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Old February 25, 2005, 12:27 AM   #76
BillCA
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I wondered if anyone would suggest kicking the guy's knees or attacking his legs. Doesn't always work.

First, one has to look at the man's size and his "beefy-ness". While he looks fat, I'd bet that there's a fair amount of muscle in there, underneath his "padding". And therein lies a problem. Using a baton of any kind to strike him in a knee, elbow or wrist probably won't do the damage it would on a 200 lb man. Two of us had the pleasure of trying to take down a guy like this in '77 using standard hickory batons. Repeated solid hits to knees, shins, ankles, wrist and hands went nearly unacknowledged. He grabbed my partner's baton and lifted a 6'3", 220lb man off the ground and into the side of a dumpster, ending up with the baton. The Sgt. and I cleared leather together and the only remaining question was whether he gave up looking down Sarge's .45 or my .41 Mag. The only difference was that our perp was a rather large Samoan fellow and we needed leg irons to cuff him.

From the looks of the video, it appears that the victim avoided eye contact so as to avoid challenging and got slammed for it. Then he tried to make for the door to exit the situation but was stopped and hit again by Jabba the blut. After the 3rd hit you can see the victim trying to hold on to Jabba, only to be beaten down to the floor.

There's almost no position available inside the store from which any of the others could safely shoot. And with a man who's legs look like tree trunks, I'm not jumping on him at all. OC spray might've worked, but in those confines, everyone, including the user, would've been hit with the stuff.

In the 1890's, my great-grandfather would've stepped in with his sword cane and hobbled to S.O.B. Alas, such things will get you arrested in most cities today.
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Old February 25, 2005, 12:32 AM   #77
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And thanks to the movie "Misery" we all know what hobbling is...
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Old February 28, 2005, 08:01 AM   #78
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Mannlicher - Very good, thoughtful post. The problem with a lot of incidents of this nature is it is hard to determine where somebody's stopping point and starting points are. Hitting somebody in the head makes me assume there is clear intent to inflict serious injuries and there is a significant risk of death, intended or not by the perp. The shooting of another person, no matter how justifiable, can have serious psychological consequences to one's self.
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Old March 1, 2005, 03:28 PM   #79
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I agree with a few who said their blood was boiling. I am a retired police officer with 2 years local, and 10 years federal service. I was injured in the line of duty, but that is not a factor, day to day.

Last November, I contracted Guillian-Berre Syndrome...it is a neuromuscular disease that shuts down your central nervous system, and thought it is 100% treatable and curable...it is a 6-12 month process before you are fully "back". I am recovering, and only using a cane for walking, unless I go to a Big Box Store...I use a rented power scooter type chair.

Okay, I add this as background, because my reaction right at this minute would HAVE to be different than when I am running on all cylinders. Know, that I also carry a handgun daily, as I have for 20 years.

I am 6'4" normally weigh in at 375lbs. I am normally very strong, and have years of defensive tactics training, ranging from holds, throws, boxing, and plain old fighting dirty...I was always a member of the "A HAND ON ME COSTS YOU A BROKEN BONE RIGHT NOW!" club while on the job.

When at full physical strength and ability and endurance, I'd have nad zero problem going toe to toe with the gorilla. As many have stated, he was big, strong, and could probably hit hard...but he was also slow, and untrained. He saw the victim as prey...he knew going in he could win. I am convinced that if the victim had stood his ground and acted like a wolf rather than a sheep, the gorilla would have "ghetto styled", run his mouth, and acted the part of a tough guy, and in the end, would have left running his mouth. I have seen it happen many many times. The victim cowed and turned his attention away from the gorilla, and that is when he was attacked.

Had I been there in my present state , I would have told the gorilla to stop, called 911, and placed my hand on my leather and lead sap which I carry in my back pocket. If the gorilla would have made a step toward me, I'd have knocked his brains loose. I know, I have seen me do it!

If I were at my normal level of strength...I would have called 911, told him to stop, and if he continued to beat the victim, I would forget waiting for him bring the fight to me...I'd simply skip to the part where I knock his brains loose with the sap.

I carry everywhere, everday...I don't leave home without my defensive handgun...but I don't see a justification for a non LEO to draw or shoot in this instance. But it would be a hard call to make,. armchair quarterbacking it. I can only say what I believe I would do, based upon my actions in the past.
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Old March 1, 2005, 04:43 PM   #80
erehwesle
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Interesting set of thoughts here.

I have an interesting perspective on this as I *have* been attacked and pummeled in an attempt to rob me, while armed (I at the time didn't have a CCW, so was carrying a knife, Spyderco Chinnook to be specific). The attacker attacked me from behind (by wacking me over the head), and tried to wrestle my briefcase (secured across my body with a strap) from me, failing in that decided to 'rough me up' a bit.

