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Old March 2, 2005, 08:34 AM   #51
Joe Demko
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One more time: Having something doesn't automatically make you competent in its use.

One more time: Do whatever you think is best.

I'm very strongly starting to suspect that some of you aren't out of your teens.
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Old March 2, 2005, 09:20 AM   #52
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Maybe I'm strange but a plan and no gun is often better than a gun and no plan.

Better to have a gun and a plan - hopefully a plan you can rehearse.

Also give strong consideration to the idea that a gun does not make you bulletproof. If someone is in the area operating a weapon of any sort, it doesn't matter if you're carrying a rifle or a pistol - you can be shot.

My other consideration is that if you're caught in public in the middle of a shooting, it's likely that you won't have time to go back to your truck and pick up the rifle. You will have to deal with the situation with what you have on you.

Something else to consider. As much as we might like to dream about being the hero of the day, just imagine what the police response might be when they show up on the scene (having been called to an active shooter) and see you there with your weapon. At the very least they're going to lace your trachea into a reef knot - at the worst, you're going to look like a target backstop after they run out of ammunition.
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Old March 2, 2005, 01:37 PM   #53
Joe Demko
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Better to have a gun and a plan - hopefully a plan you can rehearse.
Quite so.
Quote:
Also give strong consideration to the idea that a gun does not make you bulletproof.
This cannot be overemphasized.
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Old March 2, 2005, 01:40 PM   #54
InToItTRX
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Well if someone broke into my house and my Glock 21 which is my home defense gun did not do the job I would probably move to my H&K Shotgun.

Outside my home, if my Beretta 8040 which is my carry weapon did not do the job, I am soon adding an FN 57 to my collection, so that should be able to stop them.
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Old March 2, 2005, 03:50 PM   #55
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More likely than not, if your current gun doesn't do the job, you're not going to be in a position to transition to another weapon unless you happen to be wearing it.

My wife and I practice reload drills at the range - but we alternate. I call out "Loading!" and she slows her pace of firing while I reload. That's a small part of the plan - we're not going to both run dry at the same time.

Cover - Concealment - Possible Routes of Escape - Fire While Moving - Partner Covers Your Reload

Well, you get the picture.
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Old March 2, 2005, 08:18 PM   #56
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I actually have more rifle training in urban settings than I do with a handgun, but it is hard to conceal a long gun.

A plan you can practice is great. But as no two situations are the same, the basics (cover, sight picture, trigger squeeze, follow-through) will carry one through, whether an AK-toting looney, car jacking, mugging, wild dog in the yard, etc.
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Old March 2, 2005, 08:57 PM   #57
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the basics (cover, sight picture, trigger squeeze, follow-through) will carry one through, whether an AK-toting looney, car jacking, mugging, wild dog in the yard, etc.
That is, to some exent, true. I still find the idea of loading the car with a rifle/dot-sight .44 mag/.22lr pistol/et. al. specifically with the idea of gunning down an AK-Looney to be something that doesn't just cross the border into macho fantasizing. It crosses the border, brings its relatives with it, sires children here, and sends money back home to la-la land.
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Old March 2, 2005, 09:43 PM   #58
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Mark Wilson was a brave man, but what he did was foolish, in my oppinion.
Bravery is doing what you think is right in spite of the danger or outcome.

Foolishness is not considering the situation before acting.

Unless you know what Mr. Wilson was thinking you can not say whether he was foolish or not. He was experienced enough that he may have fully realized the likely outcome and acted anyway because of his personal convictions.

Pointing out tactical flaws is one thing, but one must remember that there's more to some situations than merely surviving. To take the tack that anyone who goes into a low survival probability situation is foolish really shortchanges the human spirit.

Many people judge others by what they would do themselves, and if they realize that it's not within themselves to do what someone else did out of bravery, they assume that it was done out of foolishness or insanity.

Last edited by JohnKSa; March 2, 2005 at 11:10 PM.
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Old March 3, 2005, 12:27 AM   #59
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".......... I wouldn't carry a trunk full of firearms or any weapon with the notion that I'm going to jump out and engage a bad guy, save the day, and be a hero. I'll be the first one to admit that I'm not at all confident in my level of training for such a scenario and I could actually end up making matters worse by doing so. I may shoot an innocent bystander, get killed by the BG, ......"

Reminds me of a line, ".....A man should recognize his limitations..."

"Many people judge others by what they would do themselves, and if they realize that it's not within themselves to do what someone else did out of bravery, they assume that it was done out of foolishness or insanity."

Good point.

I think "hardware" in this situation does matter. MAYBE the 357 Sig will RELIABLY penetrate body armor, and maybe not. It's velocity/bullet weight isn't all that much different than the 357 mag, and with a 6" barrel I think 357 mag is slightly ahead. The point of that is, IF the 357 Sig will penetrate some soft armor, it may not be reliable in doing so as it is so close to the performance of similar rounds that do not. A rifle caliber round will reliably penetrate soft armor. The exception is possibly the 30-30. Cooper cited an instance of a good guy with armor being hit with a 30-30, it didn't penetrate, but he was out of the action at that point.

