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Old February 8, 2005, 08:01 AM   #1
OBIWAN
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Stopping Power Bwaaaaahhhaaahaaaaa!

From John Farnam...for those inclined to argue calibers

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/03Feb05.html
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Old February 8, 2005, 10:09 AM   #2
12-34hom
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Care to try three 45acp to the noggin and see what results are....

It's all about shot placement - not caliber.

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This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. I must master itas i master my life.Without me my rifle is useless, without my rifle i am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I Will. Before God i swear this creed. My rifle and myself are defenders of my country. We are masters of our enemy. We are saviours of my life. So be it until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.
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Old February 8, 2005, 10:31 AM   #3
mete
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There is no miracle round ,forget the 'one shot stop', forget the 'double tap' , shoot and continue to shoot until the BG is no longer a threat. The shots have to be good hits , do damage to the vital organs. Caliber does matter since a 45 will do more damage than a 32 with the same hit. Farnam is one of the best instructors ,that's why I took his course !!
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Old February 8, 2005, 10:55 AM   #4
mathman
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Here we go again...I better sell all of my 45's tomorrow and start buying 9mm's since they are sooooooo much better...
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Old February 8, 2005, 01:38 PM   #5
FrankDrebin
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Quote:
It's all about shot placement - not caliber.
It's not ALL about ANYTHING....that's silly. If it were ALL about "shot placement" you wouldn't need anything other than a 2 shot .22 short. Good luck. Something as dynamic as a moving gunfight is about a lot more than just shot placement.
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Old February 8, 2005, 04:45 PM   #6
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You cannot miss fast enough to win a gunfight.
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Old February 8, 2005, 06:38 PM   #7
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Here we go again.
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Old February 8, 2005, 07:22 PM   #8
Double Naught Spy
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FrankDrebin did well to dispell one myth and it most certainly isn't all about shot placement. Let's try another...
Quote:
You cannot miss fast enough to win a gunfight.
Uh, sorry dude, but you most certainly can miss fast enough to win a gun fight. It happens all the time. Gun fights are not necessarily won by hitting an opponent, but by making the opponent convinced he can't win such that he stops being a threat, retreats, and/or surrenders. Even shots that miss can do this by making the opponent realize the threat to him.
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Old February 8, 2005, 07:30 PM   #9
Joint/Strike
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I doubt she would be laughing if the bullets would have been Hydra-Shocks instead of FMJ.
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Old February 8, 2005, 07:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
I doubt she would be laughing if the bullets would have been Hydra-Shocks instead of FMJ.
A-F*****-MEN
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Old February 8, 2005, 08:26 PM   #11
Goldy
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Quote: ALL PISTOL ROUNDS ARE PUNY

How many of you can throw a baseball at 55 mph? This makes IPSIC's major power factor. Most little leagers can do a lot better.

Yeah, I know a .45 has a lot less frontal area, but then a 9mm has even less.

Any way you figure it a common self-defense pistol is a poor choice for "stopping " power. There was an officer in NYC who hit a robber in the chest with all nine 00 buck and got shot twice in his vest before he cranked another into the perp.

I like the shop clerk in Kalifornia who shot a robber 18 times with a S&W 686. When the asked why he shot him 18 times he said " I ran out of speed loaders"

Shot well, and often. Goldy
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Old February 8, 2005, 08:48 PM   #12
OBIWAN
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Hydra shocks probably would not have mattered, and yes, you are missing the point.

There is NO magic bullet...(certainly not outdated designs like HS)

The Hydrashock would make a slightly bigger hole assuming it didn't plug, but there is NO reason to believe it would have penetrated as far...and certainly no farther.

John used to tell funny stories about people that had been shot multiple times and they fell down due to "graying out " blood loss.

Only to get back up when the blood ran back to their brain while they were horizontal

The lesson is....plan on making multiple well placed shots

And don't stand there looking surprised when the BG doesn't just fall down and die

Caliber is much LESS important than placement and frequency

What would have stopped her laughing would have been more torso hits!
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Old February 8, 2005, 09:35 PM   #13
MoW
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mathman

Here we go again...I better sell all of my 45's tomorrow and start buying 9mm's since they are sooooooo much better...

On the contrary mathman, 9mm is no better or no worse. That's the point, but soooo many believe the .45 is superior. You already have a .45 fine, but for those uninformed who are just buying guns or don't know, the answer is 9mm, .40 or .45 doesn't matter(1 in the same essentially). Goes with what gun fits you best. Some guns only come in 9mm or only .40 or .45. Don't choose a .40 that you shoot average or doesn't feel great over a 9mm just because you thing a .40 is a better stopper!
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Old February 8, 2005, 10:45 PM   #14
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"And don't stand there looking surprised when the BG doesn't just fall down and die."

Believe me, Obiwan, if I can slow the BG down for half a minute, I won't be
standing there looking surprised.
I'll be departing that scene so fast I'll leave a vapor trail.
I can call the cops from a mile away, I don't have to be standing around
being a target for the BG when he gets his second wind.

