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Old February 25, 2005, 03:06 PM   #1
Duxman
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High Powered Backup Weapons

Given the situations both in N. Hollywood and more recently in Tyler, Texas (where gunmen with assualt rifles and bulletproof vests) went out against civilians, I was wondering: How many of you folks carrying high powered backup weapons in your vehicle? (And if so, what kind of weapon)

Plus has anyone thought of hidden compartments in your cars to carry such weapons? The twin HK UMP's in the back seat of the Ferrari in Bad Boys 2 looked great, as well as the hide behind the baby seat shotgun in Wanted Dead or Alive come to mind.

I personally was thinking of a .44 magnum with a red dot scope. Should do very well for armor piecering capacity and range for those nasty AK's.
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Old February 25, 2005, 04:05 PM   #2
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After seeing that my friend's CZ-52 would do in terms of penetration using the 7.62 by 25 Tokarev round, I plan on picking one up at some point. At around $115, it's certainly affordable.
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Old February 25, 2005, 04:13 PM   #3
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Just through a SKS behind the seats.

Problem solved.
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Old February 25, 2005, 07:29 PM   #4
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Sorry, Duxman, . . .

I'd vote against it. My SA .45 is plenty enough fire power for any situation I should encounter short of a terrorist situation.

The LEO's in LA were just overgunned by their own brass, . . . and that has changed there (I understand) and here in Ohio, . . . both with weaponry and tactics. Bg shot up a bar here a few months ago, . . . LEO on the scene with an 870, gave the bg 9 ea 00 buck pellets in the face, . . . end of problem.

The civilian in Texas (according to today's news anyway) shot him center mass twice but bg had on kevlar and a flak jacket. Civilian didn't have his act in gear and got killed. From what we were able to glean, . . . probably double tapped the bg then looked up to see what the effect was. Got killed for that mistake.

If you ever engage a perp holding a long gun with your hand gun, . . . first off you are being rather ignorant, . . . and second off, . . . you better be going for slide lock and reaching for a second magazine while you do it. Bg has every advantage possible except maybe for your first surprize shot. Bad idea.

But I digress, . . . .45 ACP with two magazines should get you through any normal situation any of us are likely to engage (and live through) and give you ammo to get home on. Leaving a long gun in an unattended vehicle will sooner or later become public knowledge, . . . and your vehicle will be broken in to, . . . your weapon gone, . . . and it will be a bad guy who now has you outgunned. Another bad idea.

Anyway, may God bless,
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Old February 25, 2005, 08:37 PM   #5
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Depends on your situation. I know that after that bank robbery, a lot of cops were issued, or allowed to carry ar15's, which would penetrate. I plan to do that, so that I have an option if I run into that kind of situation. Also, hitting him with a slug from a .44 mag, FMJ, preferably with a pointy tip (if there is such a thing) would probably net reliable results. Even if it didn't penetrate, it would still hurt like a SOB
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Old February 25, 2005, 09:16 PM   #6
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Only Sergeants, Lieutenants and SWAT are allowed to Carry M-16s in the patrol units in good ol' El A. Patrolmen are still hangin' out to dry.

It is not considered good form to engage perps with superior firepower to yous in most LE Circles. There are time to lay dog or to ambush the BG and there are times to didi mau the AO.

I would be hard pressed to actively egage a person with a scope sighted semi auto rifle if all I was in possession of was a pistol, no matter the caliber.
It's a tough deal when you're trying to protect other folks. This is the reason that I believe Mark Wilson is one of the True Heros of the State of Texa and should be recoginzes as such. Too bad it's not part of the News Media's Agenda.

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Old February 25, 2005, 09:26 PM   #7
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Mark Wilson is one of the True Heroes of the State of Texas and should be recoginzed as such.
Well said.
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Old February 26, 2005, 09:23 AM   #8
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Any of you know about any fund set up for Mr. Wilson's family?

How about an address where we could send cards?

I think it would be very appropriate from those of us who truly do appreciate his sacrifice.