Yes, this sort of thing is very rare in the greater scheme of things, BUT, it's happened a couple times now that we know of. Any ordinary deer rifle can put a stop to it. Something else to consider, if the cavalry ARE on the scene, they may appreciate SOMEONE having a rifle for them (LEO's)to use on said BG. Around here the good guys are fairly well equiped. If one has a cell phone on them you can call in and advise them of your description and good guy status, or willingness to loan the rifle.

Some of us consider it normal to have rifle in the truck all the time. I've carried a rifle (and pistol)in my vehicle for almost 25 years. I've hunted a bunch of small game (running) with pistol and rifle, some out to ridicules ranges, and a few deer, antelope, coyotes and elk, I think I've got a handle on them both.

For those with reservations as to anyone elses abilities, qualifications, or motivations, thanks for your concern.
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Old March 3, 2005, 02:49 AM   #60
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Look, I think it boils down to this: If you have a cheap and relible long gun and you can store it indefinitely in your vehicle, do so! You may need it, who knows?
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Old March 3, 2005, 09:54 AM   #61
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"Look, I think it boils down to this: If you have a cheap and relible long gun and you can store it indefinitely in your vehicle, do so! You may need it, who knows?"

Well said and to the point.
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Old March 3, 2005, 03:27 PM   #62
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According to reports, Mark Wilson and the aggressor exchanged gunfire before Wilson was shot and killed.

Does anyone know if he ran dry, if that's why he ultimately lost? I heard he was using a 1911 - if so, this incident might make a good case for the 9mm. I druther have 15 9mm than 7-8 .45's in an ugly situation like that...
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Old March 3, 2005, 08:04 PM   #63
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This may have been mentioned already, but to paraphrase the words of Clint Smith, Jeff Cooper, et.al:

"We carry a handgun because it is portable and concealable. We carry handguns in order to fight our way back to a rifle, shotgun, etc."

ALL handgun rounds have failed at one time or another. And while rifle and shotgun rounds are not 100%, they are much more reliable stoppers than any handgun round.
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Old March 3, 2005, 08:05 PM   #64
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I take it from your "IF" and "MAYBE" that you do not believe that I indeed did see the .357 Sig pass through a Kevlar vest, the same vest that was later shot by and stopped the .357 Mag., 9mm. 45, and a .40. Sorry. I don't know what to tell you but YES I SAW IT AND YES IT DID. The .357 Mag. was a four-inch Smith, not a six inch. The Sig was shot in a Sig, I don't remember if it was a 229 or a 226, but I think a 226. How reliably will it pass through a Kevlar vest? I don't know, I don't think they wanted to waste a bunch of money to pull a statistically valid sample.

I am not sure how many shots Mr. Wilson fired. I have heard anywhere from 3 to 7. I expect we will find out within the next couple of days, if they release the report then. Either way, it will be an interesting case study.
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Old March 4, 2005, 11:44 AM   #65
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My apologies, I didn't intend to imply I didn't believe you saw it happen, only that the preformance is so close to a 357 mag, that was stopped, that I would not want to rely on it to reliably penetrate. I wouldn't go buy a 357 Sig on that small margin of difference and feel I would be able to reliably defeat a BG's soft body armor. Rifle rounds are simply more reliable in defeating armor.
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Old March 4, 2005, 04:01 PM   #66
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Wow. What a lot of responses.

If you want to carry a rifle in your trunk, more power to you. But you'd better think even harder before you pull a rifle than a handgun.

i.e. Tyler Texas ... once that guy opened up there were calls going out to every cop car in the city about a "man with a rifle" firing at civilians.

A police cruiser pulls up as you rush into action with your AR-15. The cop doesn't know you, so he drops you with his .40. He's not going to spend much time investigating because he's charged on adrenalin and maybe he knows at least one officer is down.

This is doubly bad, because not only did you go and get yourself killed but you distracted a LEO that might have taken down the bad guy.

For us civilians who may be in a situation swarming with LEO's who aren't aware of all the players, weapons are best used strictly for close in self defense. Out in the country, of course, the rules change.

I can only remember one other case where body armor was involved, and that was the California one, and in that one the police were constantly engaged so there was no option for someone with a high powered rifle -- except to hand it over to a cop.
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Old March 5, 2005, 02:11 PM   #67
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Here are some comments from John Farnham, DTI, that seem to fit with this thread:

"Tom Givens used details from the 1986 FBI shooting in FL to drive home several important tactical and philosophical points:

'Don't go looking for someone, not expecting to find him." In other words, be careful what you wish for. A number of agents involved in this incident were woefully unprepared, because they really didn't think they would encounter bad guys that day. When the shooting started, there was no time to 'get ready.'

