OMG!! Ignorance at it's finest....

theHULK9281 · February 2, 2005, 01:26 AM

I don't know if I can post this link or not, so mods please delete if it's not appropriate, but I just had to share this with you guys/gals.......

http://www.musclesci.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8690

Kayser · February 2, 2005, 01:51 AM

Eh, that guy was clearly trolling. Unfortunately, he got quite a few bites. Heck, even for a troll his arguments were brazenly self-contradicting: Why do people go to shooting ranges - after all if you can't hit something at 10 yards you shouldn't be allowed to own a gun. (wha??) Then, in the face of cogent, clearly defined answers he fires back with veiled insults and "Ok, I see where this is going, set minds, set lifes, cant change em, dont want to". ::shrug::

Probably the greatest explanation for irrational fear of guns is people's inherent fear that everyone out there intends to kill them. You ask someone: "Why should you be afraid if I own a gun?" and they reply "Because you might kill me!" or some variant. About 0.35 seconds of thought reveals that if I really had a burning desire to kill you, I could waltz right into work with a softball bat and brain you while you're staring at your monitor. Or take a knife from the office kitchen and do the same. No background check required :/ You might be able to make an argument that firearms make mass murder more easy, but the episodes of mass murder are so retardedly few you can't use it as anything more than a purely emotional argument.

It's bizarre, but it's conditioned into people. It's trivially easy to present the 0-th order argument that "guns are only meant to kill". Most people have amazingly unanalyzed beliefs of all kinds. The "duh" factor of simplistic gun arguments is such that most people don't feel the need to think much further. And then of course you throw in the standard stereotypes - evil white racists, rednecks, foaming survivalists, paranoid Koresh types and it becomes "obvious" to all the intelligentsia.

As far as I can tell, it's about 99.9% impossible to shift someone's view on guns purely through debate. Either they have to experience a situation where a gun, in the hand of a private citizen saves lives, or they need to be exposed to an extremely positive range shooting experience. Lure them to the range - pay for the ammo - shower them with all the gun safety rules - give them a light and fun gun to shoot - show them that they're not dealing with red faced lunatics just waiting to kill others - basically break as many negative preconceptions they have with direct experience. If you can get them even marginally intrigued, they may just look up gun laws on the internet to figure out what they'd need to do to buy one. They'll be shocked once they see how rigged things are to turn them into inadvertent criminals. This might be jarring enough to shake some sense into them.

Priest · February 2, 2005, 02:22 AM

On a side note, the second poster's avatar ("My family was killed by ninjas...") is pretty funny.

P-990 · February 2, 2005, 10:04 AM

Major troll. My favorite part was where he was SOOO confident he could hit something with a handgun even though he's never fired one before. Definite macho-thing to not admit you don't know everything about weapons. I've seen practiced and very experienced shooters miss with pistols when stressed under the clock. I've even seen Master-level Highpower shooters take misses at the 200 yard line, so nothing is a given.

n3twrkm4n · February 2, 2005, 05:43 PM

I find it funny reading that article and the responses it recieved... they were almost as ignorant as the person asking the question.

However there are some people out there that should not be allowed weapons just by the sheer nature of the way they act.

As a little background, I am a New York state resident, Saratoga County. Our requirements for a pistol permit around here are not the most strict but we do of course have to take an NRA safety course and pass the basic practical. (whoopie).

During our class we were passing this old Marlin around which was RESTORED from complete rust, when the instructor was talking about maintenance so I pass it along to my friend next to me and he in turn passes to this woman on the end. What does she immediately do? Point that muzzle right at my head... I became a little un-easy while she was flailing that rifle around just for the fact of the matter, whether it was unloaded or not.

The instructor HAD to see this and did not say a damn word... now if she can't control a long gun, why/how should she be able to have a pistol? What will she do with that? (the pistol)

As a next example we had this one gentleman who seemed like a nice guy, one of the one's that full of questions all the time so he raised his hand like 10,000 times during our class. However; when it comes time to take the basic practical at the end of the class 7 people are on the line, sitting position, resting their AIR pistol on the counter-top. So the range officer says 'commence fire' and all I hear is TING!. This guy completely missed the backdrop, clipboard, paper and walls. He hit the ceiling... I don't know how the hell he did it, but he did. Now does he deserve a gun? And I believe he said he was going to become a security guard.

It was scary for me that even the instructors (one tipping 70+ years) was swinging this old single-six and this sw 44mag around at the students when trying to demonstrate how to use the ejector rod. A few of my comrads in the class took steps away from this instructor because obviously he was not teaching the truth in safety.

