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Old October 21, 1998, 01:38 PM   #1
Kodiac
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Any one have any special thoughts about Machine Pistols? MAC 10s, Micro Uzis and the like. There is the new Steyer unit... very nasty looking and probably very fun to shoot. The most fun gun on the planet is probably the Skorpion - full auto .32. I shot one at Ft Benning and it has been my favorite ever since for shear pointless joy time fun. Most any gun can be real fun... but it just took the cake.
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Old October 21, 1998, 10:07 PM   #2
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Specialised firearms which are excellant for dignitary protection. Small, concealable, extremely high rate of fire and controllable if the operator takes the time to practice and master it. Strictly close in work unlike the over 100 yard capability of the MP5 in 40 or 10mm.

Worked with an ex-soviet naval infantryman who became persona non grata prior to the collaspe and is now American in heart. Having worked dignitary protection (for some socialist swine in the Ukraine), he also concurs in its application of machine pistols.
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Old October 22, 1998, 03:49 PM   #3
Kodiac
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Also good for making flashy gun fighting scenes in movies...
Like in the movie FACE OFF, where Caster Troy (one of the coolest and slickest armed movie bad guys) hoses Sean Archer with a russian machine pistol. But the Hero jumps out of the way of course. The prop guy actually said that the gun was too cool for a good guy to have. Didn't the same actor use a machine pistol - the beretta 92 looking one... in the movie Broken Arrow? Aren't they both directed by John Woo? Woo LOVES his handguns, and there will be a lot of them in any of his movies.

[This message has been edited by Kodiac (edited 10-22-98).]
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Old October 23, 1998, 09:22 PM   #4
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Hmm, dignitary protection would seem to be the only niche that I can really think of for machine pistols. The Glock 18 or Beretta 93R, for example, have such high rates of fire that it's hard to carry a decent supply of ammo for serious suppression fire. The HK MP5 PDW, on the other hand, can also be toted around, but can extend its stock to become a serious fighting tool for extended ranges (beyond interior CQB).
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Old October 27, 1998, 01:45 PM   #5
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I had the unsavory collateral duty of providing personal protection to visiting high profile VIPs that wanted to go rubbernecking in the carnage of Kuwait and southern Iraq, immediately following the cessation of hostilities. Of all the weapons to which I had access from the underground, the MP5K was my choice. However, it severely lacked the desired control for both burst and sustained fires that would have been provided by a PDW type stock. As a result of these experiences, I enthusiastically support Hilton’s assertions, and consider the PDW as currently the best evolution of the machine pistol.

[This message has been edited by Mykl (edited 10-27-98).]
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Old October 27, 1998, 02:27 PM   #6
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The PDW is a great little device... but I think the P-90 would have it beat due to it being smaller (when the PDW is shouldered), the more controllable RPM rate, and the supeirior ballistics of its cartridge.
I fired the PDW and frankly would prefer a "full sized" MP5. But we are talking SMGs here and have gone beyond the Machine Pistol topic... PDW being an albeit small SMG, a SMG none the less.
I know this sounds stupid - but perhaps a Glock 18 chambered for .380 would be ideal. Since the 9MM needs a great deal of practice to master. A .380 version would be much easier to control.
Imagine this - a fully auto Glock in .380 based on a Glock 19 sized frame. Gives you a lot more concealment options than a PDW, controlable, and you're seconds away from a nice long 30 round stick magazine when the fecal hits the fan. I'ld buy one. Because I can't hit very well with an '18...
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Old October 29, 1998, 12:25 PM   #7
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While I haven't had as much experience with the HKs as you guys have, I can tell you that after a hour with a good instructor, Full clips from the G-18 into a man sized target from 10-15 feet are easily doable. three round bursts also come pretty quick, once you get the rythym. An 18 with the folding stock unit that is available (aftermarket) would be hard to beat.
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Old October 29, 1998, 08:23 PM   #8
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While not a bullet hose, the Kel-Tec Sub-9 fits nicely into a quick reaction plan, going from a 16" platform to a fast handling carbine. I envisioned it filling the niche you gentlemen are describing quite well (I would be so bold as to suggest better than most of the machine pistols), and for much less. Being able to use the same magazines as your duty 9 is an added bonus, and one that is potentially invaluable.
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Old October 29, 1998, 10:44 PM   #9
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Thanks Spectre for remembering an overlooked gun. Too bad it isn't selective fire.

The Kel Tec does have some positive aspects going for it. Its compactness makes it a prime candidate for concealment. Shared magazines with the pistol is another feature favoring its adoption.

Besides selective fire, what would be nice is a shoulder holster akin to HK's PDW holster - one that unfolds the stock and locks it into position while the weapon is being deployed.

Since I favor the high shoulder position for pistol calibre carbines, I don't really like the Kel Tec's butt. A HK91/93 collaspable stock butt is more natural for mounting of the firearm in this manner. For those of you unfamiliar with the high shoulder position, it brings the gun sight closer to eye level and requires less tilting of the operator's head, thereby preserving as much peripheral vision as possible.

If Kel Tec makes a model to take a 10mm Glock magazine, I'd bring one home.
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Old October 30, 1998, 06:03 PM   #10
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I have pestered Kel-tec to make a .45 Super single-column...I can dream, can't I?
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Old November 5, 1998, 12:44 AM   #11
yoni
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I work with a micro uzi that I have put an M16 pistol grip on the barrel to give me more control when firing full auto and it works very well.The microalso allows me to obtain hits out to 150 meters. It is not a HK MP5K but it is the best I have here in Israel.
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Old November 5, 1998, 12:57 AM   #12
Rob Pincus
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Yoni, What kind of effectiveness are you getting from a 5 inch barreled 9mm at over 160 yards??? If I may ask...
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Old November 8, 1998, 08:57 AM   #13
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I don't know what you mean by effectiveness but as far as accuracy it's no problem keeping all the rounds on a target of a terrorist. If by effectiveness you mean terminal effects of a 9mm at 150 meters I have no dought the bad guy is not going to say it doesn't hurt it is only a 9mm. Put the lead,on target his dead or wishing he was.
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Old November 9, 1998, 03:54 AM   #14
4V50 Gary
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Yoni,

Please describe your technique for shooting at 150 metres. Specifically, sustained fire, burst fire (if burst, how many), semi-automatic? Do you use a sling? Where do you mount the weapon? (Shoulder (high or low), chest, underarm, hip?) Sights? Size of target? Thanks.

Gary
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Old November 9, 1998, 07:56 AM   #15
yoni
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All firing at distance is done semi automatic, at distance up to 100 meters shooting standing is not problem past that then I go to kneeling or prone.
Even at close distance less than 10-15 meters I tend to use semi auto going for double taps.
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