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Old February 25, 2005, 01:19 AM   #1
Jungle Work
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Body Armor and Bad Guys

There was a shootout at the Tyler Texas Court House today involving a Mexican Man who was the subject of a domestic case (and everybody thinks murder cases are dangerous). The Mexican Man reportedly had a Semi Auto Rifle with a high cap mag and was killing his wife by shooting her. He also wounded two Peace Officers who responded to the shooting. Also killed was a Texas CHL Holder who came to the rescue of the woman and officers. The Mexican Man who was shooting the the officers was confronted by the CHL Holder who entered into the gun battle. The Mexican Man had on Body Armor and the CHL's rounds had no or little effect so the report goes. Other Texas Peace Officers taking exception to his attitude and actions killed the Mexican Perp a short distance down the road.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/10982694.htm

http://www.tylerpaper.com/site/news.cfm?brd=1994

Guys, whether you are in North Hollywood or Tyler Texas, use good tactics if you ever become involved in an armed confrontation, first go to cover unless your belly to belly with the perp and if you put two to somebody's chest and they do not go down, you'd better start making head shots or fall back for a rifle.

When you pratice at the range, get a three pound coffee can, cut out both ends and take some white paint and color a circle using the can as a template. Pratice keeping your rounds in the circle. A moving head is a lot harder to hit, but point of aim(accuracy) shooting is a must. In the early 70s we use to use the coffee can trick for point shooting at 3,5,and 7 yards. The point being to keep them in the circle while not aiming but point shooting at those close distances. Later on the drill became two to the chest, one to the head and they all fall down dead. Shooting at the pelvic area is also considered good form by LE if the perp is believe to be wearing Body Armor.

Good luck Guys and God Bless the Brave CHL Holder.

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Old February 25, 2005, 01:50 AM   #2
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Nightmare

This is a nightmare scenario because most of us keep our rifles w/red dots at home and carry a handgun for our primary means of self defense. I believe in this scenario the assailant had a AK-47 so could easily shoot through body armor. Yet the cops and CCW holders would be outgunned with pistols since the man had on both body armor and a flak jacket (these facts could be off but I think I read this someplace else).

Although the pizza parlor incident created intense debate this scenario is even tougher to answer the what would you do question.

Let's say the situation was you saw a man with a AK-47 with several magazines and a scope walk up to the courthouse where you plan to renew your CCW and starts gunning down people. Several cops and another civilian with his trusty handgun go down in the firefight. You also have your trusty Springfield Amory TRP Operator .45 with you but no rifle. What would you do?

Unlike the pizza parlor incident I really do not think I have any advantage here and no matter how many unarmed people rushed this man it is unlikely they would stop him. So I am ashamed to admit in this scenario I'd get the hell out of there.

I don't trust myself enough to shoot a head. I can shoot at 25 yards roughly center mass and not miss the paper target but a moving head and a guy shooting back at you with a scoped rifle? I know my limitations and even if I train to shoot heads I don't think it'd work in this situation.

I mean if somehow I pulled it off it'd be great to be known as a skilled shooter who hit a head while several cops failed and be known as both a hero and a justification for CCW permits everywhere plus saving lives... but more likely than not if I tried to stop him I'd be shot dead.
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Old February 25, 2005, 01:52 AM   #3
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Glad you added shooting at the pelvic girdle. I was going to suggest that be the secondary target area as it is larger and will reduce the perp's mobility. And there are large blood vessels there as well as the lower G.I. and muscles that are used for balance and movement.
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Old February 25, 2005, 02:11 AM   #4
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I carry a Mossberg 590 with slugs and buck in the truck 24/7. take it out once a week to clean it. I have insurance and it's cheap insurance.

It's not considered good form to take on folks with scope sighted rifles with pistols. There are times just to "Lay Dog" or to run.

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Old February 25, 2005, 03:10 AM   #5
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I hope that guys family gets some kind of recognition for his actions.
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Old February 25, 2005, 04:59 AM   #6
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Center Mass?

Jungle Work,

You bring up a good point about learning how to shoot heads and legs but almost all the fire arms training that I have received (and I believe most cops and federal agents receive) teach to shoot center mass because it is hard enough to hit even that when the target is moving and under high stress.