I guess there is no real replacement for early off training in firearms. I was taught at the age of 6-7 how to shoot, started with the Ruger .22 semiautomatic and the .22 Magnum bolt action from Savage Arms. My father taught me safety and proper gun handling and when I got a little older and froggier he let me fire his Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum.

I think ignorance is the problem in all cases of firearm mishaps. And the funny thing is Vick (if anyone knows him in Saratoga County) said that he isn't worried about the new people hurting themselves or other's. He's worried about the people that have been shooting for a long time.

I guess it's like the drunk driver scenario, the drunk driver almost never get's killed but he does and will kill others. Same thing as these unsafe new people are swinging their guns around they will not hurt people, why? Statistics I guess but who knows.

Maybe there will be a time where ignorance will be further and far between but I doubt it. That is why till this day I treat every one of my firearms as if it was the first day I was firing it.

The End - Novel Over!

Slateman · February 2, 2005, 06:48 PM

I'd love to answer that, but I really don't see the point in registering for one post.

orionengnr · February 2, 2005, 09:28 PM

if I were to register just to answer one post, I think I'd have started along the lines of,

"Then why would you need to go to the gym? Judging from the fact that most of you have pics of (purportedly) yourselves next to your posts, you OBVIOUSLY know how to lift weights already!!"

Right?

N.H. Yankee · February 3, 2005, 10:26 AM

Typical LIBERAL BS! I dont bother debating Liberals, its like visiting the insane asylum.

Slateman · February 3, 2005, 04:41 PM

Actually orionengnr , I was gonna go with, "Why do you have differnt types of weights at the gym? Why can't you just have one?" and "How does lifting weights help you in the real world? I can't ever remember having to lift a barbell at work . . . ."

Lord_Nikon · February 3, 2005, 05:04 PM

Well thank you, N. H. Yankee, I didn't realize that I could do that to a person.

<-------Gun owning liberal.

cabghunter · February 3, 2005, 07:20 PM

Actually orionengnr , I was gonna go with, "Why do you have differnt types of weights at the gym? Why can't you just have one?" and "How does lifting weights help you in the real world? I can't ever remember having to lift a barbell at work . . . ."

LOL........LOL this is funny!!!!

Jack Malloy · February 7, 2005, 11:29 AM

A friend of mine has a funny story about the time that a member of the UK football team walked into Bud and Ernie's gunshop on Industry Road in Lexington, Kentucky back in the 80s.
he wanted the Most Powerful Handgun in the World. The clerk asked him if had ever shot a handgun. Of course, he hadn't. The clerk tried to talk him into a nice .357, but Mr Macho had to have the most powerful which was a .454 Cassul.
They special ordered the thing for him.
Moral of the story. It was in the trade in box the next day, with one round of ammo missing. Football hero sheepishly traded it for a Colt python.

beenthere · February 7, 2005, 12:43 PM

I probably shouldn't admit to being so extravegant but I actually have 2 45's. One is a really big 1950 S&W 45 target job and one is just a big surplus Colt 45ACP. I also have to admit that I own a set of "Champagne Tony Lema" (For you old enough to remember) irons. That in spite of having seen on TV a man play an entire round of golf and do it quite respectively with just a five iron.

Of couse by the argument offered life could get a bit simpler. If you couldn't hit the ball 225 yards the first time you picked up a golf club you really shouldn't own them. If you couldn't drive a car like Mario Andretti the first time behind the wheel you shouldn't drive; take the bus or a cab and let the pro's do the driving and even he should only have one car. You can use your Ruger 10/22 for the Biathlon, lift one weight, have one baseball bat instead of different weights, own one skillet and never exhibit the extravegance of owning ta narrow and wide hoe for the garden.

I think I have a bad taste in my mouth.

