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Old October 19, 1998, 04:38 PM   #1
Kodiac
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Name one full auto gun that has been there more often when the door has been kicked in, or a SRT team responding, or warrents served.
The MP 5 is like a badge almost... it is like - required for any SWAT team. And will probably remain so for the next 20 years.
Any one think they know a gun that can knock down this king of the hill?
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Old October 19, 1998, 10:22 PM   #2
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Yeah, the Colt 9mm AR.

It's starting to gain popularity among the entry/tactical teams out there, because it's cheaper, more accurate (supposedly), uses the same training, and streamlines the logistics.

Unfortunate as it is, it's happening.

Spark
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Old October 20, 1998, 01:15 AM   #3
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I've tried many types of SMGs (even the Chinese closed bolt Type 79 and the open bolt suppressed Type 64). My own biased is reflected in that the most time I've ever had with one is the HK MP5 in .40 S&W.

Right now, Glock is developing their own SMG and H&K hasn't been resting on its laurels either.

The H&K MP5 will be replaced perhaps by a 4th Gen. SMG. Ideally, it will fire from a closed bolt, have a selective rate of fire (slow being around 600-650 rpm and fast 800-900 rpm) so that it could serve two different missions.
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Old October 20, 1998, 08:49 AM   #4
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Yeah, Colts sub AR is gaining popularity, but that gain has really slowed down since its been realized that .223 is just as good up close and personal, with out over penetration. And the AR family can be had for much less money... thats a good bet.

GLOCK's SMG - or Carbine as I've heard it was going to be - will be, I am sure an almost instant success. I have not even seen a sketch of this gun... no one I know has either. Some guys at the local range joke it will look like a hipoint carbine... this might not be far of the mark. We should be able to expect magazine sharing with some Glock pistols, like they Ruger Tactical Rifle... 9 or 40 cal... They should be very good.
H&K - ah, they give me good vibes... What ever they are working on has got to be most excelent. The G36K would be a very good place to start. The G11 was almost perfect. They should redo it and chamber it for .224BOZ Which I bet will be the new caliber of choice for people wanting .223 power, but in a pistol size package. I wish I had a crystal ball.
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Old October 20, 1998, 09:37 AM   #5
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Kodiak,

Check out and fire a few squirts through the FN P-90 when you have a chance. Small & light like a SMG but it has a zippy 5.7mm bullet which makes it ideal for an entry weapon. It's easy to use either handed (bottom ejection), very low recoil, very high capacity (50 rounds - exceeded only by Calico with their 100 round mags). The only thing the jury's out on is the performance of its diminuitive bullet (which will penetrate a vest).
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Old October 20, 1998, 10:51 AM   #6
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4V50: Ah yes, the P-90... The very gun I had in mind when I started this thread. As good as this gun is - it is so expensive I don't think it will have any market saturation as the other guns mentioned. It will remain one of the best ever - like the PSG1 rifle, yeah its the best, but at 10,000 dollars not even a consideration. It's like talking about fast cars - Yeah the McClaren F1 i sthe fastest... or THRUST II the fastest - but we are in the realm of SALEEN MUSTANGS, FORMULA FIREBIRDS, LT1 Vettes, and the cars that upon great sacrifice can be obtainable for both citizens and our respective LE agencies.
Man, I want to try out that P-90... I bet it is more fun to shoot than a Skorpion (and that has my vote of the number one fun gun). I got out of the service and LE just when things are getting interesting! DOH!
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Old October 20, 1998, 01:41 PM   #7
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Go to a trade show where there's cops. LE distributors always brings out their toys (even though most agencies don't have much money anymore - except for drug confiscation). I've shot the FN P90 and it was FUN. Unfortunately, it was demonstration day and we didn't get to play with moving targets with it.
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Old October 20, 1998, 03:13 PM   #8
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When and where is the next one? I would love to go to one. In fact , I love going to all kinds of trade shows... computers, even office supply shows - went to one and haven't payed for a pen since then, they gave away so many, got a new computer desk for free too. Went to a restraunt trade show... sampled so much food, it was great... Do they give you free guns to take home and show the other kid son the block? 8-)
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Old October 20, 1998, 06:47 PM   #9
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The MP5 is undoubtedly king of the hill. The M16/9mm is probably the only other gun that is really out there in any serious quantities (that's worth much). The M16/9mm has been used by Marine FAST, DEA, and DOE, among others. I have both and MP5 and a M16/9mm, and I definitely prefer the MP5. It's smoother on full auto, where the M16/9mm has a very pogo-stick feel due to the movement of the heavy tungsten buffer. The M16/9mm also has lousy mags -- they're a bear to load by hand, and the rounds tend to fly out of them if dropped. The mags are typically less reliable than those of the MP5. Even Colt's demo guns have been seen choking and puking. The main attraction of the Colt is that it's cheaper than the MP5, and agencies issuing M16's don't have much retraining to do.