Thanks, may God bless,
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Old February 26, 2005, 09:44 AM   #9
too many choices!?
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ar pistol or sks or ak, any of these with a scope(red dot)

and a couple of 'nanna clips if applicable !

PS You guys are right! If the media won't cover this voluntarily, we should make it "news worthy" by our response !.....
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Old February 26, 2005, 11:20 AM   #10
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So, it sounds like some feel that if the BG has any gun that they percieve of as "superior" then they will just run and hide, or go home and do nothing? Particularly if they are afraid to carry any other weapon in their vehicle because of the possibility it MAY be stolen?

Cooper made a good point about "outgunned" being a state of mind, not "firepower". If you THINK you are "outgunned" or the other guy has "superior firepower" then you have lost the fight before it begins. He went on to relate how Butch O'hare flew into a formation of Japanese fighter bombers that had "superior firepower" with his puny several 50 cal brownings to their numerous machine guns and cannons. He managed to shoot several of them down before running out of ammo. He was "outgunned" by the mentality expressed above, but there isn't any evidence he wet his pants over it and went home to stay safe. Quite the contrary.


I always have a Winchester carbine in my vehicle, and sometimes a 30-06 scoped bolt gun. Insurance will cover them if they get stolen.

From Coopers Commentaries Vol 5, No 5:

"Remember the axiom that you are only "outgunned" if you miss. Only the old-timers among us remember the deserved adulation heaped upon Butch O'Hare, after whom the Chicago airport is now named. In his magnificent exploit he was the only Navy fighter plane available in the air when nine Japanese Betty's were observed in attack formation heading for the Lexington battle group. These Betty's were twin-engined medium bombers with rifle caliber machineguns forward and sideward, plus a 20mm automatic cannon as a tail stinger. The Nip formation was a V of V's flying very close together and protecting each other with their own guns. O'Hare was flying an F4F-3 armed with four 50-caliber Brownings and packing 200 rounds per gun. In plain sight he tore into that Jap formation and destroyed five bombers before he ran out of ammunition and the fight broke up.

Let our current handwringing journalists observe that he was not "outgunned."

Last edited by Malamute; February 26, 2005 at 09:56 PM.
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Old February 26, 2005, 12:03 PM   #11
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Sometimes, just because that's the situation that you find yourself in, "You have to dance with the one you brought to the Dance".

Sometimes you figure out that the one you brought to the dance is really ugly, but she's the one you're going to have do dance with anyway.

That's the reason we call men who are caught up in situations where they have to dance with ugly women in situations that they know they can be killed, HEROS. Mark Wilson and the Peace Officers of Tyler Texas are True Heros.
I have always believed that it is better to live one second as a Hero than a thousand years as a coward.

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Old February 26, 2005, 02:13 PM   #12
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Sorry, Duxman, . . .

I'd vote against it. My SA .45 is plenty enough fire power for any situation I should encounter short of a terrorist situation.
You know, Mark Wilson thought his .40 would be enough and that is what he grabbed from his apartment as he went outside to investigate the shots he heard, then participate, then die.

He may be a hero, but he is a dead hero and his pistol wasn't enough. A .45 acp against a vest would have performed worse.
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Old February 26, 2005, 10:13 PM   #13
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An accurate pistol is able to make head shots fairly far out, unfortunately most people don't practice this sort of shooting, and when faced with the sudden need, aren't able to pull it off.

I've heard some say it simply can't be done, even when not under stress. I know that some pistols are able to do it tho. I've seen under 3" groups @ 46 yards shot with a Smith revolver, and 6" groups shot @ 100 off the hood of a truck with a Smith 29. The guns can do it.

