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Old March 13, 2005, 01:46 AM   #1
MaNiFeSt
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Have any of you guys actually been in a gunfight?

I only ask because while reading this board i am amazed at the vast knowledge of its members. People debating over which is the best caliber weapon, what is best for CCW, what kind of ammunition to carry, the effectiveness of laser sites, etc... and i was thinking, does all this really matter? i mean honestly... if god forbid there was a situation where u had to use deadly force, do you really think you'd have time to think, "oh ****, i wish i packed my .45 instead of my .22." or "man this laser site was a waste of money."

to me it seems if anyone were in this situation, you'd be scared so ****less that it probably wouldnt matter in the slightest. I'm sure there are marines with significant experience in live fire that post here on board, but i'm talking about everyday life situations..

i've never been in a live fire situation and i pray that i never will be, but if it ever did happen, i dont think i'd have time to bitch about.."damn! i should have bought that 9mm instead of this .45cal!" The only thing that would be on my mind is drawing my gun and stoping whomever is trying to hurt me. everything else comes in a very distant dismal 2nd place.
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Old March 13, 2005, 02:40 AM   #2
9x19
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Ahh, yes, but during all these days and nights leading up to it.... you do have time to worry about it, grump about it, read about it, think about it, ask about it, and even change your mind about it!!!
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Old March 13, 2005, 02:44 AM   #3
Edison Carter
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Um... not really sure what you are getting at here.

A lot of the conversation going on here is speculative, true,
but drawing on people's experiences.

If you ever empty a 10 round magazine of .22s into an attacker....
and he succeeds in sticking a bowie knife in your belly before he
lays down quietly.... whether you "think about" stopping power at
the time, I'm quite sure you will consider the matter as you recover
from your wounds.

What may seem like self indulgent imaginings, becomes real relevent
as you read stories of others who have tried a mode of carry, a
particular caliber, or a particular approach to a threatening situation,
and have avoided a fight, won a fight, survived with pure luck, or
barely avoided being killed.

It is important to do these "mind experiments" in order to prepare
your mindset. What ever your equipment, whatever your training,
if you do not prepare your mindset, survival in a gunfight will be more
a function of your opponent's lack of skill, than anything else.

Training is both physical and mental, If you remain properly in
condition Yellow, transitioning past "OH, ****!" to "I know what to
do, here we go!" is what will make the difference between winning a fight,
losing it or a tie. When it is YOUR life a tie is not good enough.

EC
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Old March 13, 2005, 07:15 AM   #4
mete
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The first step is to take a really good combat shooting course...Jeff Cooper was asked how can you remain calm and cool when someone is shooting at you. Of course he answered that people do it all the time . But those that do are the survivors !! Those that panic are doomed . It's like driving an SUV. A local trooper said that most of the single car accidents on the interstate are SUVs. How do you flip an SUV ? you have a problem [maybe something on the road like a deer] you respond in panic by yanking the wheel hard over. That creates another problem so you react ,in panic again,by yanking the wheel hard over in the opposite direction .That will flip an SUV !!!
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Old March 13, 2005, 08:27 AM   #5
XavierBreath
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Quote:
Have any of you guys actually been in a gunfight?
I have. Do a search here, especially in the Tactics section, and it will become apparent that quite a few members here have. The real question is, does that short period of terror and the hurdles afterwards make any of us more of an "expert"? My answer to that is an emphatic no. It does not make any of us special or more knowlegable about anything except ourselves. It does not mean that we were christened with some mystic knowlege. What it means is that we survived. It does not mean that we are any more or any less likely to survive if we are in a similar position again. If anything it means we practice avoidance much more often, and for myself, it brought a belief that the shooter matters a thousand times more than the gun he uses.
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Old March 13, 2005, 08:36 AM   #6
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No, Thank God
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Old March 13, 2005, 10:45 AM   #7
rock185
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Yes, and Xavier put it exactly right. I might just add, that if it should happen to you, you might find that you don't even have time to be scared ****less.
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Old March 13, 2005, 11:45 AM   #8
Person of Interest
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Drawn three times and shot once. This was all about 30 years ago while working in high risk jobs. Having such experience doesn't make you an expert on anything other than maybe what it feels like to have your heart in your throat.
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Old March 13, 2005, 01:20 PM   #9
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I have also drawn thrice, fired once. I would not try to extrapolate from those experiences to everyone/every event.
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Old March 13, 2005, 01:55 PM   #10
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Yes, there is "luck factor" in surving an encounter of arms, but if you don't have your $hi+ together, expecially if you're engaged in more encounters, the "Luck Factor" is going to go down and you'll probably get hurt or killed. It's best to have good training and ability to give good death.
And Gentlemen, there's a lot to be said for experience, although many here who will never have it, don't belive that experience means anything. Just typical of C3s from what I've seen.