'During a lethal encounter, you're going to lose a percentage of your skills. If your skills are poor to begin with, you may lose most of them. If you are extremely skilled, when you lose some, there will still be plenty left! Being 'excessively skillful' thus has real advantages!'

'Keep fighting, in spite of injuries. These days, most of what is wrong with you can be fixed. So long as you keep moving, stay in the fight, and remain conscious, you'll probably be fine. That is why we have doctors and ERs. If, while the fight is still on, you pause to think about your injuries instead of your business, momentum is lost, along with whatever tactical advantage your may have had!'

'You're on your own! You will have to fight without help, and you'll have to fight with only what you have on you or with you. Many die wishing they had been better prepared!'


Friend, Dr Larry Pyzik, talked to us about terminal effect of handgun bullets. Excellent revue of human anatomy, from the side and back as well as the front. Larry reminded us all that shooting along the body midline needs to include the neck, right up to the chin. Many of us, he said, mistakenly stop zippering upwards when we reach the center of the chest.

Head shots with a pistol are much less likely to be effective than are neck shots. He agreed with Tom and most of the rest of us that pistol bullets need to both expand AND penetrate adequately, but that all are marginally adequate and none can realistically be expected to stop a fight any where near instantly."

John Farnham
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Old March 5, 2005, 03:27 PM   #68
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Just put a Marlin 94 44 mag in the truck. Had a 35rem. Both are "beater rifles", but very accurate to 100yds. I'm out in the country, small town, can't expect police to show up in a few minutes. I'd hand my rifle to an officer if he needed it no problem.
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Old March 5, 2005, 05:32 PM   #69
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A half-dozen hand grenades.
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Old March 5, 2005, 06:12 PM   #70
smince
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We live in a small town, also. Two full-time, two part-time officers. Granted, said events are unlikely to happen here, but I work in a larger town, and contested divorces, psycho's and semi-auto's aren't just for the big city.
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Old March 8, 2005, 10:45 PM   #71
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I think the most immediate and important question this raises is, does this incident, or does it not, cause you to *change* the way you train for violent gun-wielding BGs, by going for the head shot(s) FIRST, rather than COM (2) followed by head (1) or some similar technique? Yes or no? (or do you train at all with humn silhouette targets?). A case could be made that perhaps training for aiming for the BG's head only, until slide lock or sack of potatoes effect, whichever comes first, in this day and age, is the better way to go. Wasting your time on 2 shots COM that are ineffective is plenty enough time to get you killed by a rifle-wielding madman. I believe the answer for ME is yes, it does (will) change the way I train. I think maybe a 6 shot routine is in order, 2 head, 2 COM, 2 pelvis. 4 of those 6 will hit where SBA doesn't go (normally - though I think some SBA does go down to the crotch). It's straight down from the top, 2, 2, 2. If no sack of potatoes, then lather, rinse, repeat. And yes, I'm liking 9x19 more as well! Glad I just settled on a CZ 75D compact PCR as my new carry gun.

I like the idea of honoring Mr. Wilson's actions with financial support for his family. Anyone know if he had a wife and kids? But I have to say, if he LIVED there across the street, he sure should've grabbed a RIFLE instead of a pistol.
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Old March 18, 2005, 02:00 AM   #72
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^^^

But did he have one? Did he have time to think about it if he had?

Or what if he did have a rifle, but it was locked up somewhere where it didn't make for quick access?

Too many questions unanswered to speculate on them.
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Old February 27, 2007, 11:29 AM   #73
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If you ever engage a perp holding a long gun with your hand gun, . . . first off you are being rather ignorant, . . . and second off, . . . you better be going for slide lock and reaching for a second magazine while you do it. Bg has every advantage possible except maybe for your first surprize shot. Bad idea.
Give the guy a break... He took on someone in body armor with a pistol.

In Minnesota we had a Sargent take out a bank robber with a Mini-14. Did he use a rifle? No, off the hood of his trunk he used a .45 to the head. A single shot.

What if this guy only had a knife, and he was able to wound the perpetrator? Does that make him ignorant too? If anyone is ignorant, it's Brendan McKown who "ordered Maldonado to put down his gun" instead of just shooting.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/ccw/tacoma_tyler.htm
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Old February 27, 2007, 01:24 PM   #74
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When the LA shootout happened, I said "that could never happen in the south." I figured that some redneck (like me) would drive up with is '06 in the gun rack of his truck and the fight would be over.

I stand (sadly) corrected. It looks like the threat of criminal activity and potential prosecution of the lawful gun owner has kept people from carrying the longarms that could have stopped or discouraged this attack in the first place.
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Old February 27, 2007, 03:35 PM   #75
gyrfalcon16
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http://www.yourdailymedia.com/media/...he_Court_House

If anyone is interested...here is a good video of the perpetrator getting taken down.
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