I guess it's easy for all of us to analyze the situation from a distance, I just hate to see folks say "it cant be done" or that it was hopeless. I think Mark Wilson did the right thing by getting involved, and am sorry he was murdered for his efforts.
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Old February 26, 2005, 10:29 PM   #14
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Can someone explain to me the difference between a flak jacket and a bulletproof vest? Thanks.
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Old February 26, 2005, 10:43 PM   #15
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After seeing that my friend's CZ-52 would do in terms of penetration using the 7.62 by 25 Tokarev round, I plan on picking one up at some point. At around $115, it's certainly affordable.
If you like that check out the "armour piercing" .223 Timbs
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Old February 26, 2005, 11:01 PM   #16
Walter
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A flak jacket is designed to protect the torso from flying shrapnel from
explosive devices, grenades, etc.
A bulletproof vest is designed to stop the penetration of a bullet fired from
a gun.
The flak jackets we wore in Viet Nam had fiberglass panels in them. They
would stop small shrapnel, I doubt they would stop a moderately high
velocity handgun round like a .40S&W or a .357.

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Old February 27, 2005, 01:07 AM   #17
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Malamute,

Head shots sound real good until you try to make one on a real (moving) person who's trying to kill you with a rifle.

My guess is that there are very few people with the skill and nerve required to score a head shot under those conditions unless the range is near pointblank. Across the street? Forget it.
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Old February 28, 2005, 08:44 PM   #18
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Head shots sound real good until you try to make one on a real (moving) person who's trying to kill you with a rifle. My guess is that there are very few people with the skill and nerve required to score a head shot under those conditions unless the range is near pointblank. Across the street? Forget it.
Right on! The modern failure drill is to shoot for the pelvic region, instead of the head. Many blood vessels/arteries/nerves, plus a shattered pelvic bone usually may not take someone out of the fight, but it will certainly affect their mobility.

As for carry of higher power weapons, there is usually an 870 with 10 rounds of OOBuck and 10 rounds slugs in a case in my Cherokee. Along with my usual carry gear (handgun, spare mag, Surefire 6P) my vehicle also contains 4-D cell Maglite, Cold Steel Tanto, well-equipped first-aid kit, along with the usual tools, spare tire, etc. Sometimes I carry a rifle or my Mechtech .45ACP CCU.
Lockable case, secured to the floor, covered by one of the window shade type covers. Not perfect, but what is?

I am just a CCW holder, not LE, but back-up may be farther away from me than Motorola.
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Old February 28, 2005, 10:08 PM   #19
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Mark was shooting a 1911 .45 that day, not a .40. When he saw Maribel (whom I knew) and her son getting gunned down he did the right thing, it might not have been the "smart thing" that the arm chair Quarterbacks thought he should have done. He did what he could with what he had. 99% of the time the perps are not armed, if so he would still be with us.

I wonder what a .357 SIG would do against the combination of the flak jacket and bullet-proof vest. I have seen that round punch through body armor that stopped everything from a 9mm, .45, .357 Mag. and others. I saw it first hand at the firing range that Mark Wilson used to own, it was performed by a former DEA instructor who wanted to show the power of the then new cartridge. I am wondering now if maybe I shouldn't throw the ol' 30-30 behind the seat. My AR is a bit cumbersome, as it has a heavy H-Bar barrel and doesn't come to the shoulder near as quick. Plus, the 30-30 is cheap, so if it gets stolen no big deal. It is something to consider.
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Old February 28, 2005, 10:28 PM   #20
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There seems to be an attitude here that if a gun is stolen it's cheap and no big deal or insurance will cover it. How about responsibility here? Any lawfully owned gun falling into criminal hands works against us law abiding citizens.

And, you are lucky in other parts of the country. Here in MA, if you have a gun stolen from your vehicle, you can lose your LTC for it. It's completely legal to leave a firearm unattended in a MV now, as long as it's unloaded and in a locked case. But, anti-gun police chiefs have used a stolen firearm as an excuse to call you an "unsuitable person" and pull your permit because you were irresponsible and left a gun unattended.

Welcome to MA.
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Old February 28, 2005, 10:49 PM   #21
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Nice thoughts on the 30-30. Sounds like a good idea. I am looking into the prospect for a modified .22 pistol (low recoil, high accuracy) that will allow me headshots @ 50 yards.