February 2, 2005, 01:26 AM	#1
theHULK9281 Member Join Date: October 4, 2004 Posts: 19	OMG!! Ignorance at it's finest.... I don't know if I can post this link or not, so mods please delete if it's not appropriate, but I just had to share this with you guys/gals....... http://www.musclesci.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8690 __________________ 56th Stryker Brigade: Strike hard, strike fast. If you can't baffle them with brilliance, riddle them with bullet holes. (Unknown) A man who won't die for something is not fit to live. (MLK)

February 2, 2005, 10:04 AM	#4
P-990 Senior Member Join Date: May 2, 2002 Location: Only1/2WayThere Posts: 1,031	Major troll. My favorite part was where he was SOOO confident he could hit something with a handgun even though he's never fired one before. Definite macho-thing to not admit you don't know everything about weapons. I've seen practiced and very experienced shooters miss with pistols when stressed under the clock. I've even seen Master-level Highpower shooters take misses at the 200 yard line, so nothing is a given. __________________ NRA Master, Highpower Rifle, Across-the-Course NRA Expert, Highpower Rifle, Mid-Range Prone

February 2, 2005, 09:28 PM	#7
orionengnr Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2004 Posts: 4,878	considering the source, if I were to register just to answer one post, I think I'd have started along the lines of, "Then why would you need to go to the gym? Judging from the fact that most of you have pics of (purportedly) yourselves next to your posts, you OBVIOUSLY know how to lift weights already!!" Right?

February 3, 2005, 10:26 AM	#8
N.H. Yankee Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2004 Location: Rural N.H. Posts: 1,586	Typical LIBERAL BS! I dont bother debating Liberals, its like visiting the insane asylum. __________________ The real danger to America is not abroad but within.. Having an open mind is a good thing, but not so open that your brains fall out! Save America, abort liberalism.

February 3, 2005, 05:04 PM	#10
Lord_Nikon Senior Member Join Date: September 14, 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 401	Well thank you, N. H. Yankee, I didn't realize that I could do that to a person. <-------Gun owning liberal. __________________ Despite the cost of living, have you noticed how it remains so popular?

February 2, 2005, 01:51 AM	#2
Kayser Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2002 Location: Illinois :( Posts: 551	Eh, that guy was clearly trolling. Unfortunately, he got quite a few bites. Heck, even for a troll his arguments were brazenly self-contradicting: Why do people go to shooting ranges - after all if you can't hit something at 10 yards you shouldn't be allowed to own a gun. (wha??) Then, in the face of cogent, clearly defined answers he fires back with veiled insults and "Ok, I see where this is going, set minds, set lifes, cant change em, dont want to". ::shrug:: Probably the greatest explanation for irrational fear of guns is people's inherent fear that everyone out there intends to kill them. You ask someone: "Why should you be afraid if I own a gun?" and they reply "Because you might kill me!" or some variant. About 0.35 seconds of thought reveals that if I really had a burning desire to kill you, I could waltz right into work with a softball bat and brain you while you're staring at your monitor. Or take a knife from the office kitchen and do the same. No background check required :/ You might be able to make an argument that firearms make mass murder more easy, but the episodes of mass murder are so retardedly few you can't use it as anything more than a purely emotional argument. It's bizarre, but it's conditioned into people. It's trivially easy to present the 0-th order argument that "guns are only meant to kill". Most people have amazingly unanalyzed beliefs of all kinds. The "duh" factor of simplistic gun arguments is such that most people don't feel the need to think much further. And then of course you throw in the standard stereotypes - evil white racists, rednecks, foaming survivalists, paranoid Koresh types and it becomes "obvious" to all the intelligentsia. As far as I can tell, it's about 99.9% impossible to shift someone's view on guns purely through debate. Either they have to experience a situation where a gun, in the hand of a private citizen saves lives, or they need to be exposed to an extremely positive range shooting experience. Lure them to the range - pay for the ammo - shower them with all the gun safety rules - give them a light and fun gun to shoot - show them that they're not dealing with red faced lunatics just waiting to kill others - basically break as many negative preconceptions they have with direct experience. If you can get them even marginally intrigued, they may just look up gun laws on the internet to figure out what they'd need to do to buy one. They'll be shocked once they see how rigged things are to turn them into inadvertent criminals. This might be jarring enough to shake some sense into them.

February 2, 2005, 02:22 AM	#3
Priest Junior Member Join Date: January 31, 2005 Posts: 14	On a side note, the second poster's avatar ("My family was killed by ninjas...") is pretty funny.

