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Old February 23, 2005, 11:15 PM   #51
Troponin
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snacktrack, watch the video again. He actually goes for the door to run after the first punch but was hit again.

Have you ever been punch that hard before? I have been punch by a middle weight boxer when I was 17 years old. I must have "looked at him wrong" and he came over when I wasn't looking and punched me. It wasn't until a few weeks later that I learned why it hurt so bad. I was seeing stars and not thinking straight. Fight back? I couldn't see anything, let alone know where to swing. Took a good minute before I could see straight. Yes, it was at a Taco Bell, full of people staring at me. The worst thing was I was with two of my best friends who did nothing too.
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Old February 23, 2005, 11:26 PM   #52
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yes i did.

you watch it again. First of all, it wasnt a sucker punch. He confronts him, and if you atch closely, he looks down to take the ear piece out of his ear for his cell phone. THe second he looks down, he gets hit. Why would the HELL would you look away if someone is about to punch you?

He is not incapacitated. He starts getting back up several times afer being hit. He could have punched back, he didnt.

I know my comments are kind of callous, but watch the video again. You have to be able to fight back. He did not fight back AT ALL. So he could not expected others to do what he was a coward to do himself.

I do believe peole should have gotten involved, but obviously nobody was prepared or thought they could have diffused the situation. I think OC spray would have been a perfect for this situation, and when he grabbed his eyes, I would have hit him with a chair. Im sorry but I would not have swung at the guy. I would have defended myself, but I am not putting my life in danger foolishly.
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Old February 23, 2005, 11:28 PM   #53
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Howdy,
Snacktrack ,personally I think after the victim was hit the first time he was nothing more than walking wounded. While he may have not been knocked out he was knocked senseless. Keep in mind he was sucker punched. I have witnessed many fights growing up and in the service, often times the fight was won by that all important first punch. It's really hard to defend yourself when you are dazzed. While from a legal standpoint I would probally be in the wrong, if I HAD to engage a bigger and stronger opponent I would defnately get the first punch in.
Also this was'nt a fight, this was a beat-down pure and simple.
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Old February 23, 2005, 11:37 PM   #54
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Hey Zulu,

Yeah I think maybe he couldnt think straight, only he could honestly answer that. His big mistake was being submissive and looking down. You are right that first hit is what did him in, cause from that point he felt helpless. He turned a fight into a beatdown by not being prepared for that first punch and looking away.

Being a smaller guy, I would have to get the first punch in to be able to win a fight, which I have done many times. I am not in the business of proving myself anymore against opponents. I have been very lucky. I have only had a true sucker punch once, and I wasnt hurt at all.

I dont know, this guy really made alot of mistakes. By no means did he deserve what happened, and animals like this make me sick. I deal with people like this everyday at my work. Drug dealers, etc etc. I stand up to them, I dont let them think they are intimidating me, and I ALWAYS watch their hands and be aware of the situation at all times. I have had several times where I have had animals like this try to start a fight and I told them to get the f*ck out, even though they could have won the fight. But I have the advantage of being at work in my own element. On the street is a different story.
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Old February 23, 2005, 11:54 PM   #55
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Howdy,
Snacktrack you are absolutley correct in the fact that the victim had a total lack of situational awareness. As soon as "Bonnie" started causing a scene EVERY customer in the resturant should have been on guard. As soon as "Clyde" approached him in an agressive manner he should have either ran or taken a defensive stance(personally I would'nt have faulted him for either).
It's kinda of Ironic but as in driving sometimes it is necessary get of the freaking phone and pay attention.
I don't know that if the guy had been watching his P's & Q's if it would have made a differece but he would have had a better chance.
Keep in mind we currently live in a society where a 7th grader can get suspended for 10 days for having a rubberband (Drudge report headline as of now). It's little wonder as to why people fail in the abilty to recognize and react to a truly violent situation
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Old February 24, 2005, 12:39 AM   #56
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pulling a firearm would have never been a option, going in throwing fists wouldn't either until he attacked you. the guy needed to be stopped and tied up at that point. jump on his back tie up an arm etc. no one even tried. Its sad. People say they needed time to think, in my opinion a real man would have just acted on instinct.