The 10mm/.40 MP5's represent some minor enhancements - new mags and a bolt hold open, but don't truly represent a next generation of MP5. Like the hard to beat M16, it'll take a really major improvement to cause countless agencies to dump their MP5's in favor of something new. FWIW, some teams are even going to M4's or CAR-15's instead of their subguns, thus rendering certain points of this argument totally moot.
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Old October 20, 1998, 09:04 PM   #10
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Given the stats that favor 5.56 compared to 9mm for overpenetration and the like, I can see why. Better accuracy at long ranges, and the fact that one weapon can be used in more situations are other convincing arguments for using using the M4 as well.

Glad to see you here Hilton!

Spark
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Old October 20, 1998, 10:09 PM   #11
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Hilton & Spark:
Have you guys seen the new Hornady TAP ammo? It is new to the market and I have been out of the business for a while now - What is the general feeling of these URBAN rounds? I would assume they are highly favorable. I have my own AR and would like to obtain them if they are worth it. How much better would they be than a VX Varmit round? I take it you guys are still sworn...
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Old October 20, 1998, 11:28 PM   #12
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Kodiak,

The one I went to was the anti-terrorist show, TREXPO. Generally these shows have a range day where you can go out and play with toys. It's also done at the IALEFI ATC & RTC and I suspect at the ASLET conventions. I'm not sure about SOF in Las Vegas (aka Lost Wages). Put the black BDU uniform back on (if you're authorized) and waltz in. Sorry, I don't have the dates at hand. Suggest you pick up some LE magazine if you want the dates.

Hilton is right about the POGO stick feel of the 9mm Colt SMG. I can't help but grin everything I shoot the thing and hear the "boing" of the spring. A Colt LE distributor did tell me that they've corrected the magazine problem, but I can't see how and they're still a bear to reload.

The MP5 is much easier to load (in any caliber). As a sidenote on the MP5 in 9mm, except for training, avoid those straight stick mags. They were replaced with the curved ones which are more reliable. I've seen them jam too often on the range (which is better than in an actual confrontation).
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Old October 21, 1998, 11:09 AM   #13
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Thanks for the tips.
The straight mags being unreliable is new to me. I never had any problems with the ones I used... but then again I used the curved ones too, never had a glitch with either.
Lets see... HK glitches... come to think of it, never had a glitch with H&K stuff. Wait. I did have a Tritium insert fall out of the rear sight of one of my P-7s while I was at a pistol class. Had it replaced for free in under 3 minutes. Hey, that shows HK is customer friendly - thats a positive...
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Old October 23, 1998, 11:54 AM   #14
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Had a Colt 9mm a few years back, before all this assault weapons ban crap. Guess what? Sold it, preferred the way a HK MP5 felt. A friend had an SP89 sent to a custom house and had it modified to the format of an MP5 with fixed stock. I really like the way it handles and shoots.
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Old October 23, 1998, 11:56 AM   #15
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Since we're on the topic, anyone know anything about a possible MP10, i.e. MP5 in 10mm. I think the 10mm would be a great round for this subgun.
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Old October 23, 1998, 03:01 PM   #16
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Mute,

Did you like Clancey's book

mp5/10 was designed for the fbi, don't know if it is still in production or not. It is an mp5 with a few improvements chambered in 10mm. Thats about all I know.

Jason
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Old October 23, 1998, 07:34 PM   #17
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Mute,

Haven't shot an MP5/10. But H&K claims that it can consistently hit a man sized target at 275 yards (single shot, not burst). I also know that it uses the same clear plastic straight stick magazine the MP5/40 does.

H&K is one of those types of companies that will produce something for a few months, and then shut down for the rest of the year. They've reached production quotas and then it's unemploymentl in Oberndorf. Went there a couple of years back and the cops there told me its dead (it was). Even Mauser (downstream - err, river) was dead quiet.


[This message has been edited by 4V50 (edited 10-24-98).]
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Old October 23, 1998, 09:15 PM   #18
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The MP5/10, which was apparently incorrectly designated in Rainbow Six as the MP10, is still currently in production from HK. The guns include a new translucent gray polymer magazine design which is easy to take down, but somewhat bulkier than the 9mm versions. The prototypes showed a lug system that allowed the magazines to be assembled together, ala "jungle clipping", but the production models lack that feature. The standard HK dual mag clamp is available for the 10mm/.40 mags. The MP5/10 also boasts a bolt hold open on the last shot, much like the M16. Reloading can be completed by using the bolt catch lever instead of the usual drill of bolt back, mag out, mag in, bolt forward. The MP5/10 is available with two bolt roller locking pieces (I forget if that's the absolute correct nomenclature) for high and low impulse 10mm ammo. With the "lite" 10mm ammo, the gun in action is hardly any different than the 9mm. The 10mm brass looks like popcorn when ejected -- cracked cases are not unusual. HK says this is normal!? Only time will tell if the 10mm and .40 versions will be as durable as the extremely robust 9mm guns.
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Old October 23, 1998, 11:09 PM   #19
4V50
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Neglected to mention one major tactical advantage of the MP5/10 & 40. Setting aside caliber, it's faster reloading.

