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Old February 23, 2005, 12:47 AM   #1
Metellus
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Would you get involved?

http://www.wkyc.com/video/player.asp...id=30596&bw=hi

Watch the link first. Then imagaine yourself as one of the bystanders. What would you do if you had your CCW with you?

To sum it up a white guy was standing in the back of a long line at a what looks like a pizza parlor. Then a big black woman cuts in line and the white guy says to his fiance on the cell that he'll be a little longer since somebody just cut in line. The black woman gets angry and starts yelling. The manager tells her to get out and she then spits at the manager and yells for her boyfriend a big black guy on probation. The black guy then assults the white guy with a couple very powerful punches and keeps hitting him after the white guy goes out.

I'd actually do something. I'd yell at the big black guy to stop it and if he walked toward me I'd start shooting. It'd be hard to miss that guy. Although I was not 100% certain what started the incident I'd know that after the guy who was hit was not even moving there was no reason for the big black guy to keep pounding him and putting the unconscious man's life in danger.

The reason is a couple years ago I was being robbed at knife point on my throat once in the middle of a busy sidewalk. And several well dressed people walked by and did nothing not even call the cops. I distinctly remember a well dressed couple walk by and the woman saying "is that guy getting robbed" and the man saying "it is not our business let's keep going".

At the very least I would have hoped SOMEBODY would have called the cops on my behalf. At that moment I promised myself never to be one of those stunned bystanders who is "not involved".
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Old February 23, 2005, 12:54 AM   #2
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It really heats me up to see all those people just stand there. From a law standpoint tho', I am really not sure if it would be ok to pull a gun in that situation. IMO, as soon as the guy went to the floor I would pull. One punch, ok, ya made your point. After that I see it is a life and death situation that warrants a possible lethal force!!!

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Old February 23, 2005, 01:07 AM   #3
chris in va
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That guy could easily have been killed from those punches. That was a HUGE guy.

I'm not gonna say anything until a few more guys post on this.
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Old February 23, 2005, 01:16 AM   #4
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You know ... there are some situations where it's hard to figure out who the bad guy is ... but this isn't one of them. Although the dude doing the punching was one BIG, MEAN SOB there were plenty of people there to intercede. It's just too bad we're all trained to be sheep and not resist as a group.

The bad part of CCW is that as bad as it hurts to get put on the flooer and punched and kicked and sent to the hospital, assuming they don't kill or maim you (which you never know until after it's over) it's generally better than a few years in jail if a jury doesn't see it your way. And it's not like the assailant didn't eventually get more time in the big house.

For me ... first I'd try to intercede with some words and trying to calm the situation down ... then if he lit into me I'd try to get away ... and if I couldn't AND I had an opportunity to do so (i.e. I'm not too dazed from the head shots or he doesn't have me wrapped up) I'd draw as a last resort.

But people in that state of mind are not raional or smart enough to back down, so if you draw you're probably going to shoot -- and if you don't shoot quick enough he may get your gun away and then you got a ****** OFF, irrational mean SOB with your own gun.