I decided, given the situation, not to draw the blade, as I felt at the time my only option, given the poor tactical situation (me already down on the ground) would have been to try for a killing blow which was low percentage, or run a significant risk of having it taken away from me. I opted to protect my vitals, and, as we were in a fairly public place, hope it didn't last long.

This experience ended for me in a concussion, along with a 13 stitch gash in my scalp (from the initial attack, didn't see it, it was from behind, he used a board which he then dropped), and some bruised ribs, from being kicked etc.. once I was already down. By the time I was on my back, it was impossible for him to wrestle my briefcase away from me, as I fell on the strap, so I didn't even lose anything, except some blood and dignity.

This has been a huge motivating factor for me to take some self-defense courses, carry pepper spray at all times, and get a CCW.

However, in the situation, I still think it was right not to draw the knife. According to the police officer who interviewed me after if I had stabbed him, given he was 'unarmed', I would likely be looking at assault/murder myself. Any situation he could see that would have given me an opening tactically to use the knife, would have also given me the ability to disengage. I was actually complimented by the officer for my restraint (thanks sir! how bout a ride to the hospital?) I think that shooting an unarmed assailant would probably be looked on in a worse light.

This significantly underlined, to say the least, the drawbacks of a knife as a self-defense weapon. I strongly feel now that there are two classes of situation, those that pepper spray will handle (unarmed assailant), and those that I'd really like a gun on me, thank you (armed assailant).

Now that I have a CCW, I'd be very leery drawing on anyone unarmed, working on the reality this has pounded into my head, that you can't, even if you have it, draw a weapon unless you are completely prepared to use it, and to defend that decision and all of its consequenses.

I second and third those who recomend pepper spray in the situation, as well as yelling, or even wacking the guy over the head with something like a chair if you really feel the other person's life is in danger. I just think it is a bad time to go OK Corrall.

Oh, and also, trust me, it is a really good thing to watch your six! Learned that the hard way......

Just me $.02, probably worth even less. Interesting discussion, though.
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Old March 3, 2005, 07:16 AM   #81
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Sean - I assume you would agree that it would be unwise to refer to the perp as a "gorilla" should one actually be involved in that situation?
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Old March 3, 2005, 08:10 AM   #82
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Quote:
However, in the situation, I still think it was right not to draw the knife. According to the police officer who interviewed me after if I had stabbed him, given he was 'unarmed', I would likely be looking at assault/murder myself. Any situation he could see that would have given me an opening tactically to use the knife, would have also given me the ability to disengage. I was actually complimented by the officer for my restraint (thanks sir! how bout a ride to the hospital?) I think that shooting an unarmed assailant would probably be looked on in a worse light.
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Old March 4, 2005, 12:36 AM   #83
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Some observations. Usually if you are like me, in situations such as this you are simply stunned and it takes several moments to process what is occuring, much less act. My mind would have been focused on the behavior of the women and then very shocked by the man. The big guy was swinging for only a few seconds and it would have taken almost immediate response to prevent/diffuse his attack. To successfully engage someone that size a person would have to be trained or had enough time for the adrenaline to kick in.

What really bothers me is how our society tolerates behavior like this. Vigilante response on these thugs is not good because of lack of objectivity, thus justice is easily compromised. But gosh dog, if that thug was before me on a jury I would push for a long prison sentenance. On the same thought, for these pervent child molesters, the firing squad (by the government of course) should be employed. I live in a city with a high crime rate. Elements of our city vote for leaderships simply based on whether the candidate is a minority. They seem to disregard how crappy the city has become under the current minority mayor. I would in a heart beat vote for a minority if I thought he was going to do a good job. Turning the tables, my minority brothers don't seem to feel the same way. It truly astounds me.
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Old March 12, 2005, 12:35 AM   #84
roger-ruger
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the BG was obviously in rage and on a rampage against the poor fella. i guess calling his attention but not drawing your CCW weapon will just obviously turn you be another bashing victim. people who are in rage are irrational, period. so draw then speak and shout and tell the BG to stop or you'll shoot. at least in the Philippines this is logical. but in the states i dunno.
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Old March 12, 2005, 09:50 AM   #85
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Yo, Cro-mag!

In all honesty and without hindsight, had I been in the room, I'd have reacted by screaming at the guy, then defending myself best I could. Rather an a$$ pounding than standing there while he pulped the guy.

Clearing leather in that 10x20 room full of people would have had disastrous consequences. Spray would have been helpful but likely not as effective as hoped.

So, I would have aided the victim as best I could and probably shared an ambulance with him.

Not cool, but honest.
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