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Old March 13, 2005, 02:11 PM   #11
Ozzieman
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Thank God I have never had to pull the trigger with a gun pointed at some one, but

I have pulled a gun on some one. He had stolen my neighbors car that morning and that evening he was getting gas at a gas station less than 1/2 mile from our addition. This was a resedintal ariea and only gas station for 2 miles (which goes to show you the stupidest people in the world are crooks).
I pulled my gun out and waited for him to emerge from the store and as soon as I saw him throw somthing into the back seat and start to open the drivers door I grabed his arm and showed him the gun in the other hand, making sure he had no way to grab it.
I walked him to the door of the store and made him lie down and asked the owner to call the poliece.
The thing that I noticed was that as soon as he saw the gun he all but pooped his pants and gave up without a fight. You cant count on that if the other person has a gun, lets face it they are stupid and will do stupid things, it there criminals they already prooved there stupid.
I see it this way, If I have the cause, the reasion and the personal obligation to pull a gun on some one, be it to protect myself or a love one or an innocent bystander I MUST do it being ready to take another life. I hope that never happens but since one in 4 people are robbed in some way in this world the chances are good it will happen.
Was I ready to take another life that night, no I was not!
Would I had he threatend my life, I dont know.
Would I had he threatend another life, I hope to God I would.
But in this case having a gun ended the confrentation.
But if you are carring and you say that you cannot take a life if yours was in danger, then you better leave it at home, becouse some bad guy will take it from you and kill you with it. You would be safer without it than with it.
But to end this if your sure in your mind that you could take another life, and feel like a machoman walking around with a gun on your hip, then do us all a favor and leave the gun at home becouse the rest of us would be safer with out you on the street.
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Old March 13, 2005, 02:16 PM   #12
yekimak
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drawn twice..never fired(Once was shucking a pump shotgun in a campgroundwhen some miscreants were trying to steal a neighbor's 4 wheeler). Truthfully I think the best piece of self defense learnin' I got was when I was taught Jeff Cooper's (?) color scale of awareness, since then I have been more aware of my surroundings and have not found myself in bad situations.

I do not want to have the burden of knowing I killed someone on my conscience, but I do not want to have the burden of me or a family member being hurt/killed even less.
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Old March 13, 2005, 02:34 PM   #13
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Chuck Taylor

I was able to attend 4 of Chuck Taylor's Small Arms Academy classes. Let me tell you something: Education from someone who has been there and done it a few times helps get a classes attention. Chuck spent a good number of heated moments in Vietnam. He learned a lot there and added it to present day knowledge and ability. Chuck served two tours in NAM as an Airborne Ranger. He serves an important part of training military, LEO's and civilian sectors. If you want a rewarding and educational class filled with great ideas and self-emprovement give his academy a try. I am very glad I did and plan to attend again someday soon. You can read about him at:www.chucktaylorasaa.com

best of luck....

ps...... I never had to result in ending an attackers life.....the sight of me being ready and willing seemed to work to my advantage. Thank God and with his good grace that will remain unchanged....
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Old March 13, 2005, 02:35 PM   #14
Jungle Work
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Example of the RUN OUTA LUCK FACTOR for some usually highly trained and experienced folks.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor..._re_mi_ea/iraq
at the bottom of the article....

Rojo,
the last time I saw chuck taylor was at a MP-5 school at a IALEFI Conference, I've know him since Vietnam and there's lots of opinions out there of chuck. I'm impressed how he names things after himself.

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Old March 13, 2005, 02:41 PM   #15
Bullrock
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MaNiFeSt

You're not alone! I have wondered about that many times.

In spite of what some say, speculation is not reality. It may be fun to speculate, but that's all it is. I don't share my experiences in those areas with anyone here, because they probably won't be duplicated and stuff like that sounds like allot of chest banging, and turns folks off.

Most of my guns are 9mm. I still have a couple of my .357 wheelguns, but only carry them in the woods. I've used everything down from a .44 Mag and I have thought about buying a .45...one of these days, maybe.

When I was young shootin wasn't any fun unless the recoil blew your arm over your head.

In the meantime, I don't lose any sleep about my carry, or my longevity.
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Old March 13, 2005, 04:26 PM   #16
Jeff OTMG
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Yes, twice, but apparently the other guys didn't know it was a gunfight and violated rule number 1.

