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Old February 23, 2005, 02:42 PM   #26
snacktrack
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I think that it sucks that you have to know as much as an attorney before you can act on something like this...

Hmm, hold on while I ponder this area's laws, and then let me make a decision.

No doubt everyone on here knows that its the right thing to get involved. But what if this animal didnt stop punching and you did shoot him?

IS the guy who you are saving going to pay your 40,000 attorney bill, pay for your lost wages, take back all the time spent at trial, not to mention if you are found guilty.

I think all those guys were thinking, man that guy is going to do the same thing to me if I get involved. Yeah we all have firearms that could potentially diffuse a situation like this, but all these guy didnt. Yes if they had all joined together, they could have easily beaten that guy down. But that guy came from outside out of nowhere, who is to say all his friends arent outside.

If I was a big guy and didnt think a punch from him would do much to me, I definitely would have jumped in, unfortunately Im not a big guy like that. Neither were any of the other guys in there.

The good thing is, most of you guys have some pretty good ideas and have thought this scenario through, so that IF we had been one of those bystanders, we could do what we think is the smartest. Obviosuly most people dont prepare for these sorts of encounters.
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Old February 23, 2005, 02:56 PM   #27
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I don't care how big he is

I would have to help that guy out. Hopefully others would follow my lead because although I feel I can handle myself I don't want to take on Shug Knight. I just really getted ****** seeing this,....... working at places like that as a teenager I came to have very little tolerance for rude, arogant people and I've seen situations like this arise before, although not this bad.

At one of my jobs women just like that one there have come in a started demanding stuff and cursing in front of other customers and children, sometimes there own. I don't know how it is where the rest of you live but living relatively close to D.C., I am fed up with having to deal with this kind of stuff. I don't put up with any sh** like that, like some others around here do, I refuse to let em walk all over me.
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Old February 23, 2005, 03:02 PM   #28
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Here is the almighty question. If it was YOU getting beaten, would you want someone to help? If your answer to that question is yes, and you would still be one of the people standing there watching, then I think it's sad. Lethal force would not have been my option at this point, but I sure would have put my butt on the line to try and help someone that would possibly have their life taken. I believe that all the firefighters, police officers, and military personel would agree with that. But then again, sacrifice is nothing new to these people, and we all take it for granted, just like those pitiful people watching another human being take blow after blow to his face and get dragged around on the floor. Pitiful.

Standing around watching makes you just as helpless as the guy getting beaten, and when you're helpless, you may as well be the next victim.
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Old February 23, 2005, 03:05 PM   #29
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I just watched this on a powerlifting forum that I visit, We all agreed that 90% of people would not have intervened. Society is weak, even in large numbers.

Pulling a gun could lead to bystanders being hit. Maybe a TFSP or some sort of Glazer type round would have been best in that situation, maybe even a low velocity ball ammo. But, who carries those other than gangstas and troops in war?

That guy is def bigger than me. I know for a fact that I would have intervenedm, as I have done it in the past. But, if I would have jumped in and no one else, I may have been beaten pretty badly too.
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Old February 23, 2005, 03:11 PM   #30
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Getting beaten is a risk I am willing to take versus having to try to sleep at night knowing that watched a man take the brunt of this violent assault. I am not a cow in a herd watching us get slaughtered 1 by 1.


Oh, and I am in no way a Michael Moore fan, in fact I detest his work, but in reference to the question from "Bowling for Colombine" on why America has more violent crimes and homicides than the rest of the world, It may be worth considering our attitude of indifference.
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Old February 23, 2005, 03:17 PM   #31
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Quote:
Here is the almighty question. If it was YOU getting beaten, would you want someone to help?
and

Quote:
Getting beaten is a risk I am willing to take versus having to try to sleep at night knowing that watched a man take the brunt of this violent assault.
Words to make one think. Ones that I agree with (sometimes, simple statements makes a person think even more).
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Old February 23, 2005, 03:30 PM   #32
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Quoting Bartlett: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

Sure doing something can lead to many bad things, getting beaten up for your efforts, a lawsuit or two, etc.

But its the right thing to do. And doing the right thing is not always the easy way out.
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Old February 23, 2005, 03:50 PM   #33
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Pulling a gun could lead to bystanders being hit.

Remember, 98% of the time in a successful defensive gun use, no shots are fired.

All it might have taken to save the victim six vicious and potentially deadly blows to the head could have been a draw, sight alignment, and a very loud "DON'T MOVE!!!"

As for hitting other people in the shop, you'd like to think that the cows standing around chewing their cud while this beating was going on would be smart enough to hit the deck when the Glock 30 cleared leather, but in any case it would be incumbent on the armed defender to ensure a clear backstop if at all possible. Perhaps dropping to a knee for an upward trajectory?