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Old February 24, 2005, 01:01 AM   #57
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Howdy,
OK I'll bite, what is your definition of a real man ?
Part of instinct is knowing when to fight or when to run. Its pretty instinctive to avoid dangerous situations all together. Its pretty instinctive to protect your family,friends, and children. It is just as easy to argue that to attack a bigger stronger advesary goes against instinct. A "real man's" instinct could have easily made him extinct with 2 thugs to worry about.
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Old February 24, 2005, 02:01 AM   #58
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OC/CN spray..

There was another thread about OC/CN spray of being useless if you carry a handgun. Logic was that the only times you could jusitfy using OC/CN was the same as handguns therefore just use the handgun.

This situation is a perfect example of when escalation of force would be a useful tactic for civilians as much as it is for cops. It is not like the man suddenly out of the blue started hitting the man with no warning. When the woman starts screaming and spitting I think most of us in here would start putting the OC/CN in palm, stepping back from the entrance to create space, getting ready to draw a handgun, and scope out a possible exit. She's yelling for like 25 seconds before her boyfriend showed up. And her boyfriend is yelling at the man for 5 seconds before he actually hits the victim.

So you got 30 seconds to PREPARE if you were a bystander and properly equipped. And once the BG started throwing his fists out comes the OC/CN in the left hand. Most likely that would have ended it. If OC fails and the BG starts rushing you and you have no way to escape then time to shoot. In court you just need to convince 1/12 of the jury that you used proper escalation of force to prevent serious injury to the victim and if it escalated to the point where you can not get away and you fear for your life then shooting is appropriate.

I think the stupid thing about mr. cellphone is that he was being yelled at by a crazed woman for 25 seconds yet he kept yapping on the phone and when the BG came in he was still yapping on the phone for another 5 seconds. Where the heck was that man's warning system? Woman or not if anyone is going to start cussing me out i'd drop that phone get out the OC/CN, back away, and have my hand on the gun ready to draw.

Unlike how most people characterized this incident it really started 30 seconds BEFORE the first punch was ever thrown. That's plenty of time to PREPARE to react. And once your warning flags go up time slows down. You got the flight or fight gearing up and so the next 10 seconds would seem like minutes to you.

Or at least that's how it is supposed to work in fully functional living organisms. Most "civilized" people have lost that survival instinct.
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Old February 24, 2005, 06:10 AM   #59
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Quote:
THis guy did nothing to protect his own self. He wasnt knocked out on the first few punches. He did not try and fight back AT ALL. He did nothing.
I don't think ANYONE would have fought back right away after taking a first punch like that! That man KNEW how to fight (hence throwing ALL of his body weight into that punch). He did attempt to leave the store after the first punch was thrown.

Quote:
First of all, it wasnt a sucker punch.
Your are right! That was a KNOCKOUT punch! I am not putting anyone down or anything, but I think every last one of us would have been dazed enough after that first punch NOT to do anything!
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Old February 24, 2005, 08:27 AM   #60
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If I were in that restaurant & carrying my CCW, I absolutely WOULD draw....