I've always assumed that drawing and firing will be pretty much the same motion. If someone's within 8 feet of me and in that state of mind, I don't want to trust them to not get my gun away.
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Old February 23, 2005, 01:18 AM   #5
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I felt the pain from that first punch! The guy looked ok in his interview tho'.
That's why I always tell the ol' lady to keep her mouth shut (she can't stand the way people act and has a tendency to "speak her mind" in those types of situations!). She almost got me in a fight one night at Dick's Sporting Goods with her big mouth! This guy got ****** cause I "momentarily" entered the crosswalk with my car while he was entering the store. Well, he shook his head and mumble a bit and of course "bat ears" heard it (It was raining and rather than have my woman and 6 month old daughter "get wet" I pulled up to the door so we could load the baby and not have her get sick in the process) They get into a shouting match and decided to start cursing at her. SOOO, I had to open my mouth (no CCW at the time but I did have the 870 in the car cause I was hunting that day). We shouted back and forth and he continued to get closer but nothing came out of it (thank god). Just goes to show how "ignorant" some people can be!!!
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Old February 23, 2005, 01:31 AM   #6
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Quote:
The bad part of CCW is that as bad as it hurts to get put on the flooer and punched and kicked and sent to the hospital, assuming they don't kill or maim you (which you never know until after it's over) it's generally better than a few years in jail if a jury doesn't see it your way. And it's not like the assailant didn't eventually get more time in the big house.
I think I may have read on this forum or another about a guy that was involved in a road rage incident. Guy came up to his car and whooped up on him (the guy getting whopped was armed at the time). He let the guy beat him for a little and the guy walked away. The guy doing the whooping than decided to go back to the truck for some more at which time he did draw his weapon. In the video, the victim attempted to leave (step 1). The suspect than followd to continue the whooping. Right there IMHO would call for at least a draw and stern warning. If he continues on, than shoot. I also have a feeling from the looks of the video that these people ma have been in a situation like this before!!!
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Old February 23, 2005, 01:57 AM   #7
mikikanazawa
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You guys gotta see "The Boondock Saints." It's a movie about the indifference of good men being almost equal to the misdeeds of evil men.
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Old February 23, 2005, 02:25 AM   #8
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Quote:
You guys gotta see "The Boondock Saints." It's a movie about the indifference of good men being almost equal to the misdeeds of evil men.
I've also heard it said ...

Quote:
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and good will, shepherds the weak through the valley of the darkness. For he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know I am the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon you.
I've actually been saying that s**t for years, and if you ever hear me say it ...

But seriously ... in Colorado you need the same level of threat (life threatening) to brandish a weapon as to fire it. So if you've drawn it means you're in a situation where shooting is (hopefully) acceptable.
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Old February 23, 2005, 03:38 AM   #9
riverkeeper
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What to do here?

Except for one overweight guy, the BG outweighs everyone else by 100 pounds, is violent and will aggressively and relentlessly attack without mercy. Seven smashes to the head on the victim!

Unless you have good company health care, a lot of sick leave and AFLC, jumping in here could ruin your life. Most of us haven’t been in or seen a fight like this in person and we can’t really see the severity of what is happening to the victim.

Generally you can but some states differ, I understand, on the extent to which you can protect someone else with deadly force. Later, the prosecutor or jury, based on the eyewitnesses, will tell you if deadly force was in order.

If you decide to go for it with a gun – MAYBE something like this – Yell to the BG and set up your ‘Fence’ and draw – “Stop Now .. You are killing the guy.”… ETC, hoping to stop or divert. This is not good stuff in a crowded room.

Or drop a chair on the guy’s head and try to run out.

Doubt the BG would’ve got 4 years wo the video – reminds me of the kids who almost beat a pizza guy to death with baseball bats around here 10 years ago and were sentenced to 12 mo (I recall) on an island with food and shelter provided – served about 3 or 4.