It seems to me that after the first blow, given the disparity of force evident in the situation, that the victim was in immediate, unavoidable danger of great bodily harm or death, and that's the criteria for use of deadly defensive force.
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Old February 23, 2005, 04:01 PM   #34
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I hope I would

have drawn and helped the guy. In my country, firing at the attacker would be legally ok. And I don't think that in any other juristiction you would be obliged to fight that bastard with your bare hands...

If the environement would allow for it, I would immediately fire a warning-shot before I talk to Mr. bad guy. A Fridge or stacks of cans etc would be a good bullet-catcher for that purpose. The blast sometimes helps clear a mind.

If no safe bullet-catcher would be availiable, I would say that a shot at the bad guy would be ok. If I had the guts for it - I honestly don't know. I once pulled to help others and it worked. No shots fired that time.
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Old February 23, 2005, 04:07 PM   #35
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"Remember, 98% of the time in a successful defensive gun use, no shots are fired."

Given the state of that felon's mind during this attack, I think this would have been a 2% situation. You probably could have been screaming your head off, and in that perp's rage he wouldn't have heard you. He was largely fixated on the guy he was pummeling.

Pepper spray and then blade would have been my choice.
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Old February 23, 2005, 04:08 PM   #36
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Remember guys, this is def a CQB situation. The perp is within 2 foot of you. All he needs to o is reach out and grab the gun. I say don't even yell. If he looks and remotely made a move, shoot.
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Old February 23, 2005, 04:11 PM   #37
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I don't agree with the warning shot idea. It comes from the same mental camp as shooting to wound. The obvious problem with a warning shot would be a ricochet harming an innocent bystander. If you're justified in using lethal force, you should (IMO) use lethal force and leave the theatrics to the movie people. That video clip was a wonderful example of why you should carry OC. It at least gives you a step between harsh language and lethal force.

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Old February 23, 2005, 04:14 PM   #38
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We'll get to the truly insulting part in a moment...

Unfortunately for most of the video it looks like "Jabba the hut" and his victim were blocking the doorway. Towards the tail end, "Jabba" appears to get back in line like no big deal happened.

Supposing one could get out the door without becoming victim #2, as you exit, you make a comment like "You stupid coward!" (or a more insulting comment) and proceed to step "lively", away from the door. When Jabba comes after you, draw your .45 ACP and proceed to put 5 center of mass. Explanation is very simple. You were legally armed, the BG was "beating a man to death", the close quarters of the shop precluded the use of a firearm, his size and weight indicated a high probability of needing multiple hits from a distance, so you lured him outside away from "innocent sheeple ..er ..bystanders" to stop his agression. You didn't run because he was in a "violent rage" and would likely injure another person or return to kill victim #1.

The really insulting part of this whole clip are the so-called "anchors" of the news. They express their horror that no one did anything, yet it is their profession and THEY THEMSELVES are at least partially to blame.

How many news reports have you seen where the media repeats the old socialist drumbeat "don't get involved, just call 911"? How many reports have you heard the media regurgitate the line "Having a gun just makes things worse" or "don't take the law into your own hands"?

And these two dolts have the audacity to be "shocked" that no one has done anything? Besides "Jabba the Blut" outweighing any TWO people in the shop, he obviously doesn't care about the consequences of hurting someone. The society the media has moulded is doing what the media has drummed into their heads over the last 30 years -- be passive, don't resist, just call 911! Meanwhile a man may die or be disabled for life.

Prosecutors who would zealously go after a CHL holder for luring the BG outside and then shooting him also are to blame. They are the type that would "twist" the situation to claim "you caused the threat to your own life by making him chase after you, knowing you were armed and could kill him at your whim". DA's like these we don't need. Nor the police chiefs who support them or the politicians who endorse them.

Okay... <deep breath> -- rant off!
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Old February 23, 2005, 04:18 PM   #39
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Warning shot

i don't want to hijack this excellent thread so I started an extra thread on warning shots:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...77#post1494777

Quote:
the old socialist drumbeat "don't get involved, just call 911"?
that must be US-Socialist. In Austria (Europe) where I live, it's even legal to shoot a rubber running away with you valuable or a carjacker driving away with your car in the back, and that's good. Our criminal code by the way was drafted during a social democrat governing period...
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Old February 23, 2005, 06:34 PM   #40
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Quote:
it's even legal to shoot a rubber running away with you valuable
I'm sorry man, know it was a misspelling but the visual image cracked me up.
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Old February 23, 2005, 06:47 PM   #41
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Para, if I am correct, in Texas it is legal to use lethal force to protect property .