Hawg, I don't think any of the responsible gun owners here leave their cars unlocked with the keys in them. And although there is a higher % of your weapon being stolen from your car rather than your home, the right be armed and prepared comes first. Criminals stealing stuff be dammed.

Lets prosecute the criminals who steal the weapons (send them to 50 years in jail....and then perhaps they will learn and stop that crap.)

Unfortunately you live in MA, perhaps its time to move.

Check out Virginia's project exile. If you use an illegal gun in Virginia you are exiled for LIFE from this state. It has reduced the illegal gun violence in Richmond (formerly a high murder rate into a manageble one..)
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Old February 28, 2005, 10:54 PM   #22
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Yes, I would love to move from MA, but family and work prohibit it at this time.

I've said for years that I feel MA needs a state law which adds 25 years on to any sentence if a criminal is in possession of an illegal gun or uses a gun in commission of a crime. But, this is MA. It's society's fault, not the criminal's.
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Results of the 1998 Massachusetts gun laws:

It is important to keep in mind the ISP reports show that firearm related homicides decreased 56% from 1994 to 1998.

From 1998 to 2002, firearm related homicides increased 48%. During the same time, firearm related accidental deaths have increased 200%.

Will work for ammo.
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Old March 1, 2005, 12:09 PM   #23
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With all due respect, I am getting the image that a few of you are planning this "golfbag o' guns" that you plan on toting around in your vehicle should one of these Tyler situations occur with you on the scene.

"Hmmm. That man appears to be wearing layers of kevlar and firing a Romanian AK. I think I'll use the .44 with dot sight to penetrate the armor, or maybe I should go with the M-forgery and a mag full or SS109's, then again Grandad's old thutty-thutty throws so nice, but I haven't tried out the Buckmark with subsonics..."

First, these situations are so rare that, when they occur, they make national news and are a hot topic for weeks.

Secondly, do you really see yourself getting to the car, unlimbering and/or loading whatever you cooly select as the appropriate club from the bag, and then engaging the shooter taking fire all the while? Or is it running the block or so to the car, selecting the right club, then running back?

I think one might be better served by planning, equipping, and training for situations that are more likely to be encountered.
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Last edited by Golgo-13; March 1, 2005 at 12:45 PM.
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Old March 1, 2005, 01:22 PM   #24
too many choices!?
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If the odds are one in a (large number of choice), the possibility still exists

These events are happening, period. Being prepared is NEVER a bad thing.... And to answer your question, yes. I would go to my "golf bag" and select the proper club. Block away or no block away.....If it saves lives why wouldn't I? Or better yet, how could I not? ? Only if this was necesary to save lives.....As in there is no police presence ont he scene at all.....There is no "effective"(officer down or out gunned) police presence on the scene...... or no police presence is believed to be coming to the scene(riots where they set a perimeter). We have seen all of these in the last ten years or so....So how is being prepared with my golf bag going to hurt again !!!!

Because as our fallen HERO already knew, bringing a pistol to a ,"body armor and rifle fight", is the equivalent of bringing ,"a knife to a gun fight" You COULD win but odds are not in your favor......

Having said all that, I will try to keep a 10-11 1/2" AR-15pistol in my car(when its finished that is)....Concealed carry license should apply as it is a "pistol" as defined. 30 rounds of .223 should penetrate most armor that "We the people" should see, and no recoil to deal with....with a "red dot of death" = easy off hand shots of atleast 5-7 moa(easily a head shot) at 50-70 yds or more.....Lastly, an ar pistol makes libs. freek, as it just looks so damn sexy(black) and fires armor piercing bullets(like all center fire rifle ammo will)! Get one if for no other reason than the ,"**** off a liberal effect!"

Last edited by too many choices!?; March 2, 2005 at 12:05 AM.
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Old March 1, 2005, 01:34 PM   #25
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So how is being prepared with my golf bag going to hurt again !!!!
I'm going to go with the presumption that, like most of us, you do not have an unlimited budget or unlimited training time. Simply having a box of guns in the car doesn't make you prepared. If I need to spell out why for you, let me know.
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