With a MP5 in 9mm, you depress the magazine catch button or paddle and rip the magazine out. With the 10 or 40, engaging the button or paddle and gravity does the work. Your hand is freed faster to grab and insert a fresh magazine. This is one reason why (besides caliber) that I would insist on the larger caliber weapon.

Regarding the bolt hold open, an item missing on its earlier 9mm counterparts, I never waited until I ran dry before reloading.

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Old October 24, 1998, 07:34 AM   #20
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For what it's worth, the magazine release button was eliminated from the MP5/10 design, leaving only the paddle mag release.
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Old October 27, 1998, 01:24 PM   #21
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4V50,

From my experiences with the SP89 modified to MP5 size, that bloody thing is accurate.

Keeping all shots of a full 30 round clip, in single shot mode, on a man size target in the 10 zone is not a problem at 50 yrds. Only limit is how good the shooter is. So I don't have a hard time believing HK's claims, assuming the shooter is good enough.

I would hazard to guess that factory MP5's are even more accurate than the modified one that I tried.
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Old October 27, 1998, 02:28 PM   #22
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Hi Mute,

I imagine you're right about a PDW with the stock in the extended position. My only firing experience with a PDW type weapon was the MP5K which, unlike its American modified cousin, had no stock. The one I fired also had no sling so I didn't have that benefit when I shot it (so called SAS assault style).

Needless to say, I couldn't control the direction of a burst. About three hits was the best I could get on the target at about ten paces (full auto).

My friend, a German police officer, did no better. He has access to about a dozen MP5s in different configurations. He selected the MP5K for us to play with. Now, he works for 1 bureau (since then transferred to homicide) and there is something on the order of 11 other bureaus, each with a flimsy office cabinet which housed a similiar array of MP5s. The Germans aren't like Americans in that a SWAT member gets issued one gun, and trains with that same gun, and gets called out using that same gun. The Germans can trade off and take their fancy. Boy, sometimes the grass is really greener on the other side.

Now, the HK MP5 with a stock extended or fixed stock under full auto is a different story. The greatest distance I shot at in full auto was about 25 yards - and that was a short burst. (One thing I like about HK is that it is so easy to get a two or three shot burst off with just trigger control. You don't need the two or three shot burst group: just safe, single shot, and full auto. Also, it's easier on the armorer without those extra parts for the burst control - though the real tricky trigger group is the PSG-1 - and that's another story).

Keeping all the bullets on a stationary target is easy and fun in the single shot mode (most shots with the smg are single shot anyway). We shot at varying distances and the greatest was 75 yards. Everyone's MP5 was hitting consistently at that distance.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

4V50
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Old October 27, 1998, 06:52 PM   #23
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I'd have to agree with some of the others - with practice, it's easy to dump all 30 rounds on target at up to 75 feet. Of course I'm not hiding from return fire or anything, just doing the stationary thing at the range.

A much more difficult prospect is dumping an entire magazine from an HK53 on target at the same range! Haven't been able to do it yet.

danbrew :->
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Old November 6, 1998, 01:30 AM   #24
Talove
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I really like the MP-5 SD, more so with
a fixed stock, it gets hot burning up up
40 rd. clips. The MP-5K is a little Buzz
saw,would like to try it with the
folding stock and detachable can just
for comparison. The big advantage with
the Colt 9mm is there are so many
surplus Uzi clips out there that can be
modified to work. I'm currious if anyone
has done a Colt 45ACP conversion using
Uzi clips and the barrel off one of the
45 conversion uppers in 45 acp.
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Old November 6, 1998, 01:58 AM   #25
4V50 Gary
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I've shot the MP5 with both the fixed and collaspable stock. While I would prefer the collaspable (b/c it's cool), the fixed stock, being narrower is more comfortable to shoulder. It also allows you to bring the sight closer to your eye without canting your head as much.

In response to your inquiry Talove, Olympic Arms use to advertise (1997) a 9mm, 40S&W or 45 ACP conversion kit for their AR15. Haven't checked their website (check our links for AR15.com and you can link up to Olympic Arms from there) to see if its current.

Like I said about the Colt style smg, it works, but I hate the "boing" it makes when you shoot. The thought of Mighty Mattel comes to mind and I always break into a grin.
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