BTW, where is Europe are you. I didn't think guns were allowed to be carried by many places in Europe.
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Old February 23, 2005, 07:08 PM   #42
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I read all of the postings before I watched the film. After watching the film, and not in hindsite, I'll tell you, I don't know! Maybe! If I was the same age as that guy in the white shirt who appears to be right on top of the action, I may have taken a punch from behind for no other reason than distract him, and hope that others would step in.

Or maybe a choke hold from behind, if he broke it then run like hell, if he chases me, he won't catch me and if he does, then I use my pistol.

Fact is I don't know, and in my opinion no one really does until things like that happen, and we're put to the test. Another fact is, I can't run anymore, so I don't know.
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Old February 23, 2005, 08:10 PM   #43
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coworkers

Ironically a coworker of mine during lunch saw this video on cnn.com and a bunch of my coworkers ("CW") were returning from lunch and he them (3 women and 3 men).

Me: So would you be like the bystanders and do nothing?

CW: We'd call the police after the assailant left.

Me: Well what if the assailint decided to start stomping on the victim's head which could easily cause death.

CW: Well what if it was a robbery!

Me: Even more reason to help out if it was a clear cut robbery!

CW: I mean what if the guy was armed like with a gun!

Me: Then shoot him first.

CW: Not all of us want to carry a gun.

Me: Well who has pepperspray?

Turns out all the women had pepperspray but none of the men.

CW: But I'm not sure how to use it.

Me: You never even test fired your pepperspray how'd you know it'd work?

CW: Well I'd use it only in emergencies so never thought of testing it out.

Me: OK a big angry guy is beating to death an uncoscious innocent victim and you don't think that's an emergency?

CW: I just don't think any of us would know what to do so we'd just call the cops after the assailant left.

Me: Why after the assailant left?

CW [looks at me in disbelief]: So I won't get attacked while calling the cops of course!

Conclusion:

I was the only person other than my boss (who is an avid hunter and former wrestler) that seemed to agree that even if the innocent victim was being stomped to death the proper course of action is to wait until the bad guy is gone then call the cops.

My coworkers are a bunch of accountants, financial analysts, and lawyers professions which are not known for physical bravery but probably have the typical attitude of an average american.

No wonder terrorists who worked and schooled with average americans thought they could get away with scaring us out of our national interets. The average american will not fight for fellow americans. For thousands of years people have been responsible for their own physical safety yet today the average american relies on strangers who make $20k to $30k a year (cops and soldiers) for their own physical safety.

Talking to my coworkers was a disheartening experience.

The hard question are:

1) If you were innocent and being beat on would you want other people to help? If you answered yes but were unwilling to help then what does that say about you?

2) Sure you aren't GOD and you don't know all the details but what if you were an off duty cop? Would you draw to try to diffuse the situation? Cops don't know ALL the details either. Sure most of us aren't cops but why rely on cops in a situation that appears to you and most reasonable people that the innocent man's life is in danger. What you know at that time is what you will be judged on that after the fact. And at the time of the incident it appeared very likely that the victim was innocent and in danger of severe bodily injury.
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Old February 23, 2005, 08:36 PM   #44
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hey guys what about bonnie ?

Howdy,
While I have no doubt that a lot of people would have interveined with little to no hesitation, most people would have still stood there in awe. Most people do not have the training or expirence to deal with that type of situation. Unfortunately we also live in a society where defending yourself can get you in a whole lot of legal trouble as well. Picture this: when the cops arrive on this situation and maybe they witness 4 or 5 white guys fighting 1 black guy, there's a good chance that everyone involved ends up spending the night in jail. In my heart I believe most people want to do the right thing, but how many people are willing to go to jail or deal with the legal drama over the principle. From my own example if I were to go to jail there's a STRONG possibility of me losing my job i.e.( my family's source of income). Is it worth the risk?
Another thing to consider let's assume that you were able to draw on and stop the BG,( lets call him Clyde). While you are focused on Clyde and the victim, the person whom started the whole incident (call her Bonnie) has now drawn on and fired upon you. I think everone that has posted on this thread would agree that Bonnie would definately start a whole lot of $hit if someone were messing with "her man" or "her baby's daddy".
I totally applaud and respect those that posted they could not stand by and watch the victim get beat without doing something. I just feel that in the 20 or 30 seconds the actual event took place, most people are incapable of formulating and executing a plan that went beyond dialling 911 on the phone.
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Old February 23, 2005, 08:42 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zulustyle
I just feel that in the 20 or 30 seconds the actual event took place, most people are incapable of formulating and executing a plan that went beyond dialling 911 on the phone.
That is very true. The event did not last more than 30 seconds. How long would it take to think this through. 1. You need to realize that someone is getting beaten. 2. You need to realize that the man's life is then in danger. 3. Then you need to decide if you should use your gun and then when you do decide, will you warn him or shoot immediately. Not to mention, he was moving around quite a bit, would you even have a shot? 4. You choose not to use the gun, you begin to wrestle with the guy. Hope he doesn't see the gun or get ahold of it.

