 PM   #42
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If you have an FFL you have to go into the Post Office to mail it (overnight)
to another FFL. You are carrying a concealed wepon but its unloaded and
in a sealed box and ready to be mailed.

This of course is legal if you are registered as an FFL with the Postal Service.

They dont like guns carried in but in a box its ok - because they sure do want that high dollar overnight mail postage money !!!!!!!!
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Old March 13, 2005, 12:06 AM   #43
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Anyone that wants to listen to the Gwinnett county police audio reply in regards to the capture of Brian Nichols in Gwinnett County by Gwinnett county police please log on to the Gwinnett county police page.
WWW.scangwinnett.com. Ifs a free membership but you must join to be able to listen. They will have the link up and running very shortly

They will have all of it covered. You can hear them setting up snipers and police and they evacuate the complex and then they say 10-95 subject in custody. Then the police say he confirms his name as Brian Nichols.


all inks are up and running and working fine now.

Links under judge killed, deputy killed, 5 car jacked

www.scangwinnett.com
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