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Old March 1, 2005, 01:46 PM   #26
Duxman
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Welcome to America Golog, where we have choices. (Well said Too Many Choices...)

The choice to be prepared, or to be sorry.

If you look at situations most likely to happen. Why carry a gun at all? The chances of random crime occuring is really next to zero. Especially if you live in a nice safe neighborhood. (And are not a gang, mobster or witness to a crime pending trial....) Leave that heavy piece of steel @ home.

For those of us, who decide to be prepared, whether its chemical mace, 9mm automatic, or a 44 mag backup, we are also free to do so.

Just remember, extraploating murphy's law, I'd rather be slightly inconvienced by being prepared and never using my equipment, rather than be someone who decided, its not worth the extra effort and be caught in North Hollywood or Tyler, TX and cursing because I decided to be "lazy".

When did Noah build the "ark"..........before the rain, way before the rain.


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Old March 1, 2005, 01:58 PM   #27
Joe Demko
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You're free to do whatever you want. You can outfit yourself in a full-blown Jethro Bodine Double-Naught Spy oufit, if it tickles you. That doesn't equate to it being wise or genuinely prepared
You will most likely perform in a crisis as you trained to perform. If you didn't train, then all you have is a fantasy about how you would like to perform. I do not have unlimited training time or budget, therefore I concentrate my trigger time on encounters that I am more likely to have. I am more likely to be the target of a mugging or a carjacking than the random victim of a kevlar-clad whackjob with an AK. I will prepare and train accordingly.
I will do what I think best, you do whatever you think is best.
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Last edited by Golgo-13; March 1, 2005 at 04:49 PM.
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Old March 1, 2005, 02:06 PM   #28
too many choices!?
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Golgo-13 point taken.....

But having A SINGLE back-up weapon is nothing more than prudent planing IMHO......So taken in the context that you said it, I agree. You do not need a "golf bag" or "trunk" full of different arms for different scenarios.....You need two maybe three ! A side arm to carry here and there( and maybe a back up if it makes you feel better), and a close quarters arm with rifle ballistics or atleast a little more punch for upto 150 yds, no further should be needed(armor penetration is a plus in this aspect of a back up). Agiain this is just my opinion and subject to change without prior notification......
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Old March 1, 2005, 02:13 PM   #29
Joe Demko
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Quote:
But having A SINGLE back-up weapon is nothing more than prudent planing IMHO
I agree. Provided you train with it so that you can use it competently should the requirement arise.
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Old March 1, 2005, 02:59 PM   #30
too many choices!?
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Golgo....Thats why I chose the ar-15 pistol as I already own an m4gery

I could so see this "golf bag o guns" in action.....

Shooter...."So Caddy, what's the range look like to the b/g that needs
perforating?
Caddy...... *looks through scope*"Well it would seem to be 200 or so yds.
with wind out of the north at 10-15mph. Easy shot....wait a sec..
B/g has lotsa body armor and cover, I suggest the H&K G3.....
Shooter......"Yeah, you would......Cover and body armor be damned!!!! Reach
down into my bag get my M4 and that .50 cal beouwolf upper over
there!!!!!!!!!

Right tool for the right job but when the fecal matter hits the air moving rotary bladed device, you have got to play the game with the piece you have
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Old March 1, 2005, 03:19 PM   #31
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Training is the key to success.

That is why our Army and Special Forces are the best in the world. They train very hard!!!

Practicing my head shots @ the range now. Will probably get into some intermediate and advanced shooting courses to sharpen up the skills.

Hope I never have to use them.....
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Old March 1, 2005, 04:34 PM   #32
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Quote:
When did Noah build the "ark"..........before the rain, way before the rain.
I'm going to use that in my next " Why do you carry" debate
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Old March 1, 2005, 04:52 PM   #33
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Feel free.