Walter
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Old February 8, 2005, 10:58 PM   #15
FrankDrebin
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Quote:
I can call the cops from a mile away, I don't have to be standing around
being a target for the BG when he gets his second wind.
I highly suggest you stick around long enough to make sure the bad guy's wallet and gun don't vanish after you shoot him. Next thing you know, you're on trial for felony murder.
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Old February 8, 2005, 11:11 PM   #16
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Congrats Walter...another afficianado of the NIKE defense

Run...don't walk away Brother!
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Old February 9, 2005, 04:39 AM   #17
Para Bellum
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Apples and Oranges

....it's always the same comparison of apples and oranges. Hardball ist nonsense-ammunition. Hollow-Points or EMFJ might have made a difference. Caliber most likely wouldn't. Defense-calibers all behave pretty much the same if you compare the same type of ammuntition. The only exeption is the .45 from a 1911, that one jammmmmms
(That's why I would chose a Glock to shoot 45's if....at....all....)
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Old February 9, 2005, 05:36 AM   #18
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Quote:
How many of you can throw a baseball at 55 mph? This makes IPSIC's major power factor. Most little leagers can do a lot better.
Someone may be onto something here; how about lead balls weighing twice as much as a baseball, and thrown at close quarters.
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Old February 9, 2005, 06:04 AM   #19
FrankDrebin
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What about a nice round like Keith developed with a flat point almost the same diameter as the whole bullet...I giant wadcutter that cuts a hole almost the same size of the bullet instead of punching a hole that closes right back up? In that case, caliber would absolutely matter a great deal.
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Old February 9, 2005, 06:31 AM   #20
Para Bellum
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caliber doesn't matter

9mm or 11,4mm (.45) or 10mm (.40) is not a significant difference in diameter. Diameter is totally irrelevant by the way. Velocity is much more important, see rifle ammunition....
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Old February 9, 2005, 07:23 AM   #21
OBIWAN
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Sigh.......

What STOPS people is either a hit to the Central Nervous System or nice deep wide holes that leak blood.

Velocity is important only in terms of getting the right penetration AND expansion.
(Rifle rounds are in a whole different class and even a rifle round is not always fatal)

A well performing 9MM bullet will create a fine wound track and a hit to the right place will put a person down.

But whatever the caliber, several good hits are likely to be required

like this case;

---------------------------------------------------------
Responding to a call of shots fired, two PVPD officers approached the perp from his driveway. Seeing he was armed with a rifle, the officers drew their hand weapons. The perp shouldered his Ruger Mini 14 .223 rifle and began firing at them.

The officers returned fire with their duty issue Glock 21s stoked with Winchester +P .45 Rangers.
The two officers hit the perp three times as he fired wildly at them.
He missed the officers completely, retreated into his house and began firing out through the walls. In total, he let off about 30 rounds that we know of.

The PVPD officers retreated to cover positions and called in PVPD SWAT.
Officers from PVPD, Yavapai County SO and Arizona DPS also responded to assist in containment. (This afflicted local traffic for several hours)

Once the SWAT mobile command center was set up, SWAT approached the house and found the perp inside, standing, bleeding profusely from several soon to be fatal chest and abdominal wounds, and demanded his surrender. Perp adamantly refused, but ultimately collapsed from his wounds.
Perp was medevaced out, and prounounced dead
------------------------------------------------------

Nice hot .45 caliber gold dots...and they worked...eventually
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Old February 9, 2005, 07:27 AM   #22
caegal
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I do not see how the article relates to caliber?? So the women was shot a few times in non-critical locations, what does this mean? I once got hit by a vega, and got up and walked around, does this mean that getting hit by vegas is not dangerous?

There are also a few things in the article that really makes me wonder about the accuracy of it.
First, it is a hemothorax, not a homothorax.
Second, there is no way that she will be back to her normal routine the next day, that is unless her normal routine is laying around the house.
Third, as for her joking with everyone, that seems pretty unlikely. There will be a significant amount of blood lost, as well as a bit of pain involved. Three half inch holes in a person normally takes away their sense of humor, unless she was in shock.

Yes, caliber matters. A larger hole allows for more bleeding, the more bleeding you can induce on the enemy the better. Sorry, but when it comes to bullets, size truly does make a differance.
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Old February 9, 2005, 07:33 AM   #23
tlm225
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Caliber does matter, even if comparing equal bullet designs and shot placement. The problem is that even at their best, no matter their caliber, handguns are poor people stoppers despite some occasional superb results. We carry them because they are the best compromise of power, concealability, portability and control. If I anticipate the possibility of a gun battle I wrap my paws around a bigger gun (12 gauge sounds about right).
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Old February 9, 2005, 07:47 AM   #24
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IMO, size must matter somewhat. It's just commonsense.
Think in terms of edged or pointed weapons: Which would you prefer to use? An ice pick, a stiletto, or a bowie knife--assuming these were the only three available to you?
The ice pick you could jab repeatedly very quickly, while the stiletto you could use about as easily (just about as much velocity?) as the ice pick but would do more damage and therefore be more effective. The bowie knife would be unwieldy and require more thrust (velocity?) but would do the most damage of all.
So why would it be any different for handgun rounds, since you're going for maximum damage to induce incapacitation?
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Old February 9, 2005, 09:52 AM   #25
12-34hom
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Quote:
What matters is hits to the central nervous system
So, shot placement does matter, if not - Frank please educate me as to your theories.

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This is my rifle. There are many like it, but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. I must master itas i master my life.Without me my rifle is useless, without my rifle i am useless. I must fire my rifle true. I must shoot straighter than my enemy who is trying to kill me. I must shoot him before he shoots me. I Will. Before God i swear this creed. My rifle and myself are defenders of my country. We are masters of our enemy. We are saviours of my life. So be it until there is no enemy, but peace. Amen.
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