My wife has also written confrontational checks which she expects me to cash -- that's one of the reasons she does not carry.
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Old February 23, 2005, 04:59 AM   #10
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Howdy,
I don't think that any of us would disagree with how truly horrible a situation that was. Unfortunately situations like that tend to totally paralyze people with fear. I do not blame the people for not interveining because unless you had the skill and and the will to take the BG out , the BG would have taken you out. Somehow I do not see that thug sucumbing to pepper spray. Let us not forget about the girlfriend in this situation, she definately seems the type that would'nt hesitate to use a weapon on the person that would have rendered aid to the victim.
I all honesty if I would have been in that same line with my daughter and wife, my best and only course of action would have been able to phone the cops and give a good description of the assailnts.
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Old February 23, 2005, 06:11 AM   #11
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Howdy,
I just showed the clip to my co-workers and it sparked a very heated discussion amongst us. I still stand by my previous posts although I puts me in the minority of opinions.
A few people said here at work as well as on the board that they would reason or talk to th BG to difuse the situation. Well think about it this BG : on probation, sucker punched, almost killed a guy, with no provocation, over a pizza. News flash.... reasoning ain't going to work on this guy!!
There were people at work that said that they would take out a knee or something on the BG while he was distracted punching the victim.
Yeah them and Bruce Lee, the point is unless you are fluent in martial/combat arts you would have wound next to the other guy on the floor.
In reading the original question a lot of people said they would have drawn on the BG and blasted him if he continued to pose a threat. The only real problem I have with that is that in a crowed resturant, at close combat quarters,... Do you have a clean shot ? I'll probally be the subject of much ridicule but I think the question is valid. The BG came on the victim fast and hard, he did'nt even have time to put his guard up. If the BG now charges you will you be in position to shoot without hitting a bystander ?
It's easy to armchair quaterback this situation, but I feel the vast majority of thinking, rational,non-violent,non-carrying,non-martial/combat arts trained people would have reacted the same way if the situation were to happen again.
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Old February 23, 2005, 09:26 AM   #12
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Metellus, the scenario you suggest based on the footage doesn't jive. You have interjected the aspects of omnipotence and limited activity into the situation that nobody present at the time would have. As patrons in the store, nobody new that the woman would call in her boyfriend and that he was on probation. Also, while the beating did go down, nobody knew if this was the only action or part of some bigger event. No doubt as everyone in the room was fixated on the beating, another situation could have unfolded easily if the beating was meant as a distraction. The problem is, in the real world, you don't always have all the insight present at the time that hindsight gives you after the fact.

So you would have yelled at the guy and if he walked toward you then you would have shot him? Interesting. So if you would have been in a position between the bad guy and the door and the bad guy was attempting to leave as he did, then you would have shot him?

So why didn't the folks in the store help the downed customer? Simple. Beyond what was mentioned previously about being paralyzed with fear, none of the customers were anywhere near that guy's size. Plus, they were all individuals, no teams or partners present. None had any reason to believe that if they intervened that they would get help from anybody else and as such, they would run the risk of getting the crap beat out of them like the customer with the phone.
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Old February 23, 2005, 09:30 AM   #13
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You've got some great points, Zulu. If I was there with my family I probably would push them in a corner, get in front of them, and then just make sure I can give a good description to the cops.

BTW -- for the guy who got whupped -- it looks like it happened so fast and he was incapacitated so quickly that even if he'd been opening carrying in a quick draw holster he wouldn't have had a chance to get it out.
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Old February 23, 2005, 09:32 AM   #14
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Very disturbing Video. I guess because I am one of those trained in the martial arts (kickboxing since I was 13...) this BG might be strong, but he is pitifully slow. I would not draw my CC, I would forcefully tell him to stop, and he if did not then I would take out his knee, nose or a kidney shot. Can probably hit him six or seven before he could take a swing at me, which by the slow speed of his punches, could easily be evaded. (by a trained MA)

Meanwhile drawing in that situation with a crowd like that would be too dangerous.
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Old February 23, 2005, 12:32 PM   #15
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Ok first off, my blood is BOILING!

I am glad you posted this, this is just unbelievable to me. This raises some really good questions because this is a situation that we are ALL most likely to be caught in someday. I in fact almost had this same scenario happen to me in a after hours food place in Philly. One guy started with my friend, and I came in and reasoned with him, I was like hey man, you want to go in front of us thats cool, but you will have to give me some of your fries cause Im starvin. He laughed and was like, you know what I like you dude, your friend is a punk though. This guy was just all talk.

That said, talking to this guy in the video would only make the situation worse. So your question what would I have done? I watched the video again, and from I can see they are blocking the door. Thats the first problem. Everyone should have gotten out of there, but it seems like they didnt have enough space to go by him.