By the way I stole that quote from Robert Redford in Spy Game. Excellent flick if you have not seen it.
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Old March 1, 2005, 05:21 PM   #34
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Monday morning quarterbacking at it's finest. The anti's are salivating over this one! I'm gonna have to go with Golgo-13 here. I wouldn't carry a trunk full of firearms or any weapon with the notion that I'm going to jump out and engage a bad guy, save the day, and be a hero. I'll be the first one to admit that I'm not at all confident in my level of training for such a scenario and I could actually end up making matters worse by doing so. I may shoot an innocent bystander, get killed by the BG, or get killed by the police since they would have no way of differentiating me from the bad guy. If I were absolutly forced to act, it would have to be right up close and personal.
We should leave the handling of such scenarios to trained LEO's. The odds of us being involved in such a scenario are probably greater than being eaten by a shark or struck by lightning. When the SHTF and you are forced to act, then by all means do so. I just think the notion of being "gung ho" civilian with an arsenal of weapons is irresponsible, reckless, and could cost an innocent person thier life. I'm a staunch supporter of the second amendment rights, so don't label me as anything but. We need to think reasonably and act responsibly.
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Old March 1, 2005, 05:43 PM   #35
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A different perspective . . .

Mark Wilson is a hero because he sacrificed his life to save someone else. His gun didn't make him a hero, and certainly his tactics didn't make him one. His love for his fellow man makes him a hero, and then having the courage to act on that conviction, despite the odds being stacked against him.

Likewise the LEOs who engaged and were hit or retreated tried to do what they could out of a sense of duty or similar feelings to Mark Wilson's. They are heroes. I would want them around me in a tough situation, even though they were not immediately effective, except perhaps in driving him off from the square.

It is too easy to be an armchair quarterback for this situation, especially since I have yet to hear what actually happened (if anyone competent really knows).

However, there is no harm done in trying to project ourselves into a similar situation to be better prepared.

I have yet to hear authoritatively what handgun Mark Wilson used. I have heard a 1911 pattern .45 on various 'net boards, a 9MM Glock according to news reports, and a .40 of some kind.

I don't think the gun failed him; I think his tactics did. From the video and other accounts, when Mark opened up on Arroyo, Arroyo shot back and walked toward Mark, who either was hit, was hiding or perhaps reloading. Arroyo was able to shoot him dead at close range. At some point before that, hopefully Mark could have realized his shooting was not effective at the distance between the two. That's when different tactics would come into play, assuming he was not critically injured already. This is especially true with Arroyo advancing toward him. Ambush. Lead him away. Shoot somewhere else on the body--at close range, etc.

I don't know that I would have the presence of mind to do this. Mark's heart was certainly in the right place. Even the cops who rushed out the doors and were either hit or dove back inside lacked tactics, especially coordinated ones with other defenders, but I wasn't there and I doubt I could have done much better in this situation.

Would-uv, could-uv, should-uv--whatever. Thanks Mark and LEOs for setting the example for all of us. Let's learn from that first.

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Old March 1, 2005, 05:49 PM   #36
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Carrying a rifle in the vehicle is just good sense. You never know how it could come in handy, and it's a lot more PC (and legal in most parts) than a handgun. The AR pistol is a neat idea, but why not the rifle? It's in the trunk, not under your coat...

.44mag, 7.62X25, .357sig, etc., do NOT penetrate quality body armor. Choose a RIFLE: 5.56NATO, 7.62X39, 7.62NATO, 30-30, 30-06, etc... I've faced the threat of body armor clad bad guys, those who have shot at the police and arm themselves with full-auto AKs. I was GLAD I had my AR with me on patrol that day, and not just my duty pistol.
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Old March 1, 2005, 06:15 PM   #37
itgoesboom
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Jwise,

Lots of people have talked recently and in the past about carrying a rifle for dealing with such a situation.

But assuming you end up in such a situation, how are the police going to know that you are a good guy and not the bad guy?

I started another thread about this very topic the other day.

I.G.B.
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Old March 1, 2005, 06:41 PM   #38
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Quote:
When did Noah build the "ark"..........before the rain, way before the rain.
Right. And I didn't just start carrying all my "extra baggage" last week after the Wilson murder. I've been doing this for about 20 years. That's one good reason for an SUV or truck: more room. Plus I like to try to have the right tool for the job.