1. Attacker has shown ability & willingness to harm persons in that restaurant. (what indicates he'd stop at that guy?)

2. Attacker's physical size & fighting ability prove disparity of force, allowing for a CCW to be used.

3. CCW carriers can use their weapons when threatened w/ deadly force (see 1 & 2.)

I would draw my CCW and verbally order ALL THREE (including the mouthy b**** ) on the floor until police arrive to sort out the mess. If the attacker advances on me, I'm shooting (see above). And I absolutely would NOT engage in any hand-to-hand combat w/ any of them while carrying--if they want my gun, they can have it one bullet at a time....
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Old February 24, 2005, 08:57 AM   #61
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After some thought, I am willing to bet that if the BF was shot, the GF would most likely flip and attack also. What then? Shoot her too? If she gets ahold of your gun, she WILL shoot you. I have taken down a few big black women while working at the hospital, I can assure you that with my 230lbs, I still was out of breath and was close to getting whooped. lol I'd say she she just attacked when you drew on the BF and shot her too.
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Old February 24, 2005, 09:50 AM   #62
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OK I'll bite, what is your definition of a real man ?
One that would have acted and did something/anything, or at least tried. It's not the size of the man, but whats in the heart of the man. This country was built on people doing the right thing and putting themselves in harms way for thier fellow man. It's sad to watch this country change, it's the hardest part of getting older, but knowing I raised 2 sons that wouldn't think twice in todays world to help the man out makes it a little easier. Actually the oldest just signed with the Marines last week.

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Old February 24, 2005, 10:03 AM   #63
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I couldnt agree with Metellus's post more.. Very thought out response. THats what I was trying to get across.

In this case the bravado " a real man" could make you into a real man that looks like a rag doll on the floor.
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Old February 24, 2005, 10:03 AM   #64
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zulustyle:

You know, I'm a 35 year old disabled soldier. I am the sole provider for my family which consists of three little kids, and wife. So I understand. But how can I teach my children to be honorable, and couageous, and to stand up for their morals and convictions, if I can't do the same? How can I stand there and watch something like that happen in front of me and do nothing? Would the great men who founded this country have done nothing, or would big fat dude be recovering from a serious beating himself? Now don't get me wrong, I don't say this out of any macho guy attitude. I say it because I physically and mentally could not stand to see someone who is unwilling or unable to defend themselves be possibly killed right in front of me. If that man had died from the beating, and I had done nothing to stop it, I am just as guilty of killing him as the guy who did the beating. What if our soldiers and police decided they just didn't want to get involved? Where would we be then? You can argue its because they are paid to do that, but I guess its whats inside a man that even makes him take those jobs in the first place. I am deeply ashamed and saddened by the apathy in america today.....but thats another thread I guess.......

Now of course the only way I would feel differently is if the little guy had provoked the beating. Hit the woman, whatever. If he had been guilty of anything, maybe he deserved a sound beating. Some people do. But I still would have stopped it if I thought it was going to end in permanent damage or death. And at the risk of ******* everyone off, if I had been that man whos MOUTH SHE SPIT IN......well......she'd have most likely been.....uhhm...
hindered too.....
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Old February 24, 2005, 10:10 AM   #65
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Amen! (can I still say that)

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Old February 24, 2005, 12:50 PM   #66
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Well there was an incident in the fairly recent past in Dutchess County,NY.involving two felons.One was an ex-con that had spent a number of years in prison for murder.Well the story was he was walking down the street.A very large male started pummeling him with no mercy.The ex-murderer pulled a knife and stabbed him.The attacker died of his injuries.The DA did not file charges and deemed it self-defense.
It is a fine line,but do you sacrifice life in prison to save someone else in this situation like in the pizza parlor? If he had continued to beat him or started to kick him while he was on the floor,then I think it would be more appropriate to use deadly force if the man did not cease his attack when at gunpoint.IT is also a consideration of a very crowded parlor,might be a bad move to introduce a gun in such tight,crowded quarters.In any case people there should have done something other than deadly force at least.Sure the guy is big,but he would have trouble dealing with multiple attackers.There are times when you can walk into the middle of something and not know who the bad guy is,but this isn't the case.Sometimes I'm ashamed at my fellow citizens.
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Old February 24, 2005, 01:17 PM   #67
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Volts to the sack ! !

I have A P-97 as a CCW, but I also carry a 300,000 volt stun gun.I think in this case I would be afraid to use my .45 because of how many people were in the room. Yes I would want to stop this guy, but I would not want to hurt an innocent person who happened to be in the line of fire. BUT !! I don't care how big this man is or how bad he thinks he is, if you put 300,000 volts to his sack, he is going to hit the floor, and I mean QUICK !
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Old February 24, 2005, 02:03 PM   #68
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A stun gun/taser or OC would definitely be the way to go in that situation, IMO.