I would have wished that I would have pepper spray on me, cause I would have definitely sprayed him. If I had my firearm...whoah, I would have to say I would not draw although I would be wanting to the whole time. I would not have yelled at the guy saying "get off him" cause that aint gonna do anything.

Man its tough, that guy was huge. I think that even if I pulled out my weapon and said stop punching him or I will shoot, he just would have kept punching him. Then what? If that was a girl being hit, as weird as my logic sounds, I would have drawn because I feel some inborn thing to protect women at all costs. Otherwise, I am sorry to say I would have just gone to the far corner and called 911 as someone else said.
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Old February 23, 2005, 12:41 PM   #16
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This brings another point. In a potential fight. Say you are a regular sized guy like me. I am 5'8", 180 lbs. Im not skinny but Im also not a big guy with muscles. So, if you think you are about to get swung at by a big guy like this who you know will do some damage, what do you do? Do you wait for him to swing? And risk being knocked out?

Or do you draw and back away before he hits you? Its a very tough one. I mean Derius T is a big guy, and he diffused a similar situation at a McDonalds. You cant just draw your gun in a crowded McDonalds? Or can you? I mean, is pulling out your gun and squashing the threat worth the reprocussions?

You will definitely have the poilce called on you. Any of you LEO's out there have any advice?

I do notice one thing that guy did not prepare himself at all. I am sorry to say, but I see this happen in white vs black fights all the time, the white guy will sever eye contact and be submissive and look away. I definitely know NOT to do this. I would have backed away as soon as I sensed the threat to put as much space between me and him as possible. If he came at me while backing away while I am saying leave me alone or I will shoot. If I couldnt back away anymore, I would draw. And if he came at me to punch I would fire.

Im not in the business of fist fights anymore. I have gotten in plenty of them when I was younger. There is just too many variables, too much risk or serious injury.

I mean, how do you know you will just get a punch that gives you a bruise, and you will be just fine in a couple days. You dont know.
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Old February 23, 2005, 12:58 PM   #17
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The smartest response would depend upon the CCW and self-defense laws of your state, buy my personal feeling is that when I made the decision to start carrying, I took personal responsibility for not only my own safety, but that of my neighbors, and those innocents around me.
If I had seen this altercation from the beginning, I would absolutely draw my weapon and command the attacker to stop. My state's defense laws authorize the use of deadly force (including a draw) to prevent death, serious injury, or sexual assault (glad they put that in there) to ones self or another person.

The possible responses by the attacker are 1)to desist, 2)to continue the beating (unlikely, hard to ignore a drawn firearm, assuming he wasn't hopped up on something), or 3) to turn and attack me, at which point he would be shot to ground, so long as there is a clear field of fire.

I'll be damned if I'm going to just stand by and let a fellow citizen be killed or permanently injured by a thug, when I have the power to help, simply to avoid potential legal troubles for myself.

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Old February 23, 2005, 01:00 PM   #18
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Damn right I would have got involved! The guy getting sucker punched is one thing, getting beat down while those jokers stand 2' away watching it as if they had a ticket is utter nonsense. If you're asking what I would've done: I would've tried my damnest to take that guy down (as someone mentioned: strikes to vital organs). I think the problem is many people see themselves as the guy getting beat on, instead having the mindset that YOU are going to put that BG guy down. Yeah, you may take some licks. So what. If you were that poor schmuck getting his teeth fed to him, woudn't you want someone to do something? As was stated, indifference is the worst crime of all that day. And if you were CCW, with a guy that size who has already demonstrated his propensity for violence, I believe you would have a strong legal argument for shooting him.
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Old February 23, 2005, 01:29 PM   #19
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I would pull my .45acp 1911 on him and tell him to stop and lay on the floor. Then have the pizza counter guy call 911. If the BG make a flinch at coming for me "BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM,BOOM". One less BG to worry about in this world.