Golgo-13: You keep pushing training, and that is a good thing. However I get the feeling you don't think anyone on this forum might be trained well enough to carry a back-up rifle. Are they? I honestly don't know about everyone, but I would guess some are and some aren't. I'll hedge my bet on my life, and that of my family, on a long gun in the back.

Quote:
Practicing my head shots @ the range now. Will probably get into some intermediate and advanced shooting courses to sharpen up the skills.
That's good. But a moving head is still a difficult target. I'm going to start practicing more "crotch shots".
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Old March 1, 2005, 06:43 PM   #39
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Rifle in vehicle

How about this to complement your Glock or 1911? I have shot a friend's and they will extend your range and accuracy, and hit a little harder, especially if you have some hotter ammo loaded for it. Not too much worry about having it stolen and misused--it's not a gun.

http://www.concealco.com/miva/mercha...ry_Code=15-CCU

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Old March 1, 2005, 06:51 PM   #40
Joe Demko
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I'll hedge my bet on my life, and that of my family, on a long gun in the back.
Do as thou wilt. I still submit that the long gun "in the back" is less than a magic sword. By the time you rummage it out and bring it into play, might you not have also unassed the scene? How much good are you to your family after our kevlar-wrapped ak-whackjob shot you while you were unlocking the trunk?
I'm not against back-up weapons by any means. Hedging bets = good. Macho fantasies = bad.
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Old March 1, 2005, 07:27 PM   #41
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CB3: Had a CCU since 2001. I love mine. 1911 and .45ACP were the only flavors when I got mine. I recently added an M4 4 position stock after the AWB expired. Hope to post pics soon.

Golgo-13: Macho fantasies, perhaps. Here in Alabama, most rural area vehicles have long guns in them, especially during hunting season. It's not unusual to see here. I've been around enough to know that you don't have to seek trouble, it finds you just fine. And sometimes flight is not possible. What then?

What about my family? Hopefully, my wife will be laying down cover fire with her Colt while I'm digging out my long gun. Messing with her family is like taking a cub from a mama bear.

But hey, you win. Your right and the rest of us are wrong. End of Debate.
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Old March 1, 2005, 10:36 PM   #42
too many choices!?
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Some of you guys are delusional and some are prudent.....where do you stand?

Golgo-13....Who among us ever said that possessing a rifle in this situation would make you King Arthur and you weapon Excaliber ? "Magic Sword" comments aside, I do believe that a rifle is more capable of defeating body armor than a handgun; so in that sense, it WOULD be akin to " a magic sword" !
Now I know that you are not speaking of me with some of your statements but I am offended none the less....What the @#$%@#$%@#$%@ makes you think any of us are stupid enough to open the trunk to retrieve "Excaliber" as we are being fired on or aimed at :barf: ........That must be some really good stuff you have there.....

1Bad350.....You gotta be kidding me? If the police are there and handling the situation then itervention by outside parties(citizens) should not be required.
If cops are not EFFECTIVELY handling the situation then help MIGHT be required(out gunned).......If there is NO police presence on the scene, then you bet your sweet bippy that if I believe I can be of HELP to fellow citizens then it would be uncivil to do otherwise..... Rifle or not......
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Old March 1, 2005, 10:59 PM   #43
too many choices!?
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Before I concealed carried, I have had to intervene on more than one occasion....

When police were no where to be seen(through no fault of their own: a call was not placed till after the fact and they aren't everywhere)....I had to stop a man from trying to abduct his ex-wife in front of his daughter ! No firearm and no weapon.....No knowlege of if the perp was armed or dangerous other than the fact that he had broken into his ex's window to take her ! I did not let him take her and their was no physical violence thankfully.....My imposing 140lbs and 5' 6" of fury must have intimadated the hell outta him as he left without his prize. Point is I did it on instinct and now looking back I would have gone armed(butter knife is better than nothing) with something and that is the only change I would have made .