February 2, 2005, 05:43 PM	#5
n3twrkm4n Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2004 Posts: 629	I find it funny reading that article and the responses it recieved... they were almost as ignorant as the person asking the question. However there are some people out there that should not be allowed weapons just by the sheer nature of the way they act. As a little background, I am a New York state resident, Saratoga County. Our requirements for a pistol permit around here are not the most strict but we do of course have to take an NRA safety course and pass the basic practical. (whoopie). During our class we were passing this old Marlin around which was RESTORED from complete rust, when the instructor was talking about maintenance so I pass it along to my friend next to me and he in turn passes to this woman on the end. What does she immediately do? Point that muzzle right at my head... I became a little un-easy while she was flailing that rifle around just for the fact of the matter, whether it was unloaded or not. The instructor HAD to see this and did not say a damn word... now if she can't control a long gun, why/how should she be able to have a pistol? What will she do with that? (the pistol) As a next example we had this one gentleman who seemed like a nice guy, one of the one's that full of questions all the time so he raised his hand like 10,000 times during our class. However; when it comes time to take the basic practical at the end of the class 7 people are on the line, sitting position, resting their AIR pistol on the counter-top. So the range officer says 'commence fire' and all I hear is TING!. This guy completely missed the backdrop, clipboard, paper and walls. He hit the ceiling... I don't know how the hell he did it, but he did. Now does he deserve a gun? And I believe he said he was going to become a security guard. It was scary for me that even the instructors (one tipping 70+ years) was swinging this old single-six and this sw 44mag around at the students when trying to demonstrate how to use the ejector rod. A few of my comrads in the class took steps away from this instructor because obviously he was not teaching the truth in safety. I guess there is no real replacement for early off training in firearms. I was taught at the age of 6-7 how to shoot, started with the Ruger .22 semiautomatic and the .22 Magnum bolt action from Savage Arms. My father taught me safety and proper gun handling and when I got a little older and froggier he let me fire his Ruger Redhawk .44 Magnum. I think ignorance is the problem in all cases of firearm mishaps. And the funny thing is Vick (if anyone knows him in Saratoga County) said that he isn't worried about the new people hurting themselves or other's. He's worried about the people that have been shooting for a long time. I guess it's like the drunk driver scenario, the drunk driver almost never get's killed but he does and will kill others. Same thing as these unsafe new people are swinging their guns around they will not hurt people, why? Statistics I guess but who knows. Maybe there will be a time where ignorance will be further and far between but I doubt it. That is why till this day I treat every one of my firearms as if it was the first day I was firing it. The End - Novel Over!

February 2, 2005, 06:48 PM	#6
Slateman Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2005 Location: Northern VA Posts: 323	I'd love to answer that, but I really don't see the point in registering for one post.

February 3, 2005, 04:41 PM	#9
Slateman Senior Member Join Date: January 30, 2005 Location: Northern VA Posts: 323	Actually orionengnr , I was gonna go with, "Why do you have differnt types of weights at the gym? Why can't you just have one?" and "How does lifting weights help you in the real world? I can't ever remember having to lift a barbell at work . . . ."

February 3, 2005, 07:20 PM	#11
cabghunter Junior Member Join Date: February 3, 2005 Posts: 5	Actually orionengnr , I was gonna go with, "Why do you have differnt types of weights at the gym? Why can't you just have one?" and "How does lifting weights help you in the real world? I can't ever remember having to lift a barbell at work . . . ." LOL........LOL this is funny!!!!

February 7, 2005, 11:29 AM	#12
Jack Malloy Senior Member Join Date: February 3, 2005 Posts: 791	A friend of mine has a funny story about the time that a member of the UK football team walked into Bud and Ernie's gunshop on Industry Road in Lexington, Kentucky back in the 80s. he wanted the Most Powerful Handgun in the World. The clerk asked him if had ever shot a handgun. Of course, he hadn't. The clerk tried to talk him into a nice .357, but Mr Macho had to have the most powerful which was a .454 Cassul. They special ordered the thing for him. Moral of the story. It was in the trade in box the next day, with one round of ammo missing. Football hero sheepishly traded it for a Colt python.

February 7, 2005, 12:43 PM	#13
beenthere Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2004 Location: NE Indiana Posts: 460	I probably shouldn't admit to being so extravegant but I actually have 2 45's. One is a really big 1950 S&W 45 target job and one is just a big surplus Colt 45ACP. I also have to admit that I own a set of "Champagne Tony Lema" (For you old enough to remember) irons. That in spite of having seen on TV a man play an entire round of golf and do it quite respectively with just a five iron. Of couse by the argument offered life could get a bit simpler. If you couldn't hit the ball 225 yards the first time you picked up a golf club you really shouldn't own them. If you couldn't drive a car like Mario Andretti the first time behind the wheel you shouldn't drive; take the bus or a cab and let the pro's do the driving and even he should only have one car. You can use your Ruger 10/22 for the Biathlon, lift one weight, have one baseball bat instead of different weights, own one skillet and never exhibit the extravegance of owning ta narrow and wide hoe for the garden. I think I have a bad taste in my mouth.