I would think aiming at different body parts with a handgun at relatively long distances is near impossible in the situation described above. Not saying it is impossible but not sure how practical it would be against a bullet proof vest flak jacket wearing killer with a scoped assult rifle vs my handgun and dockers. Then again if I was the target then trying something is better than nothing.

That being said I'm always on the look out for new ways to train so I'll try what you suggest at the next range visit.
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Old February 25, 2005, 06:02 AM   #7
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Another good reason to consider keeping an inexpensive, reliable rifle in your car's secure storage area. Even something like a NEF Handi-Rifle in .223 or .308 would have made a difference in this situation.

Prayers for the families of the dead & the wounded. Kudos to the cops who stopped that monster & the CCW who tried ....
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Old February 25, 2005, 06:07 AM   #8
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Mettelus

I have always been trained to shoot center mass of my available target. So if you are firing at someone, say, who is using cover but exposing a shoulder and arm then I would shoot center mass of that target, small yes but the best option. Same can be said if firing at someone with body armor. After hitting the target several times center mass of the body with little or no effect, time to pick a new target. Head, groin, leg..... whatever is available. In this situation it seems that this CHL was just at to great of a disadvantage, by the time he realizes his rounds are ineffective the BG as got him zeroed in with a rifle. After that it is all over with.
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Old February 25, 2005, 06:56 AM   #9
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Jungle Work,
I can't get the Star Telegram article up. Did they say Wilson had a CHL? I know he owned a range and was oriented to self defense, but according to DPS, he was not a CHL Instructor. You can look up instructors at DPS, but not regular CHL holders.
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Old February 25, 2005, 07:22 AM   #10
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People think I am a bit paranoid...I think I am being realistic with my readiness...each must decide on his own how "ready" they will be in all situations...this story proves that really bad things do happen...I think key for me is to not go into the "this cannot be happening" mode and freeze up. Not sure what I would do in that situation though...it depends on if I was alone, with my kids etc. Part of me says that after he shot a cop though (or anyone) I would have to take some action...probably cover first if possible and hope that I could help somehow.
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Old February 25, 2005, 10:36 AM   #11
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Guys,
Must everybody I know in LE is taught to shoot "Center Mass" for the first few shots, but if you know you are hitting the perp and he's not going down, you had better have a new plan or didi mau that AO. That's the reason many Police Firearm Instructors teach "Head Shot Drills" or "Pelvic Shot Drills". North HollyWierd kinda brought that to the forefront of police awareness.

"Two to the Chest, one to the head, they all fall down dead" or "Two to the chest, One to the thigh, they all fall down and die".

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Old February 25, 2005, 10:43 AM   #12
Jungle Work
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dn spy,

http://kevxml2adsl.verizon.net/_1_2Z...ore=&section=1

"The victims were identified as ex-wife Maribel Estrada, 41, and Mark Wilson, 52, a bystander with a concealed weapons permit who had tried to help. Estrada and Arroyo divorced a year ago after 22 years of marriage."

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Old February 25, 2005, 11:02 AM   #13
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This is definately a Kobiashi Maru scenario. Especially since the typical CCW holder will be carrying a pistol. My sincere thanks to the man who sacrificed his life here, along with the peace officers. It goes to show that human nature of self-sacrifice is very much alive in our society.

Now in this situation, I would probably get into cover and hide, and if there was a possibility of getting a clean head shot (keep in mind, we need to be aware of what is behind our target as well - cannot accidentally take out innocents while trying a headshot) within a reasonable range, 7-10 yards max, I would take it. And evade. (whether I hit or miss)

Good idea on the pelvic region shots. I wonder what are the chances of hitting the AK-47 and causing it to malfunction?
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Old February 25, 2005, 11:11 AM   #14
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Mr. Wilson was a defender of society, and represents what is right with this country.

RIP, Sir, and thanks for running to the sound of the guns.
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Old February 25, 2005, 11:13 AM   #15
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Maybe we should practice a 6-shot modified Mozambique:

2 COM
2 Head
2 Pelvis

Either that or all carry FiveseveNs. Tragic.
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Old February 25, 2005, 12:59 PM   #16
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Got a little more info in today.

http://kevxml2adsl.verizon.net/_1_8N...&feed=ap&top=1

A clip from the article...