PS My downstairs female neighbor had grabbed the child during all this nonsense and taken her inside....For any that have read some of my posts this took place it the same apartment complex that housed the little nazi land lady Odd thing is the guy seemed to have peddled there on a bike and I guess he was gonna "pump" her on the handle bars to get away
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Old March 1, 2005, 11:22 PM   #44
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My choice...

Mark Wilson was a brave man, but what he did was foolish, in my oppinion. Given the circumstances, the moment I saw that man I would have probably run, and called the cops...

If I was 21 and in the area at that time, and armed, I would react differently. I plan on carrying a full lenght M1911 .45, but as noble as that round is, I dont think it would hold up well v.s body armor.

That, however, would be what the HK91 in my car would be for.
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Old March 1, 2005, 11:31 PM   #45
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.357 Sig will penetrate a bullet proof vest made of Kevlar. Now it didn't have a trauma plate in it, but the Kevlar itself. I have seen it done, on a range, the exact indoor range formerly know as"On-Target" that was owned by Mr. Mark Wilson, but now is called "Lock-N-Load". The test was performed on the Kevlar not long after the .357 Sig came out, and it was administered by a former DEA Agent/DEA Firearms Instructor. The Kevlar stopped .45, 9mm, and .357 Mag., but not the .357 Sig. Believe it or not, but I saw it with my own eyes.

As for what he carried that day, Mark Wilson was carrying a 1911 .45, I saw it. It was not a Glock, nor a .40. This is the last time I am going post that.
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Old March 2, 2005, 12:00 AM   #46
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Go for it if its legal

I usually dont have a long gun in the truck, but its legal in my state to do so. When I spend time in the country I always have one handy. For me, a pistol is generally enough for self defense when I'm out and about around town.

I dont like statements like "The anti-gunners will have a field day because of [blank]". It assumes they operate on rational thought verses emotion and we should all know by now their agenda isnt about being rational.

If its legal and makes you feel better load up with all you can. If more folks were driving around with a carload of guns, provided they follow the law, we all would be better off.
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Old March 2, 2005, 12:15 AM   #47
too many choices!?
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J-wise

Besides the reasons I gave on the bottom of the first page of this thread,especially the **** off a liberal one , an AR-15 pistol will do all that a rifle will do in a more handy package.....I could keep it in the car as any other handgun I own cocked and ready if needed......Who said anything about carrying it in a coat (more like under the seat lol).... but now that you mention it,hmmmmmm!!!!
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Old March 2, 2005, 01:00 AM   #48
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I'm just saying, if it's in your trunk anyways, may as well have the rifle. It's not really important, just a small critique in my opinion. The advantages of the AR pistol are for discreet carrying in cases, or for concealed carry on persons. JMHO
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Old March 2, 2005, 01:13 AM   #49
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Roof Rack.

In many states it is illegal to transport a LOADED long gun in your vehicle.
In WA you cannot have a loaded rifle or shotgun in the car, even if you have a CCW and keep a loaded pistol on your person.

That being the case, I have learned to use butt-stock shell holders to great effect.
I prefer my overhead rack. It mounts between the interior roof-line moldings of my SUV. It holds one gun on each side.
I keep a Maverick 88 (26" barrel)with slugs and buckshot on one side, and my Winchester .30-30 on the other. Both have empty mags, but shells on the gun. It takes a little practice to load quickly, but it can be done.

I hope I never have to use either. I hope I never have to use my sidearm. I hope to never be involved in a shooting.
If, however, there are no LEO's about and a life is in danger, (mine or another's) I will take all neccessary measures to get that life OUT of danger.

Mark Wilson is an inspiration to me. In a world of "all for one, more for me", Mr. Wilson displayed selfless courage far surpassing anyone I can think of. Where many would have sized up the odds and walked away, he chose to "do right, not easy."
He's a hero for his unselfish attitude, not his tactics.
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Old March 2, 2005, 07:31 AM   #50
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CB3 is spot on.....

Think COVER....not caliber

It is distressing to see so many focusing on the tools rather than the tactics

Stop watching those old westerns where the two guys stand in the street and blaze away at each other

It didn't happen that way then....and it is a bad plan now.
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