But one thing I noticed, it seems like the other guys standing around weren't so much horrified as they were just observers...and maybe *letting* the BG beat him senseless. I really gotta wonder what the 'victim' was saying, maybe some racial slander?

Countless times I hear of a BG beating up on their wives, GF, whatever...but frankly the victim can say some pretty damn inflammatory words to trigger the attack. Not condoning violence in any way though, so don't get me wrong.
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Old February 24, 2005, 02:13 PM   #69
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In my state, I would yell, "He's gonna kill him!" REALLY loud and as panicky as possible at the 3rd head punch. I would then pull and most likely kill the perp with 3 center of body mass shots. Then I'd probably puke and shake all over. (I stabbed a man in the femoral artery in self defense in 1970, almost killed him, and that was my reaction about ten minutes later. And, yes, people stood impotently around watching this.) Then, I'd lawyer up and pray my clean arrest record, age, military experience, 35 years of holding a job, witnessess there, and character witnessess would help me avoid legal trouble.
If I was unarmed, I would run out of the place yelling for a cop and looking for a phone. I do not have the skills and strength to fight that guy. BTW, just to let you know I am NO hero, a major motive for running out would be to spare myself injury.
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Old February 24, 2005, 02:15 PM   #70
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P.S. I might even go see a shrink and get some kind of tranquilizers. And I'd berate myself for being an idiot to risk my freedom.
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Old February 24, 2005, 03:28 PM   #71
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In my view, the attackers fists are a deadly weapon, due to his size and a relentless rage for continuing to beat a guy after he was unconsious. Deadly force does not only include handheld weapons. Anyone who has killed someone using martial arts falls under this category.

If I was carrying: I would have shot the guy in the knee/leg, without warning. If that didn't not stop the attack, more shots would follow. As for the bystanders, I think in the close proximity of the pizza shop there would be clear shots to and behind the attacker. Plus, the size of the attacker is so large, a shot going completely through him is doubtful.

Someone also mentioned, "what if the attacker was stomping on the head of the unconcious victim". That is an even more obvious use of deadly force. The attacker would have been shot until he was on the ground.


just my thoughts
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Old February 24, 2005, 03:31 PM   #72
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And another thought. A few years back a woman was raped in a bar. The rapist was convicted, but so were the people who stood around watching it happen and not doing anything.
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Old February 24, 2005, 04:18 PM   #73
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tough call. Guess I would have had to have actually been there in order for me to say what I would have done.
These things don't take long, and in my opinion, anything that would have stopped the attack instantly, would have been fatal to someone. I am really not sure if killing the fat guy would have been the best thing.
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Old February 24, 2005, 04:33 PM   #74
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I know not everyone agrees, but I think there was a reasonable chance that he'd have fallen among the 98% of defensive gun uses where the attack is stopped with no shots fired.

He wasn't enraged and incoherent, he was methodically and deliberately kicking the victim's ass. I suspect that a .45 caliber bore in his face would have had a good chance of quickly reshuffling his priorities.
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Old February 24, 2005, 04:41 PM   #75
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Tough call. If I were CCW, that's even tougher. I'm 5'10" 170 and it's not all "solid muscle", if you know what I mean. Plus I'm fast approaching 50 years old. I am no match for Professor Toro Tanaka. I am not jumping on him with a concealed gun - if he gets that I am really in deep doo-doo. So it's either draw (and be ready to use the gun quick, otherwise don't draw!) or try and get out and call cops. If unarmed I would like to think I would try and do something, but Jeezuz that guy is big so some help would be nice.

Makes me think about carrying pepper spray - this seems the ideal situation.

Also makes me re-think carrying a bigger caliber! A .380 or 9mm would probably be like hitting that guy with a pellet gun.

It's a sickening video regardless. 4 years and the guy undoubtedly won't serve all of that - what bulls***.
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