Lots of things to think about. Hell, you could finally make a choice of how to help and the guy is already leaving.
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Old February 23, 2005, 08:54 PM   #46
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There was another thread about this somewhere, but I'll say it here too.

No matter how big you are, or how big he is, someone should have done something. I don't care if I ended up getting beat like the guy. I am a man, and I will not stand idly by and watch someones life be potentialy taken.

Could I even live with myself if I had stood there like a coward and done nothing? This nation has turned into a bunch of pacifistic panseys. When I was growing up, you did what you could to avoid trouble, but as men and american citizens we should have enough guts to do what is right, damn the consequences. It makes me want to puke to see those people stand there and watch that. Its discusting. Its deplorable. Its just plain sick.

I remember a somewhat similar situation when I has 13-14 years old. Me and a buddy were fishing. Two bigger guys, about 16-17 came down, and started getting stupid. Told us to give them all our fishing stuff or they were gonna drown us or something. Of course, I refused, and they came towards me. I whipped the crap out of one of them with my fishing pole. (God I still hope it hurt) and then proceeded to get the ever loving crap kicked out of me. They beat me for what seemed like forever, busted me up real good, then took all our stuff and left. My buddy just stood there (like those people in the pizza place) the WHOLE TIME. Well, needless to say, when I finally got gathered up and to my feet, when he came over to ask if I was okay, I blasted him in the mouth with all my might, for being such a stupid sissy and not helping me.....
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Old February 23, 2005, 08:57 PM   #47
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Wow, that video is unbelievable, it's hard to say what you could do when things happen that fast, but I always carry a little West German spring type telescoping police baton in my back pocket when I am legally carrying my Glock 33, just in case of a situation where deadly force isn't called for but I have the need to defend myself. I think if I was quick enough, that big fellow would have been picking his teeth off the floor and had a few lacerations to be stitched up, not to mention welts all over his massive body.
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Old February 23, 2005, 09:11 PM   #48
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Just a thought. I don't know how other states CCW laws are, but here in FL, its a CCW (concealed carry weapon permit), so you can carry an asp, etc legally. I would carry a gun, but I would also carry an asp. Just hit him really good on his knee, and it will shatter, that guy wont be up and movin any more. If he kept at it, just take more easy shots. You may not think that an ASP is a great weapon, but it gives you an alternative to shooting someone (which in the PR world looks bad, even if its a good shoot). Hell, if you felt like it, knock him upside the head (will cause death/unconciousness) if you don't feel comfortable with a different take down. Using one of those also won't introduce a firearm into the equation, which would be good. Some people are immune to the effects of mace, but not to broken bones, they all act the same. ASP's (extendable baton) are vicious little buggars, but I think worth heir weight in gold in certian situations (close combat v. distance)
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Old February 23, 2005, 09:18 PM   #49
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Howdy
D. T. I respect your opinion and do not doubt your sincerity. However consider this : lets say you have'nt been in a fight in over 10 years, this thug ape probally fights often and he is not alone. Would you be willing to walk into a situation that you can't win. Rest assured the second you jumped on this guy regardless of your fighting abilities or size this guy ain't alone, actually he has someone who cares for him which REALLY works to his advantage and makes the situation even more dangerous.
I think the responses to this thread would have been different if the victim was a spouse,child or friend and you were there with them. I think the responses would have been diffrent if a person was there with 3 or 4 of their friends,co-workers, or brothers/sisters in arms. Keep in mind that after the first punch from the BG the victim could not defend himself much less help you out when you jumped in. I feel that my response at the age of 25 vice 35 would have been different as well.
I am fully aware of the right and wrong of this situation,however right and wrong compared to the consequences of me being laid out, f'd-up,killed, or incarserated when I am the sole provider of my family weigh HEAVILY on my reaction to the situation.... that's a lot to consider in 30 seconds.
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Old February 23, 2005, 11:08 PM   #50
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I do want to point something out...

THis guy did nothing to protect his own self. He wasnt knocked out on the first few punches. He did not try and fight back AT ALL. He did nothing. I could see if he was knocked out on the first punch. He should at least tried to run. He just stood there and let the guy hit him.

Now if he had no will to fight for his own self, how can he sit there and say..."All those people there, and they did nothing"

If he had been standing in a different spot he would have been one of those sheep not doing a damn thing.

Even though Im not a big guy I would punch and kick as hard as I could at his throat, genitals, and try and run. THis guy should be ****** at himself for not being prepared.
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