However, if everyone in the pizza shop had a peice then all would pull out there peicees and the fighting stops immediatly.
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Old February 23, 2005, 01:40 PM   #20
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I blame the governments (fed and states) for what is happening now. People are afraid to get involved because they very well could be the ones going to jail, along with this guy, and being put into the same detaintion(sp) cell.

But, I would like to believe that I would only be stuck with fear for a split second and then would have tried to help. I am 6' tall and about 150lbs. So, I am that weakling on the beach getting sand kicked in my face.

Someone like that BG should have been in jail until he either had passed all types of anger management classes or been medicated to control his tendencies.
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Old February 23, 2005, 02:04 PM   #21
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After the 1st punch, I would have been on the guy that was throwing punches. I have been in similar situations before, and I refuse to just stand there and watch someone take a beating like that. I am all of 5'11" and 180 lbs(solid muscular build). The big guy outweighed me by a good bit, but to just stand there and watch is assanine and intolerable. Shooting him is one thing, getting physically involved in another. I feel confident that I could hold my own in a situation like this, and If I couldn't, then I would hope that there were more people like myself standing around. The same principle of invoked fear applies here as did on the planes that hit the Twin Towers. Few aggressors can keep many locked into a passive state by the invocation of fear. People tend to have the mindset of "at least it isn't me", when in reality it is. It is that mindframe that perpetuates and feeds this aggressive behavior.
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Old February 23, 2005, 02:07 PM   #22
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Rule 5.3

1) I would have gotten involved.
2) I carry 2oz of Fox 5.3. In that environment, everyone would have gotten contaminated, but that attack had to be stopped. He could have easily killed that guy.
3) If the OC didn't stop him, and that guy is a moose and probably a hardened career criminal who was certainly in a rage, then it probably would have gone to extreme close quarters and a blade. There were too many people around and that situation was too fluid to go to guns.
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Old February 23, 2005, 02:13 PM   #23
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As Jeff Snyder said, "A nation of cowards."

It is obvious from the way the victim's head flies back from the force of the first punch that all the subsequent punches are fully capable of maiming or killing him. It is also obvious that the attacker is in a blind rage, waaaay beyond being reasoned with.

If I were there, I would have yelled "STOP!" one time and then went for the attacker's eyes with my pepper spray, which would be in my left hand; my SIG P220 would have been in my right hand, just in case. If he dropped and started screaming, would have high-tailed it out of there. I'm sure that his "woman" would have to be sprayed too, given her belligierent attitude.

That having been said, I would have probably been the one under attack - when the "woman" cut in line, I would have politely buy firmly informed her that the line begins to the rear and that she needs to wait her turn like everyone else.

It is disgustingly evident from watching the video that our culture has produced a herd of impotent, neutered, no-load sheeple wearing pants and masquerading as men. The males in the video do not have the will or the means to stop the thug from beating the victim half to death.

I am not advocating going toe-to toe with someone who can kill you with his bare hands; I am advocating being always armed so that when faced with such a situation, you can do something about it. And I'm advocating alwats carrying pepper spray as well as your defensive handgun so that you have an intermediate option before bringing to bear deadly force.

Also, the 400+ pound thug is a ringing endorsement of carrying a BIG BORE defensive arm; I would not want to fire on that behemoth with anything smaller than .45ACP, 10mm, or .45 "Long" Colt or .44 Special +P!! Little guns are okay for little thugs, but we don't get to choose our attackers!

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Old February 23, 2005, 02:26 PM   #24
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Aside from pepper spray, there's also the intermediate option of threatening deadly force. I'm sure we all know that 98% of successful defensive gun uses don't involve actually firing the gun or killing the attacker.

And deadly defensive force was certainly justified in this case, as others have observed. It was obvious that the victim was in immediate, unavoidable danger of great bodily harm at the very least, if not death.
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Old February 23, 2005, 02:30 PM   #25
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That guy is a career criminal that was on a beat down rampage. He wouldn't have hesitated long enough to consider a threat, provided that he heard/saw it.
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