1. In a gunfight, have a gun.

as a result, fortunately, no shots fired.
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Old March 13, 2005, 05:47 PM   #17
Moe Mentum
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Does the jungles of Southeast Asia count ? If so, then yes.
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Old March 13, 2005, 06:43 PM   #18
Angelsboy
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Maybe.
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Old March 13, 2005, 07:58 PM   #19
chris in va
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Quote:
I pulled my gun out and waited for him to emerge from the store and as soon as I saw him throw somthing into the back seat and start to open the drivers door I grabed his arm and showed him the gun in the other hand, making sure he had no way to grab it.
You can do that in Indiana?
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Old March 13, 2005, 08:56 PM   #20
rkc
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last count I have been in a half dozen, having enjoyed an active life. A couple cant count as gunfights as the adversary was armed with a knife and an impact weapon.
Real life fights are won by pretty ordinary weapons. body positioning and marksmanship win fights and gear that always works. The .45 isnt a little better than the .38 and 9mm but about four times better. The .357 Magnum produces gruesome results. (from seeing lots of after action stuff in 23 years of police work)
standard gear, cool head, good tactics and marksmanship.
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Old March 14, 2005, 10:29 AM   #21
smokinron
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Since I started reading this forum a couple of months ago I have done a lot of thinking about the posibility of having to defend ones self in a situation. I have always supported CCW and keep myself armed as far as the law in KS will allow, but last Friday night I got a real good insight to this ...
I got a call @2345 from the local PD that my alarm had gone off at my restaurant. I went out to find that the perps ahd entered my walk in freezer. Nothing was missing thank god, but I ended up having to gaurd the place all night since I couldnt secure the damaged door. I positioned myself in my truck about 50 yards away from the freezer in a dark area, hoping to surprise the perps if they came back.At about 0330 a vehicle entered the parking lot. and guys I'll tell you what, you would have had to use a tractor to get a pin out of my a$$ at that point! It turned out to be the PD, but I had my Kimber 45 in hand and my Winchester 1200 (The terminator )beside me. The thought of actually having to use them was a sobering experience to say the least. Our local cops are pretty supportive of CCW so for that I'm thankful. In fact when the officer told me he wanted to clear the building, I think he was thankful for my backup.
I know this is long, but It made me think....
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Old March 14, 2005, 03:44 PM   #22
Hard Ball
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It depends on gow you define "gun fight,"
If you mean using a handgun then I have been in two gunfights in which I had to draw and use a pistoll
If you include using shoulder arms in close combat then I have been in a great many more.
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Old March 14, 2005, 03:54 PM   #23
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Nope. As for wealth of knowledge, what I've determined is that there are three things that will govern how well you do in a fight.

1. Your amount and type of luck.
2. Your level and quality of training (which will you will revert to when your brain shuts down)
3. How your answers to 1 and 2 compare to the bad guy's answers to 1 and 2.
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Old March 14, 2005, 04:14 PM   #24
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If the first gulf war and somila counts then yes in policing once hope never make it twice but I train hard so I WILL go home to the wife.....

Dave
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Old March 14, 2005, 05:59 PM   #25
Para Bellum
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practice so that you don't fight your gun

my "experience" is even less than Jeff OTMG's
Quote:
Yes, twice, but apparently the other guys didn't know it was a gunfight and violated rule number 1.
1. In a gunfight, have a gun.
as a result, fortunately, no shots fired.
I drew. I fired. But the bad guys were a bunch of dogs way beyond control (no gunfight then). And I decided to shoot the earth I was walking on right by my side. That was enough for five dogs (2 big, 3 normal) to go and turn 180° while running.

What I have learned from this is that things go rather cool and somewhat automatic. I had no time to be scared. I just assessed the situation and the earth underneath me as a safe backstop - while I drew my gun and hid it at my side. Then I drew a virtual line for the dogs not to cross. As they crossed it - I fired. Problem solved, nobody hurt. And then I got scared. My body got stiff as I walked away. I felt my head to be crystal clear and actually felt some cold sensation.

Until I fired and the dogs ran I felt in control of my senses and motions. The handling of the gun went automatically and flawlessly. I was amazed that I didn't feel any trigger resistance as I decided to fire and so did. I am still surprised by how rational it all went. I assume if I had been as scared when the dogs approached, as I was after I shot, I would have shot the dogs.

The bottom line could be: If you practice regularily with your gun, you have more resources to use for assessing the situation and reacting. Otherwise you could find yourself fighting your gun.
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