Authorities credited the bystander who died, Mark Alan Wilson, 52, with saving the son's life.

Wilson, a gun enthusiast who had a concealed weapons permit, intervened after Arroyo started shooting, witnesses said. Swindle said Wilson shot at Arroyo several times but his rounds didn't penetrate the armor.

"They traded shots, missing each other, and then the gunman hit Wilson and Wilson went down," Tyler Morning Telegraph publisher Nelson Clyde III said in Friday's editions of the newspaper.

"The gunman walked up to Wilson and shot him while he was on the ground," said Clyde, who watched the shooting from a nearby restaurant. "I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was sickening."
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Old February 25, 2005, 07:37 PM   #17
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This is exactly why I have added Crimson Trace grips to my carry gun.
Rest in peace Mr. Wilson. You were the hero we all aspire to be. God Bless you and your family.

A shot to the pelvic girdle may have droped him, but only a CNS shot will stop him immediately from shooting back. That head shot would be much easier once you had him on the ground.
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Old February 25, 2005, 07:45 PM   #18
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On the tube today, . . . it sounded as though Wilson may have done the old double tap, . . . look for effect scenario. If so, . . . it probably fully contributed to his being hit.

I think it also points up to the idea that if you are going to be armed, give up the .25, .32 etc, . . . and take a piece with you that stands a chance.

Anytime you are facing a long gun with a hand gun, . . . you are definitely at a disadvantage, . . . calls for slide lock mentality I would think.

As others have said, . . . our country is better knowing that there are Mr. Wilson's willing to give the measure when necessary.

May God bless,
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Old February 25, 2005, 07:45 PM   #19
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From this incident, and others like it, I've reached the determination that if I am facing a rifle armed opponent I'm going to assume he is wearing body armor. Guys that commit this sort of crime seem to come equipped for a long term fight, and body armor is a part of their inventory. (Plus spare magazines in a chest pouch affords him some measure of ballistic protection.) A standard response is just going to alert him that there is a lethal threat nearby, and cause him to orient on me. Against a rifle armed enemy that really makes for long odds.

The first few rounds have to have some form of debilitating effect...inflict pain, reduce mobility, whatever. Earlier posters spoke of transitioning to legs, the pelvis or head after attempting two rounds COM. I think by then it may be too late.
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Old February 25, 2005, 08:09 PM   #20
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the man killed was, I believe, Mark Miller, age 52 of Tyler, Texas...lived near the scene and came to assist officers...he is being credited with saving lives of by-standers and perhaps the shooter's own son.
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Old February 25, 2005, 08:10 PM   #21
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opps..think Wilson is correct..sorry...
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Old February 25, 2005, 08:54 PM   #22
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Mark Allen Wilson was a CHL holder and previously owned a gun range. He was a noted gun enthusiast.

He was not on the scene when the shooting started. He lived nearby and heard the shooting and came to the scene.

The police spokesman per a deputy's eyewitness says that Mr. Wilson saved the life of the murderer's son who had already been shot in the legs when Mr. Wilson intervened.
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Old February 25, 2005, 09:17 PM   #23
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Has anybody read anything about where/if Wilson hit the BG? Any reports of indentations in the body armor, or wounds elsewhere?

If not, it's possible Wilson saw the body armor and was aiming for a smaller target, hence the misses.
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Old February 25, 2005, 09:24 PM   #24
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It is not clear whether Mr. Wilson was missing or if his rounds were not having any effect due to the body armor of the murderer.

Eyewitnesses said he was missing, but they're programmed by Hollywood to expect an immediate result from a bullet strike. Even without body armor, that's not always going to happen--ain't like in the movies.

I think he was hitting ok. Seems like at least one report by the police said that he hit the murderer more than once.
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Old February 25, 2005, 09:27 PM   #25
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has anyone heard about what distance Mr. Wilson was from that creep when he was firing at him? im sure he didnt have time to try for head shots, nor the presence of mind to do so, i mean how many civilians